ParanetOnline
McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: The Deposed King on February 16, 2012, 07:29:36 AM
-
On another thread I comment on what I've read from other authors. And it all comes down to this sort of Zen like acceptance of the crap we write and the need to let yourself write with the intention of coming back later to fix it during your 2nd and 3rd draft editing.
Here are a couple of links. the first is on acceptance. The other was a nice little article on Showing versus Telling.
http://www.ilona-andrews.com/writing-tricks/writing-crap#comments
http://www.ilona-andrews.com/writing-tricks/articles/show-dont-tell
Essentially if you are posting here, instead of on your own forum or blog. And even if you are already a published author, you will look at your work and say ick. Its the second and third passes after you've put the words down that make an exciting book people want to read. For the most part anyway.
The Deposed King
-
Perfect! So I'm not paranoid when I "guard" what I'm working on and when I don't say anything to anyone about working on anything other than that "I've been writing." It makes a lot of sense -- that whole cliche about two many "heads in the kitchen" or whatever it was (I might be mixing clichés)
Also loved the advice on revising. That's been something I've been struggling with because every time I go back, I want to rip, rip, rip apart, which I've very slowly discovered is its own little "sickness" :P
-
When I first took up writing after a hiatus of many years, I struggled a LOT with the idea that it had to be perfect right out of the starting gate. It took a while to convince myself that the edit buttons were there for a reason, and it was OK to write crap the first time around. (And I refuse to show my work to anyone unless it's up to a certain level, so I don't think the conventional writing workshop environment would work well for me.)
-
I tend to gravitate towards "showing" I suspect, mainly because it's more fun and gives me greater opportunities to do amusing things with my character's inner monologues. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't go back through what I've written so far and look for obvious, dull telling, where it would be better to some showing. Thanks for the links.
I'm not sure how much Drek I produce. (Although since this, my first foray into painting with words, is basically as Star Trek fanfic that gradually shifts to my own original Trek characters, there are those who would argue that I'm Drekking by definition.... Hey, I like Star Trek, and I want more stories to happen there.) *Puts on his Fighting Trousers.* ;)
Anyway, I tend to spin through the whole story, constantly in daydream cycle. Envisioning, wording, re-wording, coming up with key scenes and (to me) killer lines that I jot down to use later. I basically do rewrite after rewrite in my head, then when things go "KA-CHUNK!" into place, I sit down and hammer out a chapter or scene. I still go back and polish and massage, then ship things off to my valued Tell Me If This Sucks Team of Experts. (I pay Shecky in beef jerky. Which reminds me I owe him a shipment.) Then I implement or address the fixes, changes or corrections they point out to me, but at that point it's not what I'd call a re-write.
-
Perfect! So I'm not paranoid when I "guard" what I'm working on and when I don't say anything to anyone about working on anything other than that "I've been writing." It makes a lot of sense -- that whole cliche about two many "heads in the kitchen" or whatever it was (I might be mixing clichés)
Also loved the advice on revising. That's been something I've been struggling with because every time I go back, I want to rip, rip, rip apart, which I've very slowly discovered is its own little "sickness" :P
I recieved some advice once.
"It boils down to don't cast pearls before swine"
If you have what you think is a pearl, don't put it in front of someone who is a swine and won't appreciate it. You need someone who will appreciate what you're doing not automatically dump on it.
Now that doesn't mean that what you don't won't fail and fail spectacularly. Nor that at some point you don't need some critisizing. But when you are just getting started you need support and encouragement otherwise you'll give up. Enthusiasm for an idea can carry you a long way all by its lonesome.
So don't go casting your pearls before swine and being surprised and discouraged when they poop all over it. That's why you avoid the swine.
On the other hand. Being a writer involves being told your stuff sucks. Its the only way you're stuff will get good enough to be put out there and succeed. So ra ra team until its done, then its find someone you can trust, to give you the down low. I've found for myself that creating and editing require two different mindsets. Never the two should twine. Or at least not very often. Editing kills creativity. But editing is essential to producing something you can be proud of. Conversely if you edit before its created most of us will lose our momentum and stop.
Its tricky.
Good luck with what you're doing.
The Deposed King
-
I tend to gravitate towards "showing" I suspect, mainly because it's more fun and gives me greater opportunities to do amusing things with my character's inner monologues. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't go back through what I've written so far and look for obvious, dull telling, where it would be better to some showing. Thanks for the links.
I'm not sure how much Drek I produce. (Although since this, my first foray into painting with words, is basically as Star Trek fanfic that gradually shifts to my own original Trek characters, there are those who would argue that I'm Drekking by definition.... Hey, I like Star Trek, and I want more stories to happen there.) *Puts on his Fighting Trousers.* ;)
Anyway, I tend to spin through the whole story, constantly in daydream cycle. Envisioning, wording, re-wording, coming up with key scenes and (to me) killer lines that I jot down to use later. I basically do rewrite after rewrite in my head, then when things go "KA-CHUNK!" into place, I sit down and hammer out a chapter or scene. I still go back and polish and massage, then ship things off to my valued Tell Me If This Sucks Team of Experts. (I pay Shecky in beef jerky. Which reminds me I owe him a shipment.) Then I implement or address the fixes, changes or corrections they point out to me, but at that point it's not what I'd call a re-write.
If it works, don't stop and don't listen to anything that suggests you should change. Keep it up!!!
That said, if it doesn't work. Listen to Einstine and make a change.
have a blast,
The Deposed King
-
On the other hand. Being a writer involves being told your stuff sucks. Its the only way you're stuff will get good enough to be put out there and succeed. So ra ra team until its done, then its find someone you can trust, to give you the down low. I've found for myself that creating and editing require two different mindsets. Never the two should twine. Or at least not very often. Editing kills creativity. But editing is essential to producing something you can be proud of. Conversely if you edit before its created most of us will lose our momentum and stop.
The Deposed King
You know, that is such simple and obvious advice, but it's something I'd never even thought about before. The past umpteen years, I've been doing a few completely different types of writing, one of which benefited from constant revision i.e. whenever I got stuck moving forward, I could go back and revise as I gathered my thoughts. It didn't throw anything off, but just let me collect my thoughts and solidfy things. Obviously, it was not fiction because, returning to fiction the past few months, I've realized my former method just does not work at all. And you are right, the editing is killing the creativity. I'm really not progressing when I go back, but looking for all the flaws. Without the "whole picture" completed, my mental editor just says "this might not be good--change it" over and over :P
-
You know, that is such simple and obvious advice, but it's something I'd never even thought about before. The past umpteen years, I've been doing a few completely different types of writing, one of which benefited from constant revision i.e. whenever I got stuck moving forward, I could go back and revise as I gathered my thoughts. It didn't throw anything off, but just let me collect my thoughts and solidfy things. Obviously, it was not fiction because, returning to fiction the past few months, I've realized my former method just does not work at all. And you are right, the editing is killing the creativity. I'm really not progressing when I go back, but looking for all the flaws. Without the "whole picture" completed, my mental editor just says "this might not be good--change it" over and over :P
Glad if anything |'ve said is helpful.
In another thread, or maybe its this one. I wrote that you have to be willing to write the Drek and produce the stink bomb, after which you can then go back and put the puff on it. Turning your ugly duckling into a peudious flower.
Editing is vital, don't get me wrong. But it seems easier to go back and tweak thousands of words a day than it is to fire up the old creative juices and put thousands of words to processor. That's why I say don't let anyone, not even yourself, get you down.
Line by line tweaking is great. Its helpful, and if you've been away from teh story for weeks or months, maybe necessary to remember everything that's gone on. But for me, if I edit too much, I'll never get anywhere. I tear out as little as possible, after I get past the first 10k word. by 10k I've mostly got my concept down and its time to flow it all out onto paper. I can come back later and fix.
Not to say that if you already have a working process you should change. If it works don't fix it. If its not...
I wish you every success,
Remember to always follow the dream,
The Deposed King
-
Yeah, I definitely did a fair bit of drek today. I actually did go back and eliminate an entire conversation where a character was comparing herself to spaghetti-os. But, I fiercely went with it as long as I could :D
-
Yeah, I definitely did a fair bit of drek today. I actually did go back and eliminate an entire conversation where a character was comparing herself to spaghetti-os. But, I fiercely went with it as long as I could :D
;D
For me I try to not to eliminate. If comparing herself to spaghetti-os is not good. Try something different or wait until the edititing team comes on board. Then puff those spegetti-os into some super cool platinum fixture of your book.
Or not. hey its your book and you need to make it how you want it.
I'm just adverse to deletions. Revising, morphing, etc are all in my hand book. Deletion... makes me shudder, unless it really is the Drek.
The Deposed King
-
Yeah, I'm not so good at deleting. Instead, it ends up in a file labeled "xxcutmaterial" because maybe I'll go back to it. I never do, but hey, I'm a file pack-rat!
-
Yeah, I'm not so good at deleting. Instead, it ends up in a file labeled "xxcutmaterial" because maybe I'll go back to it. I never do, but hey, I'm a file pack-rat!
Sounds like you've got it well in hand.
Keep up the good work and when the fails... take a page from the crab fishermen and go on the grind.
The Deposed King
-
I grinded today (that really should be a real word." I am very proud to announce that I completely realize the first half of my last chapter was completely forced drek :P I had an idea that I don't think really fits anymore, but damn it, I was gonna write it :D
-
I grinded today (that really should be a real word." I am very proud to announce that I completely realize the first half of my last chapter was completely forced drek :P I had an idea that I don't think really fits anymore, but damn it, I was gonna write it :D
I think the proper word is ground but whose keeping score :o, certainly not me :-X
Best of luck with your writing.
The Deposed King
-
On another thread I comment on what I've read from other authors. And it all comes down to this sort of Zen like acceptance of the crap we write and the need to let yourself write with the intention of coming back later to fix it during your 2nd and 3rd draft editing.
Here are a couple of links. the first is on acceptance. The other was a nice little article on Showing versus Telling.
http://www.ilona-andrews.com/writing-tricks/writing-crap#comments
http://www.ilona-andrews.com/writing-tricks/articles/show-dont-tell
Essentially if you are posting here, instead of on your own forum or blog. And even if you are already a published author, you will look at your work and say ick. Its the second and third passes after you've put the words down that make an exciting book people want to read. For the most part anyway.
The Deposed King
Oh wow man, thank you very much. Those articles were a tremendous help, just the Show v. Help thing alone was amazing. The other was like icing on the cake!
Is there anyway we could get a "Tips and Tricks" sticky with links like those two for us struggling yet still aspiring writers?
By the way, I'm bad about using the "Tell" too damned much. Really bad. Thankfully knowing what the problem is will fix it.
I could never figure out why my writing was always so....abrupt. Dry even. I could take a scene where Harry Dresden is slagging demons with pillars of soul fire and still manage to wring all of the humor and feeling out of it.
Damned work, I blame them!
-
I think Panesgrey or MickyFinn are who you want to ask, if you're talking about a permanent thread.
I think I have one or two more links around here somewhere.
Have you seen either of these already?
http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/4217.html
http://bar.baen.com/categories.aspx?catid=48.
The one if from Jim Butcher himself and as such when looking into these kinds of things, ecouragement, advice, etc nothing speaks better to the subject than the man himself.
The other is the Baen publisher, baen's bar site. You might need to sign up but basically they tell you what they are looking for in a manuscript.
If you've already seen them sorry. But since you seemed to be asking...
The Deposed King
-
Just out of curiosity, do you think that a person can have too much dialogue? Somehow, with the project I'm working on, the dialogue is flowing. The description and passages in between, not so much, but I know I can go back to that. However, I am very heavy on the dialogue and wondering if that is going to be a problem. That and trying to figure out why dialogue is coming so easy.
-
I'll ask Mickey about putting up a sticky. I don't have those permissions outside The Bar as I'm just a bottom tier worker bee. 8)
-
Just out of curiosity, do you think that a person can have too much dialogue? Somehow, with the project I'm working on, the dialogue is flowing. The description and passages in between, not so much, but I know I can go back to that. However, I am very heavy on the dialogue and wondering if that is going to be a problem. That and trying to figure out why dialogue is coming so easy.
I say the more dialogue the better. But I suppose its like anything else. too much of a good thing...
IMO - put in all teh dialogue you can, if that's what's flowing. If there isn't enough descriptors and scenery you can always add it later in the edit. The most important thing is to stay on a roll. One good description of a thing is often enough. One of the complaints I've heard from readers is how there isn't enough happening. Too much looking at some clock on the wall that has absolutely no impact on the story.
So go with what works for you. You can always chop it later after you have something to show the beta's.
The Deposed King
-
Thanks for that, Deposed. I think I've discovered another detrimental "thing" toward writing--when you start reading books more analytically and looking at what other authors do vs. what you do. I'm sort of wondering if it's possible to read the genre you're writing while you're writing.
-
Thanks for that, Deposed. I think I've discovered another detrimental "thing" toward writing--when you start reading books more analytically and looking at what other authors do vs. what you do. I'm sort of wondering if it's possible to read the genre you're writing while you're writing.
I think it is. But you have to be careful about it. Otherwise your probably better off not reading until you get to a point you're happy with.
That said I think its really a case by case basis. But that could just be me. I do know that its more fun in the short term to read a book in the genre your interested in than it is to strain the brain putting words to processor.
I mean even if its just as fun. I can nail a whole book in one sitting if I have the time, but in a day the most I can write is 5K. Which is like 1/24th of what I can read in the same time frame. So the fun factor can throw you off, getting 24 times the product.
Just persevere I know you can do it, synthesis.
Don't let anyone get you down, not even yourself and I really honestly mean that.
The Deposed King
-
Very helpful links. My tendency to want perfection in my first draft is the single greatest thing that I wrestle with in my writing. Thank you for the link.
-
Okay, so I've decided my mind is the problem :D Just need a shut off switch somewhere. I listen to audiobooks on my way to and from work and keep finding myself drifting into my own little world!
-
Thanks for that, Deposed. I think I've discovered another detrimental "thing" toward writing--when you start reading books more analytically and looking at what other authors do vs. what you do.
I don't know that that's necessarily detrimental; it can be extremely educational.
-
I'm definitely guilty of not letting myself writing crap. Well I write lots and lots of crap and then immediately change it over and over....and then over some more.
-
I'm definitely guilty of not letting myself writing crap. Well I write lots and lots of crap and then immediately change it over and over....and then over some more.
You have to have enough of a foundation that you know where you're going with your story, plus you need to explain it to the reader. But after 5 or 10% of your work you just have to cut loose. If I stopped and fixed everything as I went I wouldn't have finished Admiral Who?. I wrote half a book my Military Insect work, then peetered out. So write write write. Don't go back and re-re-re-do, IMO.
So go for it and pump out that volume!
The Deposed King
-
You have to have enough of a foundation that you know where you're going with your story, plus you need to explain it to the reader. But after 5 or 10% of your work you just have to cut loose. If I stopped and fixed everything as I went I wouldn't have finished Admiral Who?. I wrote half a book my Military Insect work, then peetered out. So write write write. Don't go back and re-re-re-do, IMO.
Depends on your pattern. I'm a counterexample, here; if something is wrong with a book I am two-thirds of the way through, trying to push through to the end rather than go back and fix it kills it. Everybody's approach is different; so long as you are generating a finished thing at the end, any way of getting there that works is valid. (I have seven novels finished over the past fifteen years, and a number of others still being worked on, including one 450kword manuscript where it's only the end I am tweaking so that would probably practically count as a trilogy with two volumes finished.)
-
Depends on your pattern. I'm a counterexample, here; if something is wrong with a book I am two-thirds of the way through, trying to push through to the end rather than go back and fix it kills it. Everybody's approach is different; so long as you are generating a finished thing at the end, any way of getting there that works is valid. (I have seven novels finished over the past fifteen years, and a number of others still being worked on, including one 450kword manuscript where it's only the end I am tweaking so that would probably practically count as a trilogy with two volumes finished.)
If it works don't 'fix' it. I just wouldn't stop pumping out product. Momentum has a way of pushing you over the finish line.
I can almost attest to that 15 year thing. I've spent about 7 on one book and am half way through. I'll finish it eventually. On the other hand. I wrote over 80% of Admiral Who? and finished the first draft, all in one month.
I just question how many of us will stick it out for the better part or excess of a decade and thus I'm shipping for the gut through it and never go back. Create now, edit later.
But Neurovere is very much correct. There are different models and no one side fits all. Although I do tend to believe that everyone wants to hesitate and take it slow, when they should instead jump in with both feet. I include myself in that assessment.
Just don't let anyone stop you not even yourself, and remember to always follow the dream,
The Deposed King
-
If it works don't 'fix' it. I just wouldn't stop pumping out product. Momentum has a way of pushing you over the finish line.
I can almost attest to that 15 year thing. I've spent about 7 on one book and am half way through. I'll finish it eventually. On the other hand. I wrote over 80% of Admiral Who? and finished the first draft, all in one month.
I just question how many of us will stick it out for the better part or excess of a decade and thus I'm shipping for the gut through it and never go back. Create now, edit later.
But Neurovere is very much correct. There are different models and no one side fits all. Although I do tend to believe that everyone wants to hesitate and take it slow, when they should instead jump in with both feet. I include myself in that assessment.
Just don't let anyone stop you not even yourself, and remember to always follow the dream,
The Deposed King
If there's one thing that drives me up the wall, it's that every time I re-read the stuff that I've worked on after 4 or 5 betas chew it over, I am constantly finding the odd word or phrase here or there to polish. A slight twist that clarifies things, or just makes a line sing rather than talk. Part of the learning process, I realize, but it still bugs me. ;0
-
If there's one thing that drives me up the wall, it's that every time I re-read the stuff that I've worked on after 4 or 5 betas chew it over, I am constantly finding the odd word or phrase here or there to polish. A slight twist that clarifies things, or just makes a line sing rather than talk. Part of the learning process, I realize, but it still bugs me. ;0
The create and edit hats are different beasts IMO.
Beta's are awesome for the editing hat. And when its time to edit, you've got to go at it with tong and hammer.
Just for me personally. I know that if I do very much editing, I slow down to a halt on the creation front.
Beta's are vital for putting out a product you can be proud of. You just have to make sure you're ready for them. Its a balancing act between the desire to put it out and get feedback and maintaining forward momentum. I hope others are better about this than I am. >:(
The Deposed King
-
Caught myself falling into the "Tell Instead of Show" trap just now. Current project is first person, and the character's narration is on the zesty, chattish sort of thing. Problem is, I realized that I've been neglecting everyone else's dialogue. So my narrator is telling rather than showing, so to speak. I couldn't put my finger on what my most recent section was lacking until just now.
-
Caught myself falling into the "Tell Instead of Show" trap just now. Current project is first person, and the character's narration is on the zesty, chattish sort of thing. Problem is, I realized that I've been neglecting everyone else's dialogue. So my narrator is telling rather than showing, so to speak. I couldn't put my finger on what my most recent section was lacking until just now.
Hmm, Here is a link to a discussion on this subject on another forum. The first post is by a Sam Hidaka, the first note on the page. He is a pro editor and I believe a writer so he has some experience with this. This is a very short discussion of Tell and Show.
I tried to link it to just his post but evidently I can't but you should be able to read it without having to register for that forum.
http://forum.writersofthefuture.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1165&start=30#p36231
-
I had no trouble reading them. Thanks for the link. I'm going to have to give this a serious read tomorrow when I've got more brain cells lined up. What I really realized I was doing was missing the opportunity to bring secondary characters to life by "talking about the conversation rather than actually portraying the conversation with the narrator's reactions mixed in. I couldn't figure out why the secondary character didn't feel like she mattered, and I realized it was because I wasn't letting her speak directly to the main character. Silliest damn thing to do, but it serves as a handy reminder that if we want our secondary characters to engage the reader, we have to let them speak rather than just telling about what they said.
On the upside, I'm following Jim's approach... write lean, and then I go back and add more atmospheric detail and description, more secondary dialogue, etc. And it's a big old reminder of just how much I've got to learn. ;)
-
You can do it PG. I am a firm believer in the fact that if you just do and keep doing it again and again, you will succeed.
Your head will become a hammer that eventually smashes through the wall.
The Deposed King
-
Yup. Been chugging along happily the last couple days. Just glad I spotted some things that just didn't sing before I tried sending it out to my betas, I know what parts didn't work, I figured out why, and I know how to fix 'em. And that's turning out to be fun as well I find.
As always, I gotta say "thanks for the encouraging words."