ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 15, 2012, 04:40:47 PM

Title: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 15, 2012, 04:40:47 PM
I'm running a campaign set in Vegas, and one of my player's a champion of God using a reforged Esperacchius. He wants to let his character become closer and closer to the Divine to the point where he ascends to an "angel". Obviously not becoming a real servant  since it would make the character into an NPC, I'm trying to figure out what powers the template should have. I know outright it MUST have all the powers listed under true faith but we're trying to figure out more. In all honesty i think it should be about 10-12 refresh minimum but I can't quite figure out which powers it should have any ideas?
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Anher on February 15, 2012, 04:47:01 PM
That would really depend on your interpretation of 'angel'. Are you thinking about a specific choir of angel ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy ) or are we talking just generic angel? The answer to that will have a big effect on what powers you're looking at.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 15, 2012, 04:51:19 PM
Somewhere between Archangel and Generic.  Definitely  less than Archangel. It's become a in-joke with our group to put this character through crap so we don't want him getting too powerful
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Vargo Teras on February 15, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
For a Nephil character concept I was tossing around, I left out anything True Faith related; that's for mortal worshipers, not for direct agents of the divine.  The target for that build was Soulfire, Mythic Strength and Speed, Physical Immunity (with lower values being taken as Toughness, never Recovery) with a Catch of divine power (including that of angels, fallen angels, and power loaned out to Emissaries of either) at a +3 (anyone who knows anything about angels knows that only God and each other can really hurt them, but getting your hands on Soulfire, Hellfire, or a weapon imbued by an angel or one of the Fallen is a bit trickier), and Wings.  Incite Emotion (Terror, Ranged, Potent, Area Effect) might also be reasonable.

What you're looking at is really more of a saint than an angel, in my mind; one of the core traits of an angel is that it can't exercise free will without falling from grace.  A proper saint should have, as you note, all of the True Faith powers, and likely also uses Soulfire.  Inhuman attributes don't really seem appropriate.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 15, 2012, 04:58:13 PM
For a Nephil character concept I was tossing around, I left out anything True Faith related; that's for mortal worshipers, not for direct agents of the divine.  The target for that build was Soulfire, Mythic Strength and Speed, Physical Immunity (with lower values being taken as Toughness, never Recovery) with a Catch of divine power (including that of angels, fallen angels, and power loaned out to Emissaries of either) at a +3 (anyone who knows anything about angels knows that only God and each other can really hurt them, but getting your hands on Soulfire, Hellfire, or a weapon imbued by an angel or one of the Fallen is a bit trickier), and Wings.  Incite Emotion (Terror, Ranged, Potent, Area Effect) might also be reasonable.

What you're looking at is really more of a saint than an angel, in my mind; one of the core traits of an angel is that it can't exercise free will without falling from grace.  A proper saint should have, as you note, all of the True Faith powers, and likely also uses Soulfire.  Inhuman attributes don't really seem appropriate.
What about
(click to show/hide)
  It's been about five months since I read Ghost Story
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Anher on February 15, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
What about Uriel? I can't remember whether or not his interference/action with Dresden was Ordered or not, but I don't think it was.  It's been about five months since I read Ghost Story

I don't think it was but it may not have been specifically prohibited, thus falling into a convenient grey area.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 15, 2012, 05:11:10 PM
Part of the mechanic for my campaign is I started Everyone at feet in the water, but I'm getting them waded into submerged (Which would happen anyways but still) I want a steady growth of power, from going to a minor talent with a single spell to a full fledged White Council Warden. I'm doing it cause no one knows the verse but myself and one other who barley knows it, and the fact that I do sometimes make it harder than it should be.
We where working on some  homebrew powers but i couldn't figure them all out and using the vanilla ones from the book always ends up better than homebrew.  However, I Vargo I was definitely   thinking not Full on Pure servant but Powerful and angelic enough to be. I'd say he's offered the ability, declines it knowing he needs to continue to help his city
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Orladdin on February 15, 2012, 05:13:28 PM
What about
(click to show/hide)
  It's been about five months since I read Ghost Story

In his case, I think he was following preset instructions originally given to him by
(click to show/hide)
and was not acting under direct instruction.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Adin on February 16, 2012, 01:29:44 AM
Well as far as Christian/Hebrew mythology goes I don't think it is possible for a mortal being to become an angel or angelic being and I believe that applies to the Dresdenverse as well. 

That being said, Scions almost always have a CHOICE in which they can choose to become fully mortal, or wholly of their supernatural parentage.  Therefore, if your player's character were to discover his calling to holy works related back to a fallen angel somewhere in his ancestral line, he could become more and more angelic without violating the lore.

As for powers, soulfire seems like a given, major physical powers, in fact, just let him go nuts and take any power that seems appropriate.  I doubt you could even approach full blown Angel level without at least 20 refresh. 

If you are looking for inspiration for earthbound angel powers, you may want to look at the Supernatural TV show version.  They did a decent job making the angels both obviously inhuman, yet still relatable to human experience and statable.  http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Angels
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Malraza on February 16, 2012, 01:38:58 AM
Unless you redefine what constitutes an angel, I don't think this is something you can really play in Dresden, let alone as a PC. Angles have basically been shown to be terrifyingly powerful.
(click to show/hide)
But what limits their power is they can never go against God's edict of not interfering with free will. I think we need a bit more information on what you see for this character before we can help flush it out.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 16, 2012, 02:01:46 AM
Angels don't really seem to be PC capable.  They have no free will, at all.  Like, less than even the fey it seems.  But they are also absurdly powerful.  Like plot device so.  You may as well want your character to usurp Mab and be the Winter Queen.  Or Titania.  Denarians are less powerful....

Hey, actually, I've got an idea:

What if your character, rather than become an angel, allows an angel to manifest through him?  So, kind of like a Denarian, he'd gain power as the Angel trusted him and gave him more, allowing him to be a better servant (but also slowly losing his free will, as everything has a price).

You'd have to have a really good story justifying why an angel would do this (that is, why God would let him), but it might be the best option.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 16, 2012, 05:53:45 AM
Nephilim templates have been done here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20398.0.html) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19641.msg868580.html#msg868580).

Nephilim characters have been done here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18620.msg869961/topicseen.html#msg869961) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20531.0.html) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1008898.html#msg1008898).

Angel characters have been done
here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20531.msg900389.html#msg900389) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28819.msg1274401.html#msg1274401) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1003300/topicseen.html#msg1003300) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1051984.html#msg1051984) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1035940.html#msg1035940) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1051482.html#msg1051482).

PS: Interested in hearing about those custom powers.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 16, 2012, 02:10:44 PM
Thinking about it, I think angel might be to strong a word I guess having thought about it more, especially with the posts here.
I've had lots of trouble with this player looking for loopholes in everything (From  wanting to wear full plate armor in the middle of the Nevada deserts in the middle of summer, to Wanting to make a Zweihander be used with one hand without taking a stunt)

Maybe something similar to a Denarian, but the inverse. I'm pretty sure I read in OW that a denarian whose name didn't end with -el, had fully merged with the fallen angel. Nicodemus being the prime example. Maybe someone who has almost completely  merged with a nigh-angelic entity? I think that might sound a bit better
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 16, 2012, 02:19:07 PM
Nephilim templates have been done here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20398.0.html) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19641.msg868580.html#msg868580).

Nephilim characters have been done here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18620.msg869961/topicseen.html#msg869961) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20531.0.html) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1008898.html#msg1008898).

Angel characters have been done
here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20531.msg900389.html#msg900389) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28819.msg1274401.html#msg1274401) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1003300/topicseen.html#msg1003300) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1051984.html#msg1051984) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1035940.html#msg1035940) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1051482.html#msg1051482).

PS: Interested in hearing about those custom powers.
Actually I think these Niphilim ones work pretty good. Though I would like to also follow the path i posted just above, if it seems viable. We've only been playin' this for about 2 months so we're all still new at it (it's also the only game of anything I've managed to get to last this long...)
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: sinker on February 16, 2012, 04:11:04 PM
That being said, Scions almost always have a CHOICE in which they can choose to become fully mortal, or wholly of their supernatural parentage.  Therefore, if your player's character were to discover his calling to holy works related back to a fallen angel somewhere in his ancestral line, he could become more and more angelic without violating the lore.

Unlike changelings, I don't think scions can ever choose to be wholly supernatural and they can't stay on the fence for long either. One of the quotes that we had from Fred was that usually scions make that choice early often without even knowing it, by simply using that power. Consider Kincaid. He's definitely made his choice, and yet he is still part human.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Katarn on February 16, 2012, 07:37:54 PM
As has been said they can't be played as PC by STRICT DFRPG rules.
*Pure angels lack Free Will- it's the distinction that defines humans from animals/creatures/demons/angels/fae/etc.

If you're willing to forego that, you'd probably be dealing with Submerged if you're playing the weakest.  If with a weak one you'd need Worldwalker, Wings, probably a few/most of the Inhuman abilities, and some of the Champion of God-related powers.  Tread lightly.

Ideally, a half-angel could be much more manageable.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on February 16, 2012, 07:45:56 PM
Quote
Unless you redefine what constitutes an angel, I don't think this is something you can really play in Dresden, let alone as a PC. Angles have basically been shown to be terrifyingly powerful.

I think it can be done with a little creativity.  Below is a character I made for our DFRPG game:

TEMPLATE: Exiled Seraphim
HIGH CONCEPT: Outcast Seraphim Artist
TROUBLE: CAUGHT BETWEEN HEAVEN AND HELL
BACKGROUND
ASPECT:  MY SWORD IS A PART OF ME
Invoke:   The sword is a regular long sword that does normal +2 damage.  Having it helps Sal control his darker impulses.  Also can be invoked for intimidation and maneuvers.

Compel:  It can be taken or damaged.  It can also get him in trouble with authorities in the wrong situation

 As a baby Sal was left on the steps of St. James Cathedral and was raised in an orphanage.  Despite being a very bright and artistically gifted young man he was beset by nightmares of blood and the supernatural that left him moody and disconnected.  Despite his peaceful nature he struggled with a righteous fury that threatened to overwhelm him when faced with acts of evil.  While he was in high school he severely injured three young bullies and left a fourth in a coma when they tried to beat him up.  He has never forgotten what can happen when he gives in to his anger. Father Atkins at the orphanage gave him a long sword and encouraged him to train with it.  The sword felt completely natural in his hand as if it were a missing piece of his soul.  Training with it helped Sal learn discipline so he could better control his impulses. 

RISING CONFLICT
ASPECT:  THE RIGHT MAN IN THE WRONG                      PLACE
Invoke: This aspect would work like the Spiritual Guidance effect of Guide My Hand power. Pg. 187

Compel: You are actually in the real wrong... wrong place. Or you are called to deal with something that is VERY inconvenient or comes during a bad time.

When Sal came upon a couple being attacked by a Red Court Vampire he leapt to their defense without hesitation and defeated the monster all the while screaming battle cries in ancient Aramaic.  For the first time in his life he was able to truly unleash himself and that filled him with a joy that terrified him.   Strangely he is always around when dangerous supernatural factions threaten Seattle.  Sal works as a bartender at the Rat and the Raven in the U-district.  The bar has gained a quiet reputation as a place one can go if they have problems that the mortal authorities cannot handle.

THE STORY
STORY TITLE:  DANCING ON THE HEAD OF A PIN
GUEST STARRING: Zebadiah Einar
ASPECT:  MORE THAN SKIN DEEP
Invoke:  When viewed by the Sight or other mystical senses Sal appears very much like a normal, if especially gifted, mortal. He is sometimes discounted as a threat because he seems normal.

Compel: Supernatural creatures are drawn to him. Predators think he would make a particularly tasty meal or instinctually hate him and want to destroy him.

For years Salvador Delgado, orphan, struggling art student, bartender and defender of the innocent, has known he is different.  He had no idea just how
different until he found himself battling a fallen angel. His Spirit has been bound to a mortal soul clouding his memories and he is now
mortal possessing barely a hint of his former glory. But who did he serve?  Heaven or Hell?  Facing the warring factions of Angels and Demons and hated by both sides for reasons he does not understand, Sal must cling to the one thing in his possession that both sides disdain:  his humanity. 

GUEST STAR
STORY TITLE: AN UNKIND CONSPIRACY
STARRING: Adrian Huggins
ASPECT:  RIGHTEOUS WRATH
Invoke:  Sal can tap into his Seraphim Heritage when faced with the supernatural providing him with the strength or insight he needs to triumph.

Compel:  Sal's nature makes it difficult to walk away from confrontations. And once it comes to blows his fury is difficult to restrain.

When his friend, Adrian Huggins, becomes embroiled in a Conspiracy involving the Monoc Corporation, Sal has little choice but to test his mettle against the fabled Valkyrie and the Einherjar of Valhalla.  Even with an Exiled Angel helping him how can Adrian hope to survive the machinations of the God of Lies?

GUEST STAR REDUX
STORY TITLE: RETURN OF THE JAGUAR
STARRING: Fernando Torres
ASPECT: TELL ME YOUR SORROWS, FOR I KNOW WELL OF SIN
Invoke:  In social circumstances many people trust him completely and open up to him.

Compel:  Mortals with the stain of guilt on their souls feel uncomfortable in his presence sometimes lashing out.

While tracking down a nest of Red Court Vampires Sal ends up facing a ferocious Were-Jaguar outside his bar.  After trading blows they both realize they that they have the same goals and unite to face the bloodsuckers in their lair.

SKILLS (30+4)
Superb (+5):
Great (+4): Athletics, Weapons
Good (+3): Conviction, Endurance, Fists, Presence
Fair (+2): Alertness, Lore, Might, Rapport
Average (+1): Contacts, Discipline, Empathy, Intimidation, Scholarship, Stealth

Stunts
•   PASSIONATE ARTIST. (Use Conviction for Art with +2 for Painting)

POWERS
•   Inhuman Strength -2
•   Inhuman Speed -2
•   Inhuman Recovery -2
•   Inhuman Toughness -2
•   Catch Magic/Restricted +2
•   Exiled -1

Essentially he was based on an optional character found in the Armageddon game from Eden Studios.  Exiled is explained below:

EXILED -1.
•   NOTHING TO SEE HERE. You never appear as anything other than a potent souled Mundane to any form of supernatural detection. Further, you cannot be scryed or sensed at a distance with any form of power, no matter what its source. Divinations will not reveal your presence, either in the future or the past, you are effectively invisible to powers that might locate you, even if you wished it otherwise. Anything carried on your person is protected in this manner as well, making it impossible to find you with anything other than mundane investigation and senses.

What ultimately happened to Sal is that he sacrificed his human existence (and his mortal soul which he was born with when he was exiled by Uriel) to prevent the Ascension of a malevolent spirit by becoming the focus of all the power of the Ascension Ritual.  He became an Archangel and essentially "died".  The only thing left of him as Sal were small pieces of his soul found in his Sword of Wrath, now carried as an item of power by a PC.  He was a lot of fun to play and it was realized that while he may have Fallen when Lucifer Rebelled, that stain was removed from him by his sacrifice as a mortal.  Just as Uriel hoped. 

 
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 17, 2012, 02:14:03 PM
I think it can be done with a little creativity.  Below is a character I made for our DFRPG game:

I like this template, honestly I'm gonna throw several of these together. This player has caused me so much trouble I can't believe I haven't just Blue-Lightning bolted him (He's done everything from suddenly erasing his sheet and making a new char without permission. Wanting to wear full heavy plate mail armour in Las Vegas in the middle of the summer without any negative consequences, to wanting to use a Zweihandier with no might and to use it with one hand. If i can finally shut him up it'll be nice.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Orladdin on February 17, 2012, 03:52:53 PM
I like this template, honestly I'm gonna throw several of these together. This player has caused me so much trouble I can't believe I haven't just Blue-Lightning bolted him (He's done everything from suddenly erasing his sheet and making a new char without permission. Wanting to wear full heavy plate mail armour in Las Vegas in the middle of the summer without any negative consequences, to wanting to use a Zweihandier with no might and to use it with one hand. If i can finally shut him up it'll be nice.

Through appeasement?  0_o 

I'd enforce good 'ole Rule Zero in any of the above situations, if I were you.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Mr. Death on February 17, 2012, 04:09:20 PM
Yeah, if he's willing to just utterly ignore all of that stuff, you need to drop the hammer on him, not make it easier/legal for him to get away with even more munchkining.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on February 17, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
Quote
Yeah, if he's willing to just utterly ignore all of that stuff, you need to drop the hammer on him, not make it easier/legal for him to get away with even more munchkining.

Agreed.  I wouldn't put up with that kind of behavior if I were you. 
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 19, 2012, 04:09:59 AM
Agreed.  I wouldn't put up with that kind of behavior if I were you.
Well I managed to fix it all. No sound alertness, no peripheral vision awareness, no stealth, Standing up after falling is a legendary roll. It's been fixed thankfully
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 19, 2012, 01:33:10 PM
Still, I would almost treat this like the time one of my players wanted to play a dragon.  "Um, we don't have the refresh.  Dragons are comparable to gods in this game.  We're going to be slightly less powerful than a basic wizard."  "But I want to play a dragon."  "Okay, here are the stats.  You are now an NPC.  Please come up with a new character."
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 19, 2012, 10:28:20 PM
Don't forget you are there so everyone can have fun, yourself included. You are obviously not enjoying what he adds to game. Do your other players like it or does the player bother them as well?

It sounds like you need to have an actual conversation with this guy about expectations and acceptable behavior. They definitely aren't fun to have but they are one of the few things that help.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on February 19, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
yeah, im not a DFRPG player, but my DnD group will need to have that discussion. Basically were outlawing Chaotic Evil and really having to enforce rules like "thou shalt not kill everyone and take thier money just because you can.  That is not how your alignment works" as with the angel, you could make him a KotC that gains Soulfire and ends up becoming the ultimate paladin idea.  Combine Shiro's skill with Micheal's depth of faith.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 20, 2012, 06:16:24 PM
Don't forget you are there so everyone can have fun, yourself included. You are obviously not enjoying what he adds to game. Do your other players like it or does the player bother them as well?

It sounds like you need to have an actual conversation with this guy about expectations and acceptable behavior. They definitely aren't fun to have but they are one of the few things that help.
Well We ran our first session with this new character Saturday and surprisingly He did really good. His first character he kinda just had him stand around and be a punching bag. His new character risked life and limb to run back into a building that was collapsing do to the misuse of an Earth Evocation from another play player, to save nameless npc's and staying true to his aspects. I was thoroughly impressed with his change of attitude, and play style. He even delivered a Eulogy and Last rites on the spot, of the top of his head. So thankfully we've fixed that, and we do have a new rule for his armour we're doing it realistically, "Prolonged fire spells will end up with your flesh melting to the armour, lightning spells will hit you over others, and your a much bigger target than the others at all times. No stealth, destroyed awareness, always the last to move  and you must beat an enemies athletics to actually connect. However he does get a bonus to intimidation."
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: sinker on February 20, 2012, 06:24:08 PM
we do have a new rule for his armour we're doing it realistically, "Prolonged fire spells will end up with your flesh melting to the armour, lightning spells will hit you over others, and your a much bigger target than the others at all times. No stealth, destroyed awareness, always the last to move  and you must beat an enemies athletics to actually connect. However he does get a bonus to intimidation."

Of note you should definitely give his armor an aspect then. Because those are all compels and invokes and he should be getting/spending fate points for them.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Anher on February 21, 2012, 12:45:33 PM
...and we do have a new rule for his armour we're doing it realistically, "Prolonged fire spells will end up with your flesh melting to the armour, lightning spells will hit you over others..."

 While I can understand the logical reasoning for lightning to hit him over others, in general magic doesn't have to follow the rules. Personally I'd make it easier for spells with an electrical component to hit him due to wearing a very excellent conductor, but not have them automatically drawn to him. That way the armor still has a penalty but the player can't stand by the rest of the group and 'protect' them from a lightning wielding fiend just by standing by them. Granted that's not so great for him but it is a big advantage for the rest of the group. That's just my take, ymmv and it is your table.
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 21, 2012, 02:01:52 PM
That way the armor still has a penalty but the player can't stand by the rest of the group and 'protect' them from a lightning wielding fiend just by standing by them.
That makes sense really, I'll go that route
Title: Re: Angel PC template?
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 21, 2012, 02:06:04 PM
Of note you should definitely give his armor an aspect then. Because those are all compels and invokes and he should be getting/spending fate points for them.
Yeah I just went In and added that aspect, "Plate Armour"