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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Quazar on February 13, 2012, 06:47:11 PM

Title: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Quazar on February 13, 2012, 06:47:11 PM
Hey everyone, I posted on this topic quite awhile ago and I was wondering if positions have changed any. (Particularly given Mort's performance in GS)  I have suggested running with a houserule that allows FPs to use refinements to boost their abilities, but limiting it to -1 or -2 Lore instead of at their Lore level.  It just makes sense to me that FPs should be really badass at their discipline, and not get shown up by jack-of-all-trades wizards in their area of expertise.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that we generally cap the number of Focus Items/Enchanted Items one character can have.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: devonapple on February 13, 2012, 06:51:53 PM
Some folks are considering that a more clever build for Mort would feature Sponsored Magic.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Quazar on February 13, 2012, 06:55:14 PM
Some folks are considering that a more clever build for Mort would feature Sponsored Magic.

I'm not sure if I buy that.  Mort gets his power from himself; he just occasionally uses it to draw power for his allied ghosts.  There's no suggestion in the books that he has some kind of patron.  He's exactly the kind of guy who would avoid that bond.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: devonapple on February 13, 2012, 06:58:40 PM
Sponsored Magic doesn't necessarily have to reflect a single patron.

The justification for giving Mort that option is that he is, in some sense, tied to those ghosts, earning their cooperation insofar as he remains on good terms with them and their agendas/ethos/etc. It's not as hard a leap as it may initially seem. Sponsored Magic, from that perspective, is actually an incredibly clever way to get the variety of effects we've seen him able to perform now.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 13, 2012, 07:08:38 PM
I don't like Sponsored Magic for Mort. He really is an ectomancer. And I don't see what part of his powers Sponsored Magic allows that ectomancy doesn't.

My normal recommendations for people who want specializations for Focused Practitioners are:

a) Trade in the right to take foci for the right to take pyramid-less specializations.
or
b) Take Evocation with elements that are all basically the same as the original element. Like Heat, Smoke, and Fire.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Becq on February 13, 2012, 07:41:56 PM
b) Take Evocation with elements that are all basically the same as the original element. Like Heat, Smoke, and Fire.
A variation of this might be to build the character power-wise as a normal Wizard, but then take an aspect that limits you to your theme (in this example, ectomancy).  That way any time your focus disadvantages you to a sufficiently significant degree, you could claim a fate point (which you could then funnel into making your ectomancy more effective).

This is basically an extreme application of the "Blind Spots" sidebar on YS179.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Haru on February 13, 2012, 09:41:20 PM
I like sponsored magic for any powerful focused practitioner, really. It is a great way to implement the "hot headed pyromancer" and similar element based tropes. It is the same price as channeling + ritual, so there isn't really any difference there, but it emphasizes the specific element a bit more than just the skill. It is the difference between "I know fire magic" and "I am fire magic", which is an interesting thing to play, I think. Kind of an extreme version of Becq's idea, I think. It might not fit every character concept, I admit, but there are a lot of ways around that.

There are a lot of ways to power up a focused practitioner, sponsored magic is only one of them. The most important rule for me is: only because it looks like magic, doesn't mean it needs to be magic.
What do I mean by that? A lot of the powers listed can be emulated with magic, and more importantly, they can be used to emulate the increased knowledge in a part of your magic. An aquamancer? Take the aquatic power. An aeromancer? Wings, here you go. A pyromancer? Breath weapons and you can sling those fireballs like it's nothing. Using earth magic to bolster your strength when beating some monster up? Why not take inhuman strength?

The mechanics only have to be loosely connected to what happens in the game. And you can interpret the powers any way you like, as long as you pay for it.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 13, 2012, 09:48:48 PM
You can tap Lightning Storms as a "sponsor", Ley lines, places of power, etc.

I can see Mort tapping "gathering of ghosts" or "well of necromantic energy" as a sponsor.  But as far as I can tell there's no refresh cost for things like that.  Harry certainly didn't spend refresh to tap lightning, ley lines, and other places of power when he taps them.

Richard
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Haru on February 13, 2012, 10:01:14 PM
He's probably going to spent at least a fate point for it. And tapping into a stationary/temporary power source like a ley line or a lightning storm can easily be viewed as a "Place of Power" type sponsored magic (YS292). If you already have evocation + thaumaturgy, the upgrade would cost you only one refresh anyway, and if you take it as a temporary power, it cost you 1 fate point to use it for a scene.

Now that I think about it, this is a neat little trick that any wizard in his right mind should use as often as possible.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 13, 2012, 11:15:59 PM
I'd stat Mort with Modular Abilities (or something very similar) instead of extra spell casting powers.  GS spoiler:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Quazar on February 14, 2012, 12:49:35 AM
I'd stat Mort with Modular Abilities (or something very similar) instead of extra spell casting powers.  GS spoiler:
(click to show/hide)

Yes, but that doesn't explain such things as Mort
(click to show/hide)
  That seems like a clearly high shift ectomancy spell.

As for Sponsored Magic, the books states "These power sources, called sponsors, are at least semi-aware, if not fully-aware, entities.  Ancient and strange and potent, they have agendas of their own, and they view those to whom they grant a modicum of their own power as their agents throughout Creation."  Mort seems to act out of compassion for the shades that wander Chicago, and not as their servant.  Now, if you want to have a character with a nebulous sponsor in your game then that's your business.  But as for the canon character?  I'd say he's just a really specialized ectomancer.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Tedronai on February 14, 2012, 02:51:06 AM
Moreover, aside from whether Sponsored Magic is appropriate for any given Focused Practitioner, its use doesn't address the fundamental issue at hand, here, being that of the power ceiling that results from being unable to access the full range of Refinement.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Aminar on February 14, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
I have personally stated that focused practicioners in my game can take all the refinement in their focus they want provided they have taken The Sight, but they can never upgrade to full wizard, or take Evocation/Thaumaturgy/Sponsored magic thereafter.  I understand the goal was to make full wizard a goal, but I'd rather have a superlimited pyromancer that functions as a glass cannon than a full wizard if that is what the player wants.  I see no reason not to allow Ice-man as a character.  He's still not better than a full wizard. 

By not letting them take Evocation etc. it loses them the fact Evocation is better than Channeling/Refinement.  They may be better at blasting than the Wizard(by alot.)  But a Wizard can still own them with prep and planning.  And they still go down like chumps. 
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Becq on February 17, 2012, 09:01:32 PM
I'd stat Mort with Modular Abilities (or something very similar) instead of extra spell casting powers.  GS spoiler:
(click to show/hide)
It seems to me that this could still be explained as clever use of ectomantic powers.  For example:
(click to show/hide)
However, I seem to recall that these spells were very quickly cast, which could argue for a sponsored magic-style Thaum-as-Evo.  Or it could simply be a matter of casting a spell with a complexity under his Lore very quickly.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 17, 2012, 09:50:11 PM
I don't like Sponsored Magic for Mort. He really is an ectomancer. And I don't see what part of his powers Sponsored Magic allows that ectomancy doesn't.

My normal recommendations for people who want specializations for Focused Practitioners are:

a) Trade in the right to take foci for the right to take pyramid-less specializations.
or
b) Take Evocation with elements that are all basically the same as the original element. Like Heat, Smoke, and Fire.

A:  Bad idea.  Foci are less powerful than pyramid-less specializations because they are pyramid-less bonuses anyway, tied to having items and split between offensive/defensive for evocation.  It would be suboptimal to NOT make this trade, and could potentially make a FP evoker MORE powerful than a full wizard of similar refresh could be.

B:  This is the idea that I favor.  Well, either this or Sponsored magic.  Thematically they care still a focused practitioner, the WC would dismiss them as such because their lack of versatility, but they'd be able to shine more. 

Personally, I think Mort has Sponsored Magic with "Ghosts of Chicago" as his patron. 
(click to show/hide)
  I think other focused practitioners would benefit best from the Evocation with narrow elements route.

Actually, though, for sheer power, you can make a FP Evoker some refresh levels with better bonuses through Focus Items (because they ignore the pyramid).  Because they're spending on a single element, they can optimize how those are are placed. 
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 17, 2012, 11:48:08 PM
If people feel so strongly about Mort's stats, then why did I get so little commentary when I wrote him up on the Resources Board?

Anyway, I have a serious question for y'all. Why give Mort Sponsored Magic? How does it fit his character?

@InferrumVeritas: Channelling with pyramid-less specializations and no foci is not necessarily stronger than the default option. Giving up those two free focus slots hurts. Analysis here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19934.msg1049044.html#msg1049044).
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 18, 2012, 12:05:43 AM
Channelling with pyramid-less specializations and no foci is not necessarily stronger than the default option. Giving up those two free focus slots hurts. Analysis here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19934.msg1049044.html#msg1049044).
Your statement doesn't seem to match the numbers on your linked post.  You don't think a +3 to +5 shift advantage on defensive casting is significant?  I do. 

I agree with you on the sponsored casting question.  There are several ways to accomplish a Mort build.  That's the norm for DF though.  ;)
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 18, 2012, 12:21:01 AM
It can give a significant advantage, but it doesn't necessarily.

Sure, it lets you boost both offence and defence at the same time. And it removes the whole disarming worry.

But if all you want is as much firepower as you can get, it's actually worse. And if you don't have Refinements, it's strictly worse.

So there's still a reason to pick normal Channelling.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Quazar on February 18, 2012, 07:05:33 AM
The point is that FPS should be MORE powerful than wizards in their chosen element.  Wizards don't get as strong in that element as fast because they branch out into others.

People seem to be approaching the templates like their are ranked or something.  Like any given FP needs to be equal to or worse than any given wizard in a particular element.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 18, 2012, 02:00:19 PM
The point is that FPS should be MORE powerful than wizards in their chosen element. 
Why?

I certainly think it's possible for a focused practitioner to be very powerful, even more power than a generalist - at least within their specialty.  But "should" be more powerful?  Don't see why.  It's certainly not true of spell casters in DF.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Tedronai on February 18, 2012, 03:32:30 PM
It's certainly not true of spell casters in DF.

It certainly IS true of a comparison of the top single representatives of each group (based on 'page time'), Harry and Mort.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 18, 2012, 04:43:11 PM
It certainly IS true of a comparison of the top single representatives of each group (based on 'page time'), Harry and Mort.
So you're going to extrapolate from a single instance to "focused practitioners should be more powerful than generalists"?  Doing so requires fallacious logic. 

I'm not going to count pages for a rebuttal but Cowl makes Mort look like the scared one trick practitioner he is...even in his own specialty.  ;)

Beyond that, the books repeatedly call the WC wizards strong compared to others.  Against that it makes one statement (that I can recall) about Mort being better than Harry at Mort's specialty.  Don't think it compared him to a wizard who might have studied Ectomancy and related fields at all.

So no, I don't think it is necessarily true.  As noted before, I think it's possible for a focused practitioner to be more powerful in her specialty than a given generalist wizard.  I simply think that's a rare event, not a general rule of "should be more powerful in their focus".
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 18, 2012, 04:53:23 PM
It can give a significant advantage, but it doesn't necessarily.

Sure, it lets you boost both offence and defence at the same time. And it removes the whole disarming worry.

But if all you want is as much firepower as you can get, it's actually worse. And if you don't have Refinements, it's strictly worse.

So there's still a reason to pick normal Channelling.


Equal Refresh Comparison:

Charlie
Channeling (No focus item slots, can take refinement for pyramid-less specializations), Refinement x5
Superb Lore, Great Discipline/Conviction
+5 Control Specialization, +5 Power Specialization

+9 Control
+9 Power

Chip
Channeling, Refinement x5
Superb Lore, Great Discipline/Conviction
Focus Item 1: +5 Offensive Control
Focus Item 2: +5 Offensive Power
Focus Item 3: +1 Defensive Control
Focus Item 4: +1 Defensive Power

+9 Offensive Control/Offensive Power
+5 Defensive Control/Defensive Power

How is it worse at all, at equal refresh, when you have the ability to take refinements?  It's bad game design, because it's you sacrifice power now for power later, which causes imbalance at all levels of the game (at low level, you are unable to contribute as much, at high levels you're better than everyone else).  Oh, and not only is a regular Channeler less powerful all around, but that power can be taken away with one or two actions (that would require fate points or perfect rolls for Chip in order to resist of Charlie tried them).

Granted, Evokers are balanced against this (as the +1 refresh gains them more elements, specialization, and foci, which slightly more than taking refinement twice could do).  But their extra offensive power is subject to disarming (a disarm of their foci actually makes them worse than Charlie, and Charlie's better at offense than they are at defending against the disarm maneuver).

Elvira
Evocation, Refinement x4
Superb Lore, Great Discipline/Conviction
+3 Primary Control Specialization, +2 Primary Power Specialization, +1 Secondary Power Specialization
Focus Item 1: +4 Offensive Control Primary
Focus Item 2: +3 Offensive Control Secondary

+11 Offensive Control
+9 Offensive Power
+7 Defensive Control
+6 Defensive Power

So the channeler with spec's is arguably the most powerful of the three (although the Evoker is probably still the best in actual play rather than a head to head).  At this refresh, you'd look stupid playing a regular channeler.  Channeling is only viable when saving Refresh then. 

So you're going to extrapolate from a single instance to "focused practitioners should be more powerful than generalists"?  Doing so requires fallacious logic. 

I'm not going to count pages for a rebuttal but Cowl makes Mort look like the scared one trick practitioner he is...even in his own specialty.  ;)

Beyond that, the books repeatedly call the WC wizards strong compared to others.  Against that it makes one statement (that I can recall) about Mort being better than Harry at Mort's specialty.  Don't think it compared him to a wizard who might have studied Ectomancy and related fields at all.

So no, I don't think it is necessarily true.  As noted before, I think it's possible for a focused practitioner to be more powerful in her specialty than a given generalist wizard.  I simply think that's a rare event, not a general rule of "should be more powerful in their focus".

This.  I think an equally powerful (in game terms, equal refresh to Mort post GS) wizard who has studied Ectomancy would be just as capable, if not more powerful,  as Mort. 

Just like I don't think a gifted fire or force focused channeler would be more powerful than Harry or Luccio (depending on whether we're talking power or control) at using fire in combat.  Possibly able to be more versatile with their fire due to the inability to use other elements, but not more powerful or better at controlling it.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Tedronai on February 18, 2012, 05:24:05 PM
So you're going to extrapolate from a single instance to "focused practitioners should be more powerful than generalists"?  Doing so requires fallacious logic. 

I'm not going to count pages for a rebuttal but Cowl makes Mort look like the scared one trick practitioner he is...even in his own specialty.  ;)

Beyond that, the books repeatedly call the WC wizards strong compared to others.  Against that it makes one statement (that I can recall) about Mort being better than Harry at Mort's specialty.  Don't think it compared him to a wizard who might have studied Ectomancy and related fields at all.

So no, I don't think it is necessarily true.  As noted before, I think it's possible for a focused practitioner to be more powerful in her specialty than a given generalist wizard.  I simply think that's a rare event, not a general rule of "should be more powerful in their focus".

No, I don't think we have enough information to form a solid argument as to which 'should' be more powerful.
My rebuttal was intended only for the categorical dismissal of the claim, not as the foundation for a logical argument in favour.

What we DO have sufficient evidence of is that the biased-in-Wizards'-favour-narrator, who for the majority of the novels believed all FPs, and Mort in particular, were pathetically weak in comparison to folks on his level, even in their specialties, and even as compared to generalists like himself, was thoroughly shocked and impressed by the scope and power of feats accomplished by Mort, and convinced that he could likely not accomplish the same.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 18, 2012, 05:56:55 PM
No, I don't think we have enough information to form a solid argument as to which 'should' be more powerful.
My rebuttal was intended only for the categorical dismissal of the claim, not as the foundation for a logical argument in favour.
Err, ok.  You did cherry pick a quote from a paragraph which also stated "I certainly think it's possible for a focused practitioner to be very powerful, even more power than a generalist - at least within their specialty." and then made a flat statement denying my rejection of "should be more powerful".  Yet it sounds now as if our opinions aren't all that far apart.   ???

I still reject the claim that "focused practitioners should be more powerful than generalists in their specialty".  There's no evidence for such a statement.  Replace "should" with "may" and I'd allow the possibility...as I've already stated.

Quote
What we DO have sufficient evidence of is that the biased-in-Wizards'-favour-narrator, who for the majority of the novels believed all FPs, and Mort in particular, were pathetically weak in comparison to folks on his level, even in their specialties, and even as compared to generalists like himself, was thoroughly shocked and impressed by the scope and power of feats accomplished by Mort, and convinced that he could likely not accomplish the same.
Perhaps.  (I don't remember shock or a conviction of being unable to reproduce - but I'll buy it for sake of discussion.)  That same wizard narrator was very wary of a certain heart exploding spell and conscious of how outclassed he was by senior wizards.  He also notes he has more power than finesse.  So I don't find it surprising he can raise a dinosaur but might not be able to use ghosts effectively.  That doesn't preclude other wizards from being better at such things than Harry.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 18, 2012, 06:04:47 PM
The more I read threads on here, the more I hate Harry's GM for letting him get away with so much.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 18, 2012, 06:12:17 PM
The more I read threads on here, the more I hate Harry's GM for letting him get away with so much.
Hehe, can't argue!
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Tedronai on February 18, 2012, 06:15:32 PM
Err, ok.  You did cherry pick a quote from a paragraph which also stated "I certainly think it's possible for a focused practitioner to be very powerful, even more power than a generalist - at least within their specialty." and then made a flat statement denying my rejection of "should be more powerful".  Yet it sounds now as if our opinions aren't all that far apart.   ???

That might have been my mistake.  I understood your statement as a claim in itself that FPs were not as powerful as wizards in the novels.

I still reject the claim that "focused practitioners should be more powerful than generalists in their specialty".  There's no evidence for such a statement.  Replace "should" with "may" and I'd allow the possibility...as I've already stated.

Replace 'generalists' with 'wizards, even specialists' and add in a qualifier addressing the rarity of such an event, and I'd agree with you.

Perhaps.  (I don't remember shock or a conviction of being unable to reproduce - but I'll buy it for sake of discussion.)  That same wizard narrator was very wary of a certain heart exploding spell and conscious of how outclassed he was by senior wizards.  He also notes he has more power than finesse.  So I don't find it surprising he can raise a dinosaur but might not be able to use ghosts effectively.  That doesn't preclude other wizards from being better at such things than Harry.

The limits on FP power in the rpg are based on Harry's observations, assumptions, and biases from the early novels.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 19, 2012, 01:56:04 AM
Channelling is already only good when saving Refresh or when focusing purely on offence/defence. Evocation utterly trumps it in all other cases.

Which is why it doesn't bother me to make a version of it that trumps it except when saving Refresh or when focusing purely on offence/defence.

It would bother me to make a specialized power stronger than Evocation, though. Evocation is very strong, and making something stronger seems unwise.

PS: Focused Practitioners are actually generally better than Wizards at their speciality. Unless, of course, the Wizard chooses to specialize in the same thing as the Focused Practitioner.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 19, 2012, 03:12:16 AM
Channelling is already only good when saving Refresh or when focusing purely on offence/defence. Evocation utterly trumps it in all other cases.

Which is why it doesn't bother me to make a version of it that trumps it except when saving Refresh or when focusing purely on offence/defence.

It would bother me to make a specialized power stronger than Evocation, though. Evocation is very strong, and making something stronger seems unwise.

PS: Focused Practitioners are actually generally better than Wizards at their speciality. Unless, of course, the Wizard chooses to specialize in the same thing as the Focused Practitioner.

Right, but your custom channeling beats Channeling in basically every way when you have access to refinement.  You can focus on offense and still be better at defense than a regular channeler focusing on offense, and can't have that bonus disarmed, for the exact same cost. Hell, I showed that in some ways you can be better than a full evoker at equal refresh. 
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 19, 2012, 05:25:40 AM
You'll be better at defence. But you'll be worse at offence, which is what you care about.

I used to worry about the balance of being un-disarmable, but then I remembered that underpants are valid foci.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 19, 2012, 01:23:01 PM
Everybody keeps referring to mort as a focused practitioner, but the conversation he has with Harry in GS cast doubt on his classification IMO.

I don't have my copy of the book but iirc Harry accuses Mort of hiding his strength. Mort then exclaims that he didn't want to be drafted into the war against the ramps. This certainly read to me like he had thrown the wc tests like Elaine had.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 19, 2012, 01:28:00 PM
You'll be better at defence. But you'll be worse at offence, which is what you care about.

I used to worry about the balance of being un-disarmable, but then I remembered that underpants are valid foci.

You keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it.  The numbers I posted don't demonstrate it, the numbers you posted don't demonstrate it (as you're equal at offense, and significantly better at defense).  Saying that it's true doesn't make it so, so could you please explain how the modified channeling is worse at offense than regular channeling?  Because I just don't see it as the case when you spend equal refresh and have as much refinement as you can get.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 19, 2012, 01:38:38 PM
I don't have my copy of the book but iirc Harry accuses Mort of hiding his strength. Mort then exclaims that he didn't want to be drafted into the war against the ramps. This certainly read to me like he had thrown the wc tests like Elaine had.
Quite possible.  Someday it might be interesting to see how many different versions of Mort could be drawn up.  ;)

You'll be better at defence. But you'll be worse at offence, which is what you care about.
In my games, more than half of a caster's rolls tend to qualify as defensive.  Basically, any unopposed roll - almost all blocks and self, scene, and ally maneuvers.  How are you treating it?

Quote
I used to worry about the balance of being un-disarmable, but then I remembered that underpants are valid foci.
Declaration:  Skid Marks; Compel:  Not enough contact to work.   :o  Slightly tongue in cheek but I hope your suggestion was also.  Somewhat less tongue in cheek, getting soaked in water could also be compelled to temporarily disable clothing foci.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Vargo Teras on February 19, 2012, 02:46:27 PM
Everybody keeps referring to mort as a focused practitioner, but the conversation he has with Harry in GS cast doubt on his classification IMO.

I don't have my copy of the book but iirc Harry accuses Mort of hiding his strength. Mort then exclaims that he didn't want to be drafted into the war against the ramps. This certainly read to me like he had thrown the wc tests like Elaine had.
Spoilers for GS:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 19, 2012, 08:39:52 PM
@UmbraLux:

Belial's character in my PbP game rarely casts a non-offensive evocation, because he optimized for offensive power. His character can end most fights in one shot. Which is hard to GM for, but I've managed decently so far.

My RL game does not have a spellcaster, though it's sort of supposed to.

So my limited experience suggests that it's quite possible to use only offence if you really try. I don't know if the same is true for defence.

My point about underwear foci is that unless the GM is out to disable you then you don't really need to worry too much about losing access to foci. And if your GM is out to disable you, he can do that anyway.

(Anyway, why would wetness disable underpants foci?)

@InferrumVeritas:

I'm not sure what you mean by "have as much refinement as you can get". So I'm going to ignore that part for now.

Normal Channelling +X Refinements gets you +(X+1) offensive/defensive power and control.

Altered Channelling +X Refinements gets you +X power and control.

It's that simple really. You basically spend a Refinement in order to have your Refinements apply to both offence and defence.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: UmbraLux on February 19, 2012, 09:52:08 PM
@UmbraLux:

Belial's character in my PbP game rarely casts a non-offensive evocation, because he optimized for offensive power. His character can end most fights in one shot. Which is hard to GM for, but I've managed decently so far.
Perhaps because he min/maxed his casting?  Or because you haven't put him on the defensive?  Shrug, I'm just throwing out guesses.  It does surprise me you'd want to make the magic he's not using just as (or nearly as) powerful as his attacks - particularly since you say it's difficult to GM.

Quote
My RL game does not have a spellcaster, though it's sort of supposed to.

So my limited experience suggests that it's quite possible to use only offence if you really try. I don't know if the same is true for defence.
It's certainly possible.  It's possible to treat everything like a nail if you only have a hammer.  ;)  Jokes aside, some situations make attacking a suboptimal choice at best.  Whether or not those get used depends on the group.  The thaumaturgist throwing weapon 6 "potions" around is the "optimized" character in the game we're playing. 

Quote
My point about underwear foci is that unless the GM is out to disable you then you don't really need to worry too much about losing access to foci. And if your GM is out to disable you, he can do that anyway.

(Anyway, why would wetness disable underpants foci?)
The "GM is out to disable you" characterization is simplistic at best.  Have you tried carrying a staff around the city?  Into the White House?  (Our game is set in DC.)  Or even city hall?  What about the police station?  A neutral's house?  There are lots of potential reasons for not having access to foci.

Edit:  And water disrupts magic so might be compelled to temporarily disable foci which soak it up.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Tedronai on February 19, 2012, 10:47:21 PM
Edit:  And water disrupts magic so might be compelled to temporarily disable foci which soak it up.

RUNNING water disables magic.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 20, 2012, 12:02:35 AM
RUNNING water disables magic.

"I make an intimidate maneuver to place the aspect 'Wizzed Myself' on 'im."
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Silverblaze on February 20, 2012, 03:05:34 AM
Running water....

Taking the I whizzed myself to the next level:  Could a dog urinating on a wizards leg mitigate spell casting?

 I hope not or someone in my group is going to try that....without the dog... if you get my meaning.
Title: Re: Refinements for Focused Practitioners
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 20, 2012, 06:48:29 AM
@UmbraLux:

He one-shots encounters because he evokes 13ish shifts at base and is not shy about going nova. But I've managed to create some decent challenges with a mixture of noncombat stuff and Speed powers and one absurdly tough enemy.

The point I've been trying to make is that my proposed Channelling edit is only better than Channelling in the situations where Evocation is already better. So I'm not creating any new false choices.

Perhaps I "trying to disable" was too harsh. Basically I just meant that you didn't have to worry unless you received a compel, and that since compels aren't bad that isn't really a problem.