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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Logiwonk on February 09, 2012, 10:29:49 PM
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So I'm gearing up to start my first DFRPG game with my group (we've played all 4E D&D up to this point with a brief flirtation with Mutants and Masterminds). One of my plays is obsessed with the idea of enchanted guns. I've told him three times now that it's a non-starter, that any enchantment you put on a gun would make it essentially unusable. It would jam constantly at best and explode at worst. I'm at the point where if he asks me one more time I'm going to give it to him...and he can deal with the consequences, which will include the gun malfunctioning. I was also thinking about just making the gun weak - so if you have a Lore of 4 for example, you'd have to spend 2-3 shifts of that on containment wards to prevent the enchantment from interacting with the gun leaving you a total of 1 shift for whatever you want to enchant the gun to do. Not to mention the risk of violating the first law by killing a person with a magic gun. Thoughts?
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The gun could be enchanted by dwarfs or the spirit of the wild west or Hephasteos (how do you spell that?)
Carefully enchanting an old revolver could work.
It could be holy in nature.
Killing a person with a magic gun... I don't know. Did you enchant it?
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I'm at the point where if he asks me one more time I'm going to give it to him...and he can deal with the consequences, which will include the gun malfunctioning. I was also thinking about just making the gun weak - so if you have a Lore of 4 for example, you'd have to spend 2-3 shifts of that on containment wards to prevent the enchantment from interacting with the gun leaving you a total of 1 shift for whatever you want to enchant the gun to do.
Just to be certain, we're discussing a thaumaturgically enchanted item and not an Item of Power correct? What does he want to enchant the gun with? For that matter, how modern a gun are we talking about?
I'd suggest enchanting bullets rather that the gun for anything damage related. Among other things, it explains why your overcharged attack runs out after a set number of uses each scene.
If he's going for something else, I'd tell him the gun gains the "Enchanted Gun" aspect (or something thematically appropriate). Then I'd compel that aspect to break the gun on occasion.
Whether or not it breaks a Law will depend on a variety of factors and is up to the group. Even if it doesn't, it may still get warden attention...and potential action.
Edit: The aspect could also be done either by GM declaration or even by having him put a related aspect on his character - "Gun Mage" or something similar.
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Only a gun enchanted by purely mortal magic would have that issue, why not pick a famous gunsmith and say that they were actually a Half Dwarf or something to justify an item of power. For that matter, revolvers have been repeatedly shown to be just about immune to even the sloppiest of wizardly murphyonic fields so it shouldn't be an issue in any case.
My point being, even within the lore it is possible to have a dresden files magic gun wielder.
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For that matter, one of the short stories - specifically, - includes an enchanted bullet, probably modeled in DFRPG terms using the potion rules. Of course, it is fired using a very old style (flintlock!) gun.
So, enchanted gun? Totally doable. Just, y'know, maybe a bit clunky.
...Though, personally - how awesome would it be to substitute an enchanted flintlock pistol in place of Harry's blasting rod? Pretty darned awesome, imo.
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Harry exposes his revolver to magic frequently (though not directly) with little trouble. In the novels, I believe the basic rule is that technology rooted in the last 50 years or so is prode to accidental hexing, with older technology being fairly reliable.
As to direct exposure to magic in the form of a long-term enchantment, perhaps as a guideline you could take a look at the hexing table, YS258. While modern firearms are fairly easy to hex (4 power), older ones are much harder (7-8). So if you want to restrict how much magic an item can withstand, you could say that a 19th century pistol would be safe with up to a 6 shift enchantment, quirky at 7 shifts ("Simple guns may stop working at inopportune moments"), and broken at 8 shifts. This might be overkill, given that those numbers are how much power is required to cast a deliberate hex spell, but it would be fair to say that those numbers at least would be safe.
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If it's an Item of Power, then there's no problem.
If it's an Enchanted Item, then I suppose he'll get compelled a lot to have it fail. But that's okay, Fate Points are yummy.
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I'd go for enchanting the ammunition personally, thats the part that really matters. I'd build the PC as a "Rune-smith" or Alchemist using the Focussed Practitioner template (with a few extra 'gun-nut' related stunts) with Ritual: Crafting and a bunch load of Refinement stunts with the slots left open for extra enchanted items. The rules for potions can really easily be used for enchanted ammunition, whether its enchanted arrows, potion grenades or rune-laden bullets, it also quite nicely limits the number of special shots the player gets per scene, and can avoid complicating things by enchanting a relatively modern item.
As a plus it means that not only is the players ammunition supply limited, he has to invest crafting time to rebuild his stock, and if he continuously relys upon the "rolling Lore/Fate point to declare that he coincidentally has an appropriate bullet" shtick, well I'd compel the heck out of that, "Well, you've been sooo busy chasing these Black Court Vampires all over town you just haven't had time to get around to restocking your ammo...", on the other hand, if the player finds just having enchanted ammo a bit limiting, this allows him to build some enchanted items to supplement/replace some of his ammo (enchanted night vision goggles, enchanted spotter's scope, magical stealth suit...)
I kinda want to stat out this PC now...
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I'd go for enchanting the ammunition personally, thats the part that really matters. I'd build the PC as a "Rune-smith" or Alchemist using the Focussed Practitioner template (with a few extra 'gun-nut' related stunts) with Ritual: Crafting and a bunch load of Refinement stunts with the slots left open for extra enchanted items. The rules for potions can really easily be used for enchanted ammunition, whether its enchanted arrows, potion grenades or rune-laden bullets, it also quite nicely limits the number of special shots the player gets per scene, and can avoid complicating things by enchanting a relatively modern item.
As a plus it means that not only is the players ammunition supply limited, he has to invest crafting time to rebuild his stock, and if he continuously relys upon the "rolling Lore/Fate point to declare that he coincidentally has an appropriate bullet" shtick, well I'd compel the heck out of that, "Well, you've been sooo busy chasing these Black Court Vampires all over town you just haven't had time to get around to restocking your ammo...", on the other hand, if the player finds just having enchanted ammo a bit limiting, this allows him to build some enchanted items to supplement/replace some of his ammo (enchanted night vision goggles, enchanted spotter's scope, magical stealth suit...)
I kinda want to stat out this PC now...
Yeah, I had an enchanter like this in a game I ran. Had lots of different bullets enchanted as potions for a big ass revolver, and a bunch of maglites, each with two or three elemental attacks. He had a special gun harness made for them that could go under a leather duster. He'd have gone for four at a time if I didn't tell him it would affect his endurance and athletics checks...
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I wonder, has anyone come across the Bow version of this concept? Enchanted Bow/Potion Arrows sounds like an interesting idea...
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Just to be clear one can compel him to make the gun not work. One can never compel him to make the magic not work (or at least not using the hexing compel). If he shoots the gun with the magic ammo then you shouldn't be compelling to make that go awry.
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Good points all, thanks very much for the input. I'm talking with the player now and we'll probably either go the Bullets As Potions route or with the gun as an Item of Power, something like Wyatt Earp's Gun (character as an upholder of law, especially against the supernatural) or the 1st Winchester Rifle (character is a super NRA jingoist who still supports manifest destiny), etc. I like it as an item of power since we don't have to worry about 1st Law issues that way and it will add some depth to the character.
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Just as a note if you go the item of power route: Don't make it grant the "breath weapon" power - it doesn't need that; it gets its usability as a ranged weapon just off of the item of power "It Is What It Is" entry.
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Good points all, thanks very much for the input. I'm talking with the player now and we'll probably either go the Bullets As Potions route or with the gun as an Item of Power, something like Wyatt Earp's Gun (character as an upholder of law, especially against the supernatural) or the 1st Winchester Rifle (character is a super NRA jingoist who still supports manifest destiny), etc. I like it as an item of power since we don't have to worry about 1st Law issues that way and it will add some depth to the character.
Remember, wardens carry warden swords because beheading someone with a magical weapon explicitly bypasses the first law. You're killing them with the sword even if the magic on the sword helps, it's not what does the killing.
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Just as a note if you go the item of power route: Don't make it grant the "breath weapon" power - it doesn't need that; it gets its usability as a ranged weapon just off of the item of power "It Is What It Is" entry.
Unless you want to give it some sort of elemental attack; which the gun-as-a-gun wouldn't have... though you can probably discount range by saying it's tied to the bullets... I'd need to go back and re-read breath weapon. I can't remember exactly what options it has.
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Maybe. For a reference point, I have, in my game, given out a winter-aspected bow that has a couple of powers to it - it shapeshifts to any similar weapon that the wielder might be more familiar with (in this case, a sniper rifle), and it can fire winter ice bullets (arrows, whatever) without needing ammunition. Since the game mechanics for guns don't call for explicit ammunition counts, this has so far proved to be entirely balanced as a zero point item - it's been occasionally more useful than a mundane sniper rifle (bullets that melt and confuse ballistics experts), and occasionally less useful (as a winter artifact, it can be tracked by winterfae, annoys summerfae, etc.) - but it's certainly not worth having spent refresh on a breath weapon power.
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Either for inspiration or blatant ripoff potential, the Supernatural Colt (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=The_Colt) would definitely be an Item of Power.
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Enchanted Flintlock, or Single Action Peacemaker. You could make part of the enchantment it doesnt misfire or doesnt need bullets.
Its not real life its a game, calm down
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In the game I'm running, we've got a pretty powerful artificer type character. I let him make a magazine for another character's Desert Eagle that never runs out of ammo.
I basically just treat this as an aspect that prevents me from compelling to say "You're clip's empty." This was after prolonged exposure to the Nevernever without a supply of bullets.
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How do you guys handle enchanted bullets under the "bullets as potions" approach? Specifically with regards to the strength of the attack. For example, a shot from a heavy-duty revolver would be a strength 3 attack. If my character has a Lore of +3 does that mean that an exploding fireball-type bullet should do 3+3 = 6 damage?
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No. It functions like a potion - so in your example, the fireball bullet would be weapon rating 3 - or, for an exploding bullet that hits an entire zone, weapon rating 1. You would attack using your firearms skill, though.
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So if my player's lore is only +3 then an enchanted bullet is just as good as a regular one?
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So if my player's lore is only +3 then an enchanted bullet is just as good as a regular one?
Yes, but enchanted bullets can be built to satisfy a Catch with little justification.
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In terms of raw damage, usually. However, keep in mind, potion strength can be boosted by aspect invokes, accepting compels, crafting specializations or foci, or spending multiple potion slots on one bullet. In addition, it makes it much easier to vary your attack type - for example, if you're shooting at something whose catch is fire, a normal bullet won't get to bypass the target's toughness. (Though, of course, having the right bullet on hand will typically require a lore declaration at a difficulty set by the GM.)
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Ah, great thanks for the reminder about boosting strength with multiple slots, he's likely to start the game with 8 "bullet/potion" slots and this should help keep him from walking around with an arsenal of instant death. Also, invoking and compelling aspects is a good point. For example, this character survived a necromancer-lead zombie attack on his small midwestern village, so he could load up an anti-Zombie round and spend a fate point to invoke his 'Zombie attack sole survivor" aspect for a 5 strength anti-zombie bullet.
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Well, generally, he'd be better off spending an aspect invoke on the attack roll. The compel option (see the paragraph split across YS280-281) is likely to be more useful to him. And, with 8 slots, he'd get good use out of a crafting focus item or two - for example, he could have 8 slots at power 3, or 6 slots at power 4, or 4 slots with two uses each at power 4, or, etc. (Rules for these are on YS280)
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Gotcha, so he could make a custom bullet-mold inscribed with runes of power as a Crafting +1 power focus and using the remaining 6 spots at +4, sounds like a good idea.
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I have to admit: I am heartily enjoying this thread. What originally sounded like a silly idea to me has become something I feel like statting up and playing! :-D
Well done, folks.
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I'm psyched that there are some great mechanics for this that don't unbalance the game. So now to add in EFFECTS to the bullet/potions besides damage. What about a bullet that would use cold to "slow-mo" the target, I was thinking:
Lore +3 and +1 for Focus = +4 total strength
+2 Weapon Strength + Target gains FRAGILE aspect "Magically Slowed"
OR
No attack, + Target gains sticky aspect "Magically slowed"
Basically, what's the power trade off for adding aspects to the target?
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We really only have one model for attacking while adding an aspect, and that is the special effects attack on YS326. Basically the whole concept is that you devote the shifts of the spell (or the weapon value, etc) to creating an aspect. These shifts are what must overcome the difficulty set by the GM (if an unresisted maneuver) or the defense of the target. Then the targeting roll is resolved as an attack, dealing stress equal to the number of shifts by which they exceeded the defense.
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Basically, what's the power trade off for adding aspects to the target?
Putting an aspect on someone is resisted / resistible. They're also removable if the victim takes appropriate action. Mechanically, you'll have to add enough power to the aspect to account for both resistance and time.
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Minimum power for an aspect from magic = 3 shifts. Possibly plus additional shifts for duration - though, as per here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.msg1292407.html#msg1292407), houseruling the default duration to something more than just one exchange is a very plausible houserule.
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Minimum power for an aspect from magic = 3 shifts. Possibly plus additional shifts for duration - though, as per here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.msg1292407.html#msg1292407), houseruling the default duration to something more than just one exchange is a very plausible houserule.
Yeah, while it's not RAW, I like the idea of using the time increments chart* along with a "what makes sense" approach to temporary aspect duration. In play, most tend to fall in one of four time categories: fragile / one exchange; until resisted / removed (less than a scene); scene; and consequences. That said, the changeling PC in my game did pick up a curse which will last years. ;D
*Roughly what consequences are...temporary aspects around for longer periods of time based on severity / shifts.
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Gotcha, so the way to handle a "freeze bullet" would be to treat it as a strength 3 maneuver that lasted for two exchanges or a strength 4 maneuver that lasted for one?
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The duration of magic maneuvers is weird. Fred has said that he might give some of those maneuvers a duration of the scene or until removed (much like they suggest similarly bending the rules for veils). But yeah, by RAW you have it right.