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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JediDresden on February 07, 2012, 12:34:22 AM
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Wards being thaumaturgy seem like they would be made and maintained off camera or out of the main story. My wizard's home got trashed when the bad guys came for a visit last game session. I had not put any thought into wards for his house so I kind of got caught with my pants down so to speak.
So what kind of wards could my wizard have with a +5 Lore and Discipline, +4 conviction. Earth (+1 power), Air, and Water are his elements. Sorry I am away from my books now, so this is all memory. I have not ever had to make wards before so this is all new too me. Could someone walk me through the process please?
From the books I get the idea that Harry has some pretty powerful ones and he has to recast them or repower them so I need help with some ideas. Please help?!
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Wards being thaumaturgy, your evocation elements don't really enter into it, except as flavor for whatever traps you might set into them. The book assumption is that a wizard should have wards equal to the highest of his Conviction, Discipline, and Lore if he hasn't taken any effort to boost them.
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As GM, I default to all wizards having a simple ward equal to their Lore in any long term residence. Most do want to create something better and doing isn't difficult, it's just time consuming. One thing you'll want to discuss with your group is how many shifts are reasonable. Or, if working the other way, start setting up aspects until you run out of ideas then work with your GM on rolling them.
While you can use your favored elements for flavor, your Thaumaturgy specialties will affect the ward far more than Evocation. Skipping shifts and setup, here's an example I used for an NPC Necromancer, the ward totaled 28 shifts. Breakdown follows:- Duration of a mortal lifetime, 12 shifts
- Basic barrier / suppression effect rating / power 4, 4 shifts
- Enervating Drain (persistent block against movement), 12 shifts consisting of:
- Trigger (entering uninvited), 2 shifts
- Three zones (hall & entry, living room, stairs), 6 shifts
- Persistent movement block rating 2, 4 shifts
While it's not in the book, I did limit any single power rated result of the ward (barrier & drain) to a number of shifts equal to the necromancer's Lore - four in this case.
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So OK then I should have at least +5 wards, but how do I boost them mechanically. My house got shot up with automatic weapon's fire. I was thinking of a ward that would protect my property from physical damage, possibly with a evocation landmine. I just don't understand the mechanics involved. I can also overlay multiple kinds on my property as well right, like to give me a warning when things cross my property line, right?
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Thanks Umbra, I just cant wrap my mind around it. That helps a little.
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Landmines are something you should be wary of...at least damage causing landmines. Don't want to break the first law just because some kid ran across your lawn!
You can pretty much create any effect you can imagine within the limits of the number of shifts you can use. I would base such affects on your specialties though...like enervation for a necromancer. You could do something similar with gravity as an Earth effect.
You total ward power is going to be equal to your Lore plus two per aspect you can use. Declarations are the default method of creating tag-able aspects. If you can talk your group into assisting, you may also be able to use maneuvers. You can, of course, also spend fate or take consequences.
Unless you recast often, duration will probably be your largest single expenditure of shifts. After that you'll want the basic barrier / suppression, any keys (for pets or guests), and then any special affects / landmines and their triggers.
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So after re-reading the section on wards, it makes it sound like they repel the magical energies back at the caster, what about physical energies. If a guy runs full tilt into the ward would he take damage from the kinetic force? and what about gunfire? Would the bullets be repelled back at the shooters? If so is that a 1st law violation? Or do wards just work against magics?
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So after re-reading the section on wards, it makes it sound like they repel the magical energies back at the caster, what about physical energies. If a guy runs full tilt into the ward would he take damage from the kinetic force?
Don't know that he'd take significant damage (probably no more than if he fell while running) but he would be propelled backwards at essentially the same speed he hit the ward. (YS276, right column, first paragraph)
and what about gunfire? Would the bullets be repelled back at the shooters? If so is that a 1st law violation? Or do wards just work against magics?
Don't see anything explicit about weapon use but, given the text on walking into one, I'd say they're propelled backwards at Weapon value but unaimed. Just as dangerous (and very similar to) a ricochet.
Law violations are going to depend on group.
Edit: Personally, I'd say no law violation in this case...the shooter introduced deadly force not the caster.
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While you can use your favored elements for flavor, your Thaumaturgy specialties will affect the ward far more than Evocation. Skipping shifts and setup, here's an example I used for an NPC Necromancer, the ward totaled 28 shifts. Breakdown follows:- Duration of a mortal lifetime, 12 shifts
- Basic barrier / suppression effect rating / power 4, 4 shifts
- Enervating Drain (persistent block against movement), 12 shifts consisting of:
- Trigger (entering uninvited), 2 shifts
- Three zones (hall & entry, living room, stairs), 6 shifts
- Persistent movement block rating 2, 4 shifts
While it's not in the book, I did limit any single power rated result of the ward (barrier & drain) to a number of shifts equal to the necromancer's Lore - four in this case.
Note the bolded section. I haven't come across anywhere within the RAW or the novels to support something which would cause difficulty moving once someone was within a Ward, which is how I'm interpreting the Persistent movement block is meant to function. A Ward as I understand it is supposed to be a barrier, once the barrier is breached or penetrated... Similarly, while the idea of additional shifts due to a Warded area having multiple zones is interesting, I haven't come across anything about that in the RAW, in fact YS277 specifically mentions that
Wards don’t have a “scale” concern, the way that veils do, and they cannot move.
therefore I would treat adding shifts of Complexity to a Ward because the Warded area has multiple zone a "house rule". Also keep in mind that Harry's basement apartment had 3-4 zones in it. There was the kitchenette/living room area with fireplace, the bedroom, the bathroom & shower (which might have been part of the bedroom), and lastly Harry's lab in the sub-basement. Given that a Ward is intended to protect a practioner's home, I would expect that all such Wards would provide a barrier to multiple zones, since anything except a studio apartment is going to have at least three different rooms, and even a studio apartment will have two.
You total ward power is going to be equal to your Lore plus two per aspect you can use. Declarations are the default method of creating tag-able aspects. If you can talk your group into assisting, you may also be able to use maneuvers. You can, of course, also spend fate or take consequences.
Is there an area of Thaumaturgy which you're basing this off of, if so, where? The only relationship I'm aware of between Lore and the casting of a Ward is in determining how many shifts of Complexity the caster can manage 'off the cuff' without needing to spend time in preparation. Similarly, the only relevance I'm aware of with Aspects is that a caster can use their appropriate Aspects by spending Fate points to reduce the prep time for the spell. An example of this would be to cast a Ward with Complexity 16 (like the one I list below...) by a Hedge Wizard with Lore: Fair (+2) would leave 14 shifts of Complexity that the Hedge Wizard needs to make up, before casting can even begin. Now if the Hedge Wizard had seven relevant Aspects and enough Fate points to spend on activating all of them, he'd have reached the required 16 to match the Complexity of the spell and could start in casting immediately.
So after re-reading the section on wards, it makes it sound like they repel the magical energies back at the caster, what about physical energies. If a guy runs full tilt into the ward would he take damage from the kinetic force? and what about gunfire? Would the bullets be repelled back at the shooters? If so is that a 1st law violation? Or do wards just work against magics?
While the RAW might suggest that Wards provide a physical as well as magical barrier, the novels and short stories suggest otherwise.
In the short story Day Off, something was thrown through one of Harry's windows. In Ghost Story, bullets were fired into/through the windows and walls of someone's house that had a Ward.
The spell below if from the campaign I'm running set in New Haven, CT.
Eric Holt's Cabin Ward*
This is the Ward around caretaker Eric Holt's cabin at BSA Camp Mattabessitt in Bethany, CT.
Type:
Thaumaturgy, Wards
Complexity:
16
Duration:
One month (+4 Complexity)
Effect:
An 8-shift Block on entry into the cabin (+8 Complexity)
Notes:
Wardflames provide warning to those within the cabin if supernatural entities or beings approach within 100 yards of the cabin. (+2 Complexity)
Additionally, the key to the lock in the cabin door is a symbolic link, alerting Eric if something comes into contact with the Ward while he's away from his cabin. (+2 Complexity)
This was something put together by a Hedge Wizard who at the time had Conviction: Good (+3), Discipline: Good (+3) and Lore: Fair (+2). The time estimate was that casting the spell itself took about 4 hours with a similar amount of time spent in preparation for casting. Given the duration, the spell needs to be renewed monthly.
A few things to consider with Wards. You want the basic Block to be fairly high. If it's not then it would be relatively easy for a magical opponent to breach or collapse the Ward. If a Ward only has a Great (+4) strength basic Block, then any Discipline roll of Great (+4) or higher will get through and either allow the Ward or the people inside to be targeted. YS276 even mentions...
The base complexity of a ward is directly related to its desired strength, so you should aim for this to be pretty high: 8 shifts (Legendary) is a pretty good target to shoot for if you’re moderately good. This represents the ward’s capacity for reflecting attacks.
On average, two Evocation attacks from a caster with Conviction and Discipline of Great (+4) would collapse a Ward with a basic Block strength of only Great (+4). The first attack, rolling a net of +0 added to Discipline would match the strength of the Block, leaving the 4 shifts of power from Conviction to reduce the strength of Block down to Mediocre (+0), which leaves the Ward so weak that the second attack can't miss even if the roll was a net -4, and there would still be 4 shifts of power to bring the Ward to -4 at which point it dissipates.
-Cheers
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Note the bolded section. I haven't come across anywhere within the RAW or the novels to support something which would cause difficulty moving once someone was within a Ward, which is how I'm interpreting the Persistent movement block is meant to function. A Ward as I understand it is supposed to be a barrier, once the barrier is breached or penetrated... Similarly, while the idea of additional shifts due to a Warded area having multiple zones is interesting, I haven't come across anything about that in the RAW, in fact YS277 specifically mentions that
therefore I would treat adding shifts of Complexity to a Ward because the Warded area has multiple zone a "house rule". Also keep in mind that Harry's basement apartment had 3-4 zones in it. There was the kitchenette/living room area with fireplace, the bedroom, the bathroom & shower (which might have been part of the bedroom), and lastly Harry's lab in the sub-basement. Given that a Ward is intended to protect a practioner's home, I would expect that all such Wards would provide a barrier to multiple zones, since anything except a studio apartment is going to have at least three different rooms, and even a studio apartment will have two.
I believe that bolded section to be representative of a 'landmine', not the primary ward itself. I believe this distinction addresses most or all of the above concerns.
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Note the bolded section. I haven't come across anywhere within the RAW or the novels to support something which would cause difficulty moving once someone was within a Ward, which is how I'm interpreting the Persistent movement block is meant to function.
Tedronai is correct. See YS276 right column second paragraph and YS277 left column fourth paragraph. It's simply a "landmine" set up as a movement block instead of an attack.
A Ward as I understand it is supposed to be a barrier, once the barrier is breached or penetrated... Similarly, while the idea of additional shifts due to a Warded area having multiple zones is interesting, I haven't come across anything about that in the RAW, in fact YS277 specifically mentions that
therefore I would treat adding shifts of Complexity to a Ward because the Warded area has multiple zone a "house rule". Also keep in mind that Harry's basement apartment had 3-4 zones in it. There was the kitchenette/living room area with fireplace, the bedroom, the bathroom & shower (which might have been part of the bedroom), and lastly Harry's lab in the sub-basement. Given that a Ward is intended to protect a practioner's home, I would expect that all such Wards would provide a barrier to multiple zones, since anything except a studio apartment is going to have at least three different rooms, and even a studio apartment will have two.
Not sure I'm understanding but, it was the landmine which paid for multiple zones, not the ward itself. (If I have misunderstood your point please correct me.)
Is there an area of Thaumaturgy which you're basing this off of, if so, where? The only relationship I'm aware of between Lore and the casting of a Ward is in determining how many shifts of Complexity the caster can manage 'off the cuff' without needing to spend time in preparation. Similarly, the only relevance I'm aware of with Aspects is that a caster can use their appropriate Aspects by spending Fate points to reduce the prep time for the spell. An example of this would be to cast a Ward with Complexity 16 (like the one I list below...) by a Hedge Wizard with Lore: Fair (+2) would leave 14 shifts of Complexity that the Hedge Wizard needs to make up, before casting can even begin. Now if the Hedge Wizard had seven relevant Aspects and enough Fate points to spend on activating all of them, he'd have reached the required 16 to match the Complexity of the spell and could start in casting immediately.
YS262 "How to do it" for the short version ("You must make up the deficit between your Lore and the total complexity of the spell") and YS266-270 "Preparation" and "Ajdudicating Preparation" for the long version.
While the RAW might suggest that Wards provide a physical as well as magical barrier, the novels and short stories suggest otherwise.
In the short story Day Off, something was thrown through one of Harry's windows. In Ghost Story, bullets were fired into/through the windows and walls of someone's house that had a Ward.
I agree. Went with the game text when responding above. ;)
The spell below if from the campaign I'm running set in New Haven, CT.
Eric Holt's Cabin Ward*
This is the Ward around caretaker Eric Holt's cabin at BSA Camp Mattabessitt in Bethany, CT.
Type:
Thaumaturgy, Wards
Complexity:
16
Duration:
One month (+4 Complexity)
Effect:
An 8-shift Block on entry into the cabin (+8 Complexity)
Notes:
Wardflames provide warning to those within the cabin if supernatural entities or beings approach within 100 yards of the cabin. (+2 Complexity)
Additionally, the key to the lock in the cabin door is a symbolic link, alerting Eric if something comes into contact with the Ward while he's away from his cabin. (+2 Complexity)
Looks decent. I won't use an 8 shift basic ward against the PCs - find it kinda cheesy. (It's why I limit NPCs to Lore for any given effect.) But there's nothing preventing it in the book.
This was something put together by a Hedge Wizard who at the time had Conviction: Good (+3), Discipline: Good (+3) and Lore: Fair (+2). The time estimate was that casting the spell itself took about 4 hours with a similar amount of time spent in preparation for casting. Given the duration, the spell needs to be renewed monthly.
A few things to consider with Wards. You want the basic Block to be fairly high. If it's not then it would be relatively easy for a magical opponent to breach or collapse the Ward. If a Ward only has a Great (+4) strength basic Block, then any Discipline roll of Great (+4) or higher will get through and either allow the Ward or the people inside to be targeted. YS276 even mentions...
Yep! Temporarily at least...and with the attack reduced by the power of the ward. Taking the ward down permanently means beating the entire ward by 4+.
On average, two Evocation attacks from a caster with Conviction and Discipline of Great (+4) would collapse a Ward with a basic Block strength of only Great (+4). The first attack, rolling a net of +0 added to Discipline would match the strength of the Block, leaving the 4 shifts of power from Conviction to reduce the strength of Block down to Mediocre (+0), which leaves the Ward so weak that the second attack can't miss even if the roll was a net -4, and there would still be 4 shifts of power to bring the Ward to -4 at which point it dissipates.
Per YS276, shifts are reduced by the block and you can either use excess shifts against a target inside or against the ward itself. The ward, not the block. So it will take a bit more than two attacks to take the entire ward down.
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So if I don't want my place shot up again - can I do a landmine type addition to a ward to stop the bullets. Flavoring it with my elements - i know not needed, but makes sense - as an earth mage I was picturing the bullets pulled by gravity to the ground before they hit my house, and unwanted visitors stopped in their tracks because they are suddenly held in place by a sudden influx on gravity - not smashed, but held - like a gravity cage. Both could be written up as evocation spells, so could they be tacked onto a ward as a landmine? It sounds like they could be.
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Yep. Landmines are part of (inside) the ward and need to be cast as a single thaumaturgy spell. They're also based on evocation and need to pay for coverage by zone. So your total shifts can add up quickly.
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Looks decent. I won't use an 8 shift basic ward against the PCs - find it kinda cheesy. (It's why I limit NPCs to Lore for any given effect.) But there's nothing preventing it in the book.
While it's formidable to swift entry, it should be the sort of thing that can be taken down pretty quickly through thaumaturgy. A Feet-in-the-Water thaumaturge can probably dismantle it in five exchanges, with a spell that costs no more than two of a declaration, an invocation of an aspect, or a mild mental consequence. It's a barrier, but hardly insurmountable.
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I agree with almost everything you said Vargo. However, I generally put thaumaturgy exchanges at minutes or even hours per exchange. Unless we're talking thaumaturgy at evocation speeds at least.
So it's significant if thinking in combat terms.
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Tedronai is correct. See YS276 right column second paragraph and YS277 left column fourth paragraph. It's simply a "landmine" set up as a movement block instead of an attack.
AND
Not sure I'm understanding but, it was the landmine which paid for multiple zones, not the ward itself. (If I have misunderstood your point please correct me.)
Okay, somehow I misunderstood that the persistent block vs. movement was the result of a 'landmine' so it makes a bit more sense now. Not sure that I'd require a trigger though, since forcing oneself into/through the Ward does seem to me to be an automatic implied trigger anyway. Having a special condition and some sort of symbolic link for the caster so that they aren't effected by the zone-wide blocks against movement would seem sensible though.
Looks decent. I won't use an 8 shift basic ward against the PCs - find it kinda cheesy. (It's why I limit NPCs to Lore for any given effect.) But there's nothing preventing it in the book.
Actually, that Ward is a defense around one of the character's homes, and the Ward itself has already been damaged once.
Yep! Temporarily at least...and with the attack reduced by the power of the ward. Taking the ward down permanently means beating the entire ward by 4+.
AND
Per YS276, shifts are reduced by the block and you can either use excess shifts against a target inside or against the ward itself. The ward, not the block. So it will take a bit more than two attacks to take the entire ward down.
I agree, but here is my take on it. From my reading of YS276-277, the 'strength' of the Ward is determined by the strength of the Block, landmines, selective conditions and extended duration all add to the overall Complexity when casting the Ward, but don't make it stronger.
So, lets go through an example here of a Rote evocation attack from a caster with Great (+4) Conviction and Discipline where the attack doesn't make use of any specializations or focus items.
Again, the Ward has a Block strength of Great (+4), which gets treated and potentially bypassed just like a normal block per YS276. Assuming the attacking caster rolls a +0, their net attack works out to Great (+4) due to their Discipline, which is a match for the strength of the Block: Great (+4), but ties go to the attacker so that counts as a 'hit' but with +0 shifts of success, and per YS210 the weapon strength, or in this cast the power of the evocation gets added to the total shifts of success for a net of +4 shifts of success. If the attacker chooses to apply all 4 shifts of success to attacking the strength of the Ward, that Ward quickly goes from Great to Mediocre and the Block strength is effected as well. At Mediocre the Ward is still there, but no longer presents much of a barrier, though any special conditions and/or landmines would remain in effect. A second evocation attack from the same caster and of the same strength would automatically bring the Ward down, since they would need to meet or beat a Mediocre targeting roll, and then do a minimum of 4 shifts of damage to the Ward itself.
I agree with almost everything you said Vargo. However, I generally put thaumaturgy exchanges at minutes or even hours per exchange. Unless we're talking thaumaturgy at evocation speeds at least.
So it's significant if thinking in combat terms.
I myself generally set non-combat Thaumaturgy exchanges to 15 minutes per change, about the length of a non-combat scene usually.
-Cheers
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I myself generally set non-combat Thaumaturgy exchanges to 15 minutes per change, about the length of a non-combat scene usually.
How many exchanges pe roll if trying to cast In combat?
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How many exchanges pe roll if trying to cast In combat?
/smartass/ All of them?
Anywhere from 50-150 exchanges depending on the type of conflict.
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How many exchanges pe roll if trying to cast In combat?
I admit, I like Devonapple's reply to this.
For a more serious reply though, I need to make sure I understand the question. Are you asking, "how many combat exchanges occur during/between Thaumaturgy rolls?"
If that is indeed the question, it's never really come up in one of my games. Yet. Of course now that I've made that comment, it will most likely occur this Saturday in the next session...
Speaking broadly, I don't make my casters roll for to succeed at their Thaumaturgy or Ectomancy spell (currently no Channelers or Evocators in the group...) rolls, as long as they can take their time and they have at least Good (+3) in all the relevant skills.
In the case of the character Eric Holt, I allowed the character to call up and successfully control 1 shift of power every exchange/15 minutes without rolling, since Conviction and Discipline were both Good (+3) and the player wasn't interested in rushing the Ward, as it was mostly being done 'off camera'. The guideline I was following was skill level -2 = # of shifts safely managed automatically when able to take time.
Incidentally, I'm planning on taking a crack at Harry's Ward as of Dead Beat in the near future and would appreciate any commentary once I post it.
-Cheers
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure that, once you have the preparations done, you get a roll per exchange to call up and control the power of the spell (at least when time is an issue). This is why Harry can repeatedly quick cast his light weight tracking spell. Things get into the 15 minute range per roll range when some of your preparations are activities taken during the ritual rather than acquisitions made before you even start it. That said, I'd expect most spells to be designed with activities during the spell in mind just so they can reach the necessary complexity without huge amounts of even more time consuming (but also more durable) preparations.
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Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that one of the ways YS suggests spicing up Thaumaturgy is by having you need to cast a spell while the badguys are storming the gates, which suggests casting as quickly as you can in a few minutes, rather than taking hours.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure that, once you have the preparations done, you get a roll per exchange to call up and control the power of the spell (at least when time is an issue). This is why Harry can repeatedly quick cast his light weight tracking spell. Things get into the 15 minute range per roll range when some of your preparations are activities taken during the ritual rather than acquisitions made before you even start it. That said, I'd expect most spells to be designed with activities during the spell in mind just so they can reach the necessary complexity without huge amounts of even more time consuming (but also more durable) preparations.
This was my read on it. Thaumaturgy is lengthy because it takes time to prepare. Actual casting is one roll per exchange. Otherwise you can't have the interesting darkhallow type scene where some baddie is casting a ritual and the PCs are trying to muck it up before he finishes.
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In truth, there just isn't a lot of guidance on it. We know that even the easiest ritual takes at least a minute, and this is presumably for easy, no-prep rituals. But that doesn't necessarily translate into a minute per exchange.
Likewise, conflict exchanges are themselves fairly mutable, from small-scale tactical (1-15 seconds?) all the way up to glacial social exchanges (days, weeks or more).
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure that, once you have the preparations done, you get a roll per exchange to call up and control the power of the spell (at least when time is an issue). This is why Harry can repeatedly quick cast his light weight tracking spell. Things get into the 15 minute range per roll range when some of your preparations are activities taken during the ritual rather than acquisitions made before you even start it. That said, I'd expect most spells to be designed with activities during the spell in mind just so they can reach the necessary complexity without huge amounts of even more time consuming (but also more durable) preparations.
No you have it right, when casting a Thaumaturgy spell you get a roll per Exchange to call up the power and a roll to control that power. The thing to keep in mind is that an Exchange doesn't automatically correspond to a set period of time. A combat Exchange for instance might only last a few seconds. From the novels, a Thaumaturgy spell cast in a hurry should still take about a minute.
The guidelines I use for an Exchange when one of my players is using Thaumaturgy is that if they are taking their time to ensure a successful casting, then each Exchange lasts about 15 minutes and they can automatically succeed in calling up Conviction -2 shifts of power and controlling Discipline -2 shifts of power each exchange, with the player deciding how much power they called up and controlled in a given exchange. That is usually the lesser of the two.
If the player opts to cast a Thamaturgy or Ritual spell faster, then I would shorten the time of an Exchange down to about a minute per Exchange, but require the player to decide how much power they are attempting to call up and control each Exchange, and requiring the player to roll for success or failure...
-Cheers
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If they are taking the time to ensure success and have no time restraint then they have no need to roll (or gather energy at any rate, etc) at all.
In a low-pressure situation, you can go ahead
and cast the spell without making any rolls. It’ll
all happen within the space of time it would take
to run a single scene of conflict—often less—
as it’s just a matter of a few exchanges to cast a
spell.
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I come close to Todjaeger's method except I don't really use set time frames for preparation. The time is "what makes sense for the action". So drawing a circle is a few minutes while running to a curio shop across town and buying Egyptian incense may take an hour...or no time at all if done as a declaration (i.e. you did it the day before). Drawing a complex series of runes takes a few minutes, ritual purification may take a few hours, and fasting may take a day or two. When they are done as maneuvers rather than declarations, I do use the time chart and PCs can make an action quicker by making it more difficult.
How much is done as declaration and how much as maneuver generally depends on the situation and whether or not the whole group is involved.
If Discipline is at +5, there's no need to roll to control power as long as they have time to draw it one shift at a time. With lower Discipline skills whether or not I ask for a roll depends on how much lower and how interesting failure would be. If you can wait a week and try again without consequence there's not much point in rolling. But if you're trying to rush that ritual in before the bad guy shows up... :D
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I come close to Todjaeger's method except I don't really use set time frames for preparation. The time is "what makes sense for the action". So drawing a circle is a few minutes while running to a curio shop across town and buying Egyptian incense may take an hour...or no time at all if done as a declaration (i.e. you did it the day before). Drawing a complex series of runes takes a few minutes, ritual purification may take a few hours, and fasting may take a day or two. When they are done as maneuvers rather than declarations, I do use the time chart and PCs can make an action quicker by making it more difficult.
The time frame I use for preparation is really more to gauge how much time the other players have to do, while the caster is off getting ready to cast something, or being wizardly. The other reason for using it as a general gauge is that the bad guys also have a chance to prepare things as well, or take actions, potentially interrupting the casting mid-ritual. The last reason I have for using it as a general gauge is that in my opinion, a caster can really only spend so much time actually casting a spell before they start becoming fatigued enough where they might fail. What that ends up doing it setting an upper limit to have many shifts of Complexity a caster can handle without needing to roll, and without the risk of catastrophic failure. From my perspective, something like 8 - 12 hours of casting without interruption would be a 'normal' upper limit for a caster to manage in a single day, with about 4 Exchanges of casting per hour (roughly...) Again, these are the rules I generally follow for 'off camera' casting.
Now depending on the nature of the spell being cast, and just what some of the desired preparations are, I might well require more or less time to gather materials, etc. It is also likely worth noting here that Harry mentions in the short story Last Call that much of the materials required for black magic and the like can be purchased at a local grocery store... Now, for items that are 'special' which are desired for the spell, like a vial of WCV blood, or venom from a Red Court vampire, those I might require the player(s) to get in-game, with the time spent in-game counting towards the prep time.
The basic idea premise I follow is that Thaumaturgy is there to make the game interesting, and allow players to do things they otherwise wouldn't be capable of. I just don't want it to end up bogging the game.
If they are taking the time to ensure success and have no time restraint then they have no need to roll (or gather energy at any rate, etc) at all.
Quite true, that is why if a character has at least Good in the relevant skills, they can't screw up if they take their time which is why I don't require their characters to roll. It they're taking their time that is...
-Cheers
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So here is my first attempt at the ward I would like. Please tell me if I am way off.
• Duration of a few months, 5 shifts
• Basic barrier / power 8, 8 shifts
• Gravity Sink Landmine (persistent block against movement – bullets and flying things are pulled to the ground as well as people without they key will be pulled to the ground and held by extreme gravity – not crushed just held), 12 shifts consisting of:
• Four zones (10 feet of yard around house on 4 sides), 8 shifts
• Persistent, for 3 additional rounds of time, 3 shifts
• Total of 36 shifts, at 15 minutes per exchange it will take 9 hrs to cast trickling in 1 shift of power per exchange. If 2 shifts are put in it will take 4.5 hrs.
• With a lore of +5 I would need 29 shifts to be made up through declarations, Aspects and what not.
Does it look right? Or am I way off.
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So here is my first attempt at the ward I would like. Please tell me if I am way off.
• Duration of a few months, 5 shifts
• Basic barrier / power 8, 8 shifts
Duration and barrier look correct.
• Gravity Sink Landmine (persistent block against movement – bullets and flying things are pulled to the ground as well as people without they key will be pulled to the ground and held by extreme gravity – not crushed just held), 12 shifts consisting of:
• Four zones (10 feet of yard around house on 4 sides), 8 shifts
• Persistent, for 3 additional rounds of time, 3 shifts
Keep in mind, landmines should follow evocation guidelines. That leads to two issues, a potential third is the location of your zones. First, a block which stops bullets is probably a block against damage not movement. Second, the block(s) itself needs to have a rating and be paid for with shifts of power from the spell. Also keep in mind a "persistent" block is modeled after an armor block spell - it will cost two shifts per point of effect.
As written, it looks like you want a block against damage and a block against movement. They'll need to be set up as separate landmines even if overlapping. Regarding landmine zone locations, they need to be inside the ward. By default that means inside the walls of your house.
If your group is in agreement, you could extend your ward outside the house - perhaps to the property or fence line. However you will need to set up some form of threshold to base the ward on - this usually means a physical barrier of some type but, at minimum, should be some form of a physical "Circle" (metaphysical circle not necessarily a circle shape). It's easier, and safer, to just keep the wards and landmines inside the house. :)
• Total of 36 shifts, at 15 minutes per exchange it will take 9 hrs to cast trickling in 1 shift of power per exchange. If 2 shifts are put in it will take 4.5 hrs.
• With a lore of +5 I would need 29 shifts to be made up through declarations, Aspects and what not.
Does it look right? Or am I way off.
It doesn't look like your math adds up to 36 shifts...though I may be missing something. Also, your shifts may change as you modify your landmines. :)
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Yeah this was done at work without books or notes from memory. Sorry it doesn't add up. Wow I'm kinda embarassed. So what would I need to change. I was thinking about 5-10 feet out from the house would be where the effect starts pulling things to the ground. I guess I could make it 2 landmines, 1 movement and one an armor type against my home taking damage, I just wanted the bad stuff to stop before it got to my home.
How would you change it?
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How would you change it?
It will be fairly expensive in terms of shifts to do everything you're looking for and placing it outside the house is either a liberal interpretation or a house rule depending on who you talk to. :) So that will need your group's agreement.
Here's a stab at the rest of it:- [5] - Duration of a few months
- [8] - basic barrier / suppression rating 8
- [6+] - Bullet trap
- (4) - Rating 2 armor or rating 4 block - depending on whether you want it to drop once pierced
- (2 x zones) - how much of the house does it cover? Most effective use is probably street facing zones.
- (0+) - 2 per trigger if it's not always on
- [8+] - Man trap
- (4) - Rating 2 persistent (as armor) or rating 4 block - depending on whether you want it to drop once successfully moved through
- (2 x zones) - how much of the house does it cover? I'd recommend placing in choke points - entries, halls, stairs, etc.
- (2+) - 2 per trigger (I don't see you leaving this on all the time)
That's 27 shifts if the landmines only cover one zone each. With that many shifts, you're not going to want to recast on a regular basis. I'd recommend adding a few more to duration - just three more gets you to only renewing once a year. :)
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It will be fairly expensive in terms of shifts to do everything you're looking for and placing it outside the house is either a liberal interpretation or a house rule depending on who you talk to. :) So that will need your group's agreement.
A solution to that problem would be either to extend the ward to the property line (if your group is liberal about the threshold necessary) or fence, or create a second ward that extends to that line and contains the suppression mines (while the primary ward would be more fortified).
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Thanks for the example, Umbra.
Sinker, I'm not sure how that would look, Could you explain further please?
Here is my second attempt, which I also posted on the other Ward thread I started, it is expensive, and I probably would extend duration to a year because of it.
• Duration of a few months, 5 shifts
• Basic barrier / / power 8, 8 shifts
• Key for safe passage though, 2 shifts
• Gravity Sink Landmine (Walls of house are protected by Armor:4, bullets and flying object are pulled to the ground before they hit the house), 8 shifts
• Gravity Cage Landmine (persistent block against movement – Living creatures are pulled to the ground and held by extreme gravity – not crushed just held), 19 shifts consisting of:
• Block:8 vs. movement, 8 shifts
• Four zones (Kitchen/Living Area, 2 Bedrooms, Hall/Bath), 8 shifts
• Persistent, for 3 additional rounds of time, 3 shifts
• Total of 5+8+2+8+19=42 shifts, at 15 minutes per exchange it will take 10.5 hrs to cast trickling in 1 shift of power per exchange. If 2 shifts are put in it will take 5.25 hrs.
• With my character’s Lore of +5 I would need 37 shifts to be made up through declarations Aspects and what not.
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Thanks for the example, Umbra.
No problem.
Here is my second attempt, which I also posted on the other Ward thread I started, it is expensive, and I probably would extend duration to a year because of it.
• Duration of a few months, 5 shifts
• Basic barrier / / power 8, 8 shifts
• Key for safe passage though, 2 shifts
• Gravity Sink Landmine (Walls of house are protected by Armor:4, bullets and flying object are pulled to the ground before they hit the house), 8 shifts
• Gravity Cage Landmine (persistent block against movement – Living creatures are pulled to the ground and held by extreme gravity – not crushed just held), 19 shifts consisting of:
• Block:8 vs. movement, 8 shifts
• Four zones (Kitchen/Living Area, 2 Bedrooms, Hall/Bath), 8 shifts
• Persistent, for 3 additional rounds of time, 3 shifts
• Total of 5+8+2+8+19=42 shifts, at 15 minutes per exchange it will take 10.5 hrs to cast trickling in 1 shift of power per exchange. If 2 shifts are put in it will take 5.25 hrs.
• With my character’s Lore of +5 I would need 37 shifts to be made up through declarations Aspects and what not.
I suggest a trigger for the movement block unless you want it to affect everyone (maintenance, pet, neighbor, friend, child, and family as well as thief) who might enter uninvited. Only other comment is key vs trigger...one lets the key holder/user in while the other is passive until triggered. It's mostly semantics - both are two shifts each - but it's worth being clear if you expect it to be set off. ;)
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OK, I was just picturing having and giving a key type item to my friends(aka other PC's) like Harry does for his friends, which brings up a question - does each 'key' cost 2 shifts? If so that could get expensive quick, so I would probably use a trigger then.
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The problem that UmbraLux was bringing up (and that I was addressing with that comment) is that a ward needs a threshold to last more than a short period of time, so if you were planning to extend the ward outside of your home, then you'd need to find another boundary to use. Fences or rivers work (how about a moat? :D) as they are both things that we view as separating one thing from the other.
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OK, I was just picturing having and giving a key type item to my friends(aka other PC's) like Harry does for his friends, which brings up a question - does each 'key' cost 2 shifts? If so that could get expensive quick, so I would probably use a trigger then.
The RAW gives an example on YS277 of a simple condition which adds +2 to the Complexity, but would allow someone to pass through a Ward unaffected as long as they are wearing one of five amulets... That suggests that something like multiple 'keys' could be setup for only +2, instead of +2 per 'key'. From a storytelling angle, it would make sense that the 5 'keys' would need to be identical. Something else to consider when creating 'keys' is whether or not the 'key' will work for anyone holding/wearing/whatever it... If the keys will work for anyone, then I would say multiple ones could be created for only +2 Complexity. If the keys will only work for specific people, then I would likely require +2 Complexity per person, and then an additional +2 Complexity if those people need to have a specific 'key' with them to enter.
-Cheers
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OK, I was just picturing having and giving a key type item to my friends(aka other PC's) like Harry does for his friends, which brings up a question - does each 'key' cost 2 shifts? If so that could get expensive quick, so I would probably use a trigger then.
Depends. :)
The page Todjaeger references states "2 per condition". So a class of things (all amulets with the rune for 'open' written in my blood on them), a word or gesture anyone could use, and an individual - "Fred" will each cost two shifts. It's all about choosing your limitations...and you usually get what you pay for.
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As written, it looks like you want a block against damage and a block against movement. They'll need to be set up as separate landmines even if overlapping. Regarding landmine zone locations, they need to be inside the ward. By default that means inside the walls of your house.
It might depend on the nature of the Block. For example, a wall of Force (Spirit evocation Block) would prevent matter from passing through it, whether that matter was people or bullets, but it wouldn't due much for energy like well, heat.
Incidentally, Harry had as part of his Ward at one point an activated barrier that would prevent things from entering into or out of his Ward, and I believe it actually covered the entire boarding house and once activated had a duration until sunrise.
-Cheers
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From a thematic standpoint you're right, but the mechanics are a different story. RAW is clear that the block can effect one action by all targets or all actions by one target. Since this block applies to all targets, it must select a single action to prevent.
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@Sinker, Well his house is a small beach house type in Hawaii, so a moat might be in order and definitely doable :).
@Todjaeger, thanks for the clarification.
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@Todjaeger: Sinker pointed out the mechanical requirements. I tend to adjust the description to fit rather than the other way around. Mostly because it's too easy to come up with unbalancing thematic descriptions. It prevents me from hearing "I create a ward of gravitational energy warping the fabric of space-time itself." and wanting to respond "You disappear in a micro-blackhole which lasts a fraction of a microsecond." ;) All that said, you do have a point...if your group prefers a thematic model it is a reasonable house rule.
@JediDresden: One thing worth pointing out on thaumaturgy going over some GM-dependent number of shifts is the Ritual section on YS267. "Some rituals also require tools and components that are difficult to fashion or acquire..." I generally want those in order to get to take out level, which I consider to start at 30, and another for each 10 shifts over that. Mostly because take out level is where I want to start making thaumaturgy rare and difficult.
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So would it be better to make 2 seperate wards instead of trying to combine them all into one? It seems like I could get the same basic effect for less overall shifts...well maybe not, but easier chunks for my wizard to do, instead of one mega ward.
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So would it be better to make 2 seperate wards instead of trying to combine them all into one?
I don't think you can - not in one house at least. You can (probably have to) put separate wards on distinct structures but YS277 specifically states your ward "must all be cast as one spell".
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I was just wondering about overlaying different effects.
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There is nothing that I'm aware of (either in the rules or the novels) that would prevent a given threshold from supporting multiple distinct wards. In fact, such a strategy seems very similar to what Harry used to 'ward' the storage facility/safehouse.
There is some significant potential for abuse with regards to numerous weak highly permissive wards being used to support powerful landmines while devoting a single ward to creating the most potent conventional barrier possible.
GMs be warned.
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There is nothing that I'm aware of (either in the rules or the novels) that would prevent a given threshold from supporting multiple distinct wards.
Except possibly for the part stating "It must all be cast as one spell." That seems to disallow multiple wards tied to the same threshold. It may allow warding an interior room or circle in addition to a house ward.
In fact, such a strategy seems very similar to what Harry used to 'ward' the storage facility/safehouse.
Which book is this in? Not ringing a bell at the moment.
There is some significant potential for abuse with regards to numerous weak highly permissive wards being used to support powerful landmines while devoting a single ward to creating the most potent conventional barrier possible.
GMs be warned.
I think I'd allow the circle but only one per structure/threshold otherwise.
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Except possibly for the part stating "It must all be cast as one spell." That seems to disallow multiple wards tied to the same threshold. It may allow warding an interior room or circle in addition to a house ward.
Actually in the Warrior, Harry has a gun safe which seems to bear some sort of Ward on it as well, which does indeed suggest a Ward-within-a-Ward is possible
Which book is this in? Not ringing a bell at the moment.
In Turn Coat, Harry had a storage facility with a Faraday cage to provide something resembling a weak Threshold.
I think I'd allow the circle but only one per structure/threshold otherwise.
The "LEGO" approach to Wards might be best replicated with a series of individually weak overall Wards which are stronger acting in concert
-Cheers
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Actually in the Warrior, Harry has a gun safe which seems to bear some sort of Ward on it as well, which does indeed suggest a Ward-within-a-Ward is possible
In Turn Coat, Harry had a storage facility with a Faraday cage to provide something resembling a weak Threshold.
Was going by the game text rather than the fiction but I'm not sure either of these change that. Both a safe and a faraday cage are standalone structures. They're not (usually) part of the building containing them. (I'd probably go with a circle for the safe unless it was a walk-in vault.)
The "LEGO" approach to Wards might be best replicated with a series of individually weak overall Wards which are stronger acting in concert
Are you referring to Ghost Story? If so, I'd model it as an aspect rather than separate wards.
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I always pictured wards being able to be layered so to speak, but if not I could do it another way. The house in need of wards is a beach style home in Hawaii. It is completely encircled by a deck running around the whole house (not that it is that big of a house, it is actually quite small).
So I could use the house itself for one ward and then anchor the second onto the outside edge of the porch 'encircling 'the house. A deck is a metaphorical boundary or 'threshold' from the yard, granted probably not a strong one, but one none the less.
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Was going by the game text rather than the fiction but I'm not sure either of these change that. Both a safe and a faraday cage are standalone structures. They're not (usually) part of the building containing them.
The 'Faraday Cage' was a metaphor used to describe the effect of the wards Harry placed on the facility, not the structure the wards themselves were built upon.
The wards on that facility were explicitly described as being composed of numerous weak protection spells layered one upon another until the whole created the desired effect.
The quote from YS about being cast 'all as one spell' supports at best a tenuous conclusion against what I described; just as easily, perhaps more so, it could be read to require that any and all landmines attached to a particular ward must be cast as part of the same spell as that ward, and placing no restrictions whatsoever on whether other wards, with other landmines, can be supported on the same threshold.
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The quote from YS about being cast 'all as one spell' supports at best a tenuous conclusion against what I described; just as easily, perhaps more so, it could be read to require that any and all landmines attached to a particular ward must be cast as part of the same spell as that ward, and placing no restrictions whatsoever on whether other wards, with other landmines, can be supported on the same threshold.
That's the way I have been reading it myself.