ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: grimward on February 03, 2012, 06:09:30 PM

Title: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: grimward on February 03, 2012, 06:09:30 PM

Got a friend that wants to play a focused practitioner specializing in ectomancy. His idea is to summon spirits to aid him whenever he gets into a fight (his character is really not combat focused). He wants these ghosts to manifest and defend him.

Right now he has a Stu-from-Ghost-Story-esque spirit that tags along with him pretty much everywhere, and for the most part remains incorporeal. When the crap hits the fan though, Stu, along with several other spirits, will manifest and defend his character. One usually whisks him away to safety while the others run around beating the crap out of everyone. He's got Stu statted up, and he uses the stats for Li Xian (OW: 171) for the others.

Now, I'm not really worried about this being unbalanced (the others in the group don't have a lot of trouble keeping up with the spooks), I just want to know whether or not he could do it with the powers he has. I know he's got Ritual: Ectomancy, and something else that I can't remember at the moment. I think it's an IoP, a horn that lets him summon Stu and makes him manifest.

Could he do all this with just an ectomancy spell? If it is just a spell, how would it should it work? Should we try to work something else out? I've seen some ideas for summoning creatures floating around the board, would those work? Do you think the ghosts would eventually be driven insane from being forced (or compelled or asked or whatever) to manifest so much?

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: Mr. Death on February 03, 2012, 06:14:12 PM

Generally speaking, the strength of anything you summon (the book tends to go with demons) depends on how much power he puts into the spell. So yeah, he should be able to do that, if he can summon up enough shifts for it. I don't think there's any solid example in the books for how to translate shifts of power into the strength of something, but off the top of my head, I'd consider it fair that however many shifts he puts into the spell is the amount of refresh he can put into a given summoned ghost--so an Ectomancy spell of 5 shifts might summon something with Inhuman Strength and Inhuman Speed for two rounds.

I could, of course, be completely wrong on this, because as I said, the books don't really offer a clear idea on how the shifts generated translate into powers.

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: devonapple on February 03, 2012, 06:26:16 PM

I don't think the ghosts would go insane from use or overuse, all things considered. That said, the implications of "Ghost Story" mean that you can opt to introduce Compels or other complications based on a conception of ghost fatigue, ghost memory consumption, etc. The ectomancer's High Concept or another Aspect may provide a clue as to his relationship to his spirits, the way he tends to use or abuse them, which should in turn guide how they respond under his rule: Compelling that Aspect becomes an opportunity to customize his ectomancy experience.

Ghosts are likely to get chewed up and fade away more quickly under a Machiavellian ectomancer who sees them as cattle, cannon fodder, etc., and he may be Compelled with complications like "your spirit succumbs to the oblivion of complete apathy as he spends his final memory to hold off the rampaging ghouls." More sensitive ectomancers can be Compelled with complications like "your ghost friend is seriously fading, and you can tell he's spent his memories recklessly fighting for you - maybe you can work on resolving some of the issues from his former life in the hopes that he will take strength from that".

Having allies is a function of Resources, and summoning them using Rituals is basically substituting a Rituals check for the Resources check. There are two major thoughts on Allies/Summoned creatures/minions:
1) Allies are GM-created, and he assigns a Resources/Rituals difficulty which has to be met in order to secure them for a scene, and adding shifts to that roll secures the ally for longer. Rent-a-guard? Resources 3. Kincaid? Resources 12. Demonic assassin? Thaumaturgy Resources 35. They all *can* be secured using similar rules.
2) Allies are player-created; the GM reviews the powers and skills of the ally, and determines a Resources/Rituals difficulty which has to be met in order to secure them for a scene, and adding shifts to that roll secures the ally for longer. This is what Sanctaphrax, UmbraLux and I were trying to do long ago, and we tried to factor in the Skills, Powers, special Aspects, competence, and obedience to get a final Summoning DC used to determine how many shifts a Summoner would need.

Mind you, a ghost can be used a special effect for even Evocation/Channeling, if narrated properly.

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: devonapple on February 03, 2012, 06:49:03 PM

Quote from: devonapple on February 03, 2012, 06:26:16 PM

1) Allies are GM-created, and he assigns a Resources/Rituals difficulty which has to be met in order to secure them for a scene, and adding shifts to that roll secures the ally for longer. Rent-a-guard? Resources 3. Kincaid? Resources 12. Demonic assassin? Thaumaturgy Resources 35. They all *can* be secured using similar rules.

I think this bit requires further attention, because I feel that it's the option that the RAW tends to assume will get done.

My understanding is that, to use the RAW's freeform approach to Summoning/Crafting/etc., the onus is on the GM to:
1) listen to what the player wants to Summon or Create, but don't let the player actually design the thing: it's the GM's job to either take it from the books, or create it, as they would any other NPC
2) make a decision as to how hard it should be to Summon or Create that thing, based on potential plot impact, whether or not the thing wants to be summoned, has ulterior motives, etc.
3) tell the player how many shifts it should be for a given duration
4) if the player successfully performs the Ritual/Resources check/etc., then the summoned ally is there for the duration negotiated until Taken Out

I get the impression that some GMs don't feel confident with step 2 (I know I don't), and want a static way to evenly and fairly assign value to a given Summoned/Created NPC ally.

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: Mr. Death on February 03, 2012, 06:54:39 PM

What about summoning a weaker version?

Like, say the GM comes up with a Ghost whose normal difficulty to summon is 6 shifts, but the summoner can't quite cut it for whatever reason. Might the GM have him summon the same ghost, but missing some powers/skills/strength for a 4 shift spell instead?

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: devonapple on February 03, 2012, 07:19:17 PM

Quote from: Mr. Death on February 03, 2012, 06:54:39 PM

What about summoning a weaker version?

Like, say the GM comes up with a Ghost whose normal difficulty to summon is 6 shifts, but the summoner can't quite cut it for whatever reason. Might the GM have him summon the same ghost, but missing some powers/skills/strength for a 4 shift spell instead?

Oh, yeah, they can negotiate that. Maybe it's a different ghost; maybe the desired ghost got wounded in a previous battle or lost those memories. It's negotiable.

To use a similar situation as an example (it's not directly ectomancy, but I feel the tenets apply across the board):

Player: I want to recruit someone like Kincaid.
GM: That'll be a Resources 14 roll and take two days.
Player: What can I get for 6 shifts in an hour?
GM: You can get (thinks a bit) Zach Ryan, clued-in former police detective drummed out of the force for his crazy reports about fairies and werewolves, who now hires himself out as supernatural-savvy bodyguard.
Player: Zach it is.

Some of these allies or summoned creatures won't even exist until the player asks, so some negotiation is bound to happen.

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 03, 2012, 11:30:24 PM

I suggest you look here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30835.0.html) and here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1084269.html#msg1084269).

That's two sets of summoning rules for you. Hope that you find them useful. Neither of them will help with the manifestation part, though.

There's a third set around the boards somewhere but my search-fu has failed me.

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: grimward on February 04, 2012, 05:25:53 AM

Wow. Thanks!  :)

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 04, 2012, 07:09:13 PM

Summoning a ghost and making it do something is a no-no.  That's lawbreaking stuff (the stuff that the Wardens warned Mort not to do).

Opening the way for ghost to do what the ghost WANTS to do, that's different.

That's what Harry did in one of the books - allowed the ghosts to manifest so they could complete the task that held them there.  Now if they had stuck around to tell their spouses "I love you" one last time then Harry wouldn't have gained much by doing that, but since they were sticking around to avenge themselves on their murderers they went after Harry's enemies for the win.  Notice how a certain Duke (who was visiting and hadn't killed many people in Chicago) escaped that situation with his life - that's because there weren't a lot of ghosts gunning for him.  It would have made things simpler for Harry if all the Red Court witnesses had died that night (no one to point the finger or tell their side of the story) but would have been Harry commanding the ghosts and he couldn't afford to pick up the Lawbreaker stunt just then.

Spoilers for Ghost Story:

(click to show/hide)

Sir Stu is a special case.  He is a slightly more self aware ghost and his 'thing to do before passing on' is to protect and safeguard his family.  That means when it comes to protecting Mort, Sir Stu can do more than the average ghost can without someone needing to command him to do it.

When it comes to manifesting to defend someone, not even Sir Stu could manifest to defend Mort from that hitman.  A ghost has to be nuts before it can manifest - so for the PC to get his ghostly bodyguards he would have to cast a rite to make them manifest - like the one that Harry did.

So how did Harry do that bit at the end of book 3? I'm thinking Thaumaturgy - and explaining Harry's ability to it with no prep as Harry spending his remaining FATE chips to tag aspects, using Lore to make declarations about the ghosts (giving him free Aspects to tag), and possibly taking a consequence or two.  Then casting a zone wide "All Ghost Can Manifest And Do Whatever They Want" rite.

Richard

Title: Re: Summoning Ghosts?
Post by: Mr. Death on February 04, 2012, 07:14:40 PM

Yeah, YS299 lists it as a Thaumaturgical spell, "Memorium, Memoratum, Memoritus," and is actually only a 5-shift spell, 3 for the maneuver, 2 to make it zone wide. As the description notes: "The ghosts were there already, so Harry didn’t need to summon them—just nudge them over the edge."