ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: grimward on January 31, 2012, 04:07:12 PM

Title: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: grimward on January 31, 2012, 04:07:12 PM

Hey everyone. Not sure if this has been done already or not (probably has), and I apologize if I end up asking a bunch of questions I could find answers to on the board already.

Ok. My idea is to have a character that uses both magic and faith based powers. We're sitting at 9 refresh in the game, so this gives me just enough for the Wizard template (replacing Thaumaturgy with Ritual:Demonology), plus something like Righteousness.

The general idea behind the character is that he was a magically talented teen who had no idea what was going on or how to use his power and got into some serious trouble with a weaker demon. I haven't really pinned down exactly what that trouble was, maybe he made a bad deal with it, maybe he was possessed, whatever, it was bad bongos. A clued in priest (akin to Father Forthill) was made aware of his problem and helped him overcome the demon. From there the character would have joined the church and become a fully ordained priest.

The parts that get kinda wonky are whether or not the Catholic church would actually help, take in, and train a wizard (or whatever they'd call him). And if they did, would they train him both spiritually and magically? I could see there being small pockets of people who are in the know in the church (again, like Father Forthill and his little band), but would any of them be knowledgeable enough to actually train a wizard? If there are, are they still small and pseudo-underground, or are they more along the lines of a secretive branch of the church? I realize all these questions are things I should hash out with the GM, but I was wondering what some of you people thought.

Now, mechanics wise, I was thinking of making one of his evocation elements Holy. My idea was to use it for things like Blessing other PCs and NPCs, uttering sacred words to stun or injure, and maybe do things like call down pillars of holy fire or turn vampires into piles of salt. The rub is that I don't know if all those things would fall under an element like "Holy", or if it would cause confusion since the spells would be of the Holy element in the wizard's eye, but not necessarily Holy in the game mechanics sense. The other two elements he'd be using would be Fire and Spirit. I can see a lot of places for overlap, but that doesn't really concern me since they all feel like they fit thematically.

Basically, I'm wondering what all of you think about the idea, how it's being executed, and if there are any horrible flaws that I haven't seen. Thanks for taking the time to read this whole thing, got a little long winded there.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: wyvern on January 31, 2012, 04:39:07 PM

Hm.  Mechanics-wise, I'd list the uses you gave as being just fire and/or spirit - except for blessings, which are beyond the normal reach of evocation - you'd need a sponsored magic for that, to get access to "thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation".  I'd add the third element as Water, then - which gives you access to stuff like parting the seas (well, ok, maybe not on that scale, but...)

As far as holy magic - we've got Soulfire from the books, but I could see a smaller-scale form of holy sponsored magic - consider, for an example, a ley line sourced from some holy site.  That could even be a one-refresh addition, if its power is tied to the location - you could still get some use of it elsewhere via power stored in enchanted items (potion slots are your friend!), and it'd give you a strong home-ground advantage.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: grimward on January 31, 2012, 08:08:28 PM

My idea with the blessings was to use them as maneuvers. Character blesses person or location, thing gets a fragile aspect of "Blessed" or "Big Man's got my Back" or whatever fits that last until it's tagged or a scene passes. I'm not super certain on the rules for maneuvers having never used them, so if I could be totally wrong.

I never even thought of a ley line or blessed area or anything. That's actually a really neat idea!

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Vargo Teras on January 31, 2012, 08:55:46 PM

I think Soulfire is the way to go when creating a Faithful caster.  It's versatile enough that you'll never find yourself straightjacketed by it, and can substitute for some of the Faith powers like Blessed Touch, that you won't be able to afford.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: wyvern on January 31, 2012, 08:59:20 PM

Soulfire is good, but at 9 refresh he can't afford soulfire + wizard template.  Plus we really don't know what soulfire on its own can do - in the books it's always described as "mystical rebar" or "making you more of what you are", so it's not even clear that it makes sense to have soulfire as a standalone power.

Which is why I suggested something more limited to start with.  He can upgrade to soulfire later.

As for blessings-as-manuevers: This is somewhat debatable.  I'd suggest talking to your GM; if they say you're good to go with just a "holy" element in evocation, then go for it - but don't be surprised if they're wary of the notion.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 31, 2012, 11:08:55 PM

I don't know exactly how I would go about this..."holy" as an element might be too strong with the vast number of creatures out there that have Holy as a catch.

Then again, if the element is limited in some way it might not be a problem.

Backstory sounds plausible. A Church wizard is hardly impossible.

Sponsored Magic would seem appropriate here, though Soulfire will probably need a clearer definition if you actually intend to use it. Making up a new flavour of Sponsored Magic might be better.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: UmbraLux on January 31, 2012, 11:20:33 PM

Just use the standard evocation maneuver rules and call them "Blessings".  Instead of giving someone the "Speed of a Cat" you'll give them "Blessed Speed", "Strength of Ten" might become "Strengthened by God", etc.  As long as you're targeting and flavoring the 'blessings' I don't see an issue.  On the other hand, I would object to repeated (or even one) uses of a generic "Blessed" maneuver.  It's boring. 

@ the OP:
Regarding combining faith and magic, it has possibilities.  I see three possible approaches:  1) They're separate, he just happens to have secular magic as well as power given by a greater Power.  2) He was taught by a small group of the Church authorized to use magic.  Perhaps the Hospitallers (a former military order), a sub-sect of the Jesuits (the major push behind the inquisition), or some other authorized group.  3) He was taught by an unauthorized sect within the Church.  In this case, the church as a whole may see what he does as heretical.  All depends on what, if any, restrictions he wants to put on his character's choices. 

As for the elements, I'd suggest naming them after sacred concepts if you go with authorized magic.  Blood instead of Water, Flesh instead of Earth, Purification in place of Fire, etc.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Becq on February 01, 2012, 02:38:20 AM

I think that there's a lot of potential for the character concept; I think you'll have fun with it.  I think, though, that the Catholic Church as an institution would tend to take a dim view of a "Sorceror Priest", however.  That said, I think there's a lot of story potential in being a member of a secretive order that did not go in with the "Suffer not a witch to live" thang, believing that such power could be a tool for good every bit as much as a tool for evil, when handled prayerfully.  You could even write up the order as secretly under the direct authority of the Pope.  Which means that you character, your order, and the Pope are ok with it, but you need to hide it from the Church as a whole ... or else.

Mechanically, I would recomend either using Soulfire or a modification thereof instead of (not in addition to) Evocation and Thaumaturgy (at least at first).  This gives you a solid excuse for doing Holy damage (which normal Evocation probably should not be able to do, since its source is the individual's Will, not the divine) and leaves you with enough refresh to get more of the various Holy powers.

Basically, take either the True Believer or Champion of God template, and add Soulfire, which would come to -6 to -9 refresh depending on the specific options (ie, you can make it fit into your 9 refresh game).

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Vargo Teras on February 01, 2012, 04:25:16 AM

Quote from: wyvern on January 31, 2012, 08:59:20 PM

Soulfire is good, but at 9 refresh he can't afford soulfire + wizard template.  Plus we really don't know what soulfire on its own can do - in the books it's always described as "mystical rebar" or "making you more of what you are", so it's not even clear that it makes sense to have soulfire as a standalone power.

Kemmlerian necromancy is the only power listed as not a standalone; it seems evident to me that Soulfire can be used by itself, and is the power wielded by angels and angelic beings, just as plenty of demons and infernal cultists should be using Hellfire with no other magic.  As Becq says, using Soulfire alone means it fits neatly into the desired level of Refresh, and means you're using holy magic, not just using magic and happening to be pious.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: wyvern on February 01, 2012, 05:01:59 AM

Yes, yes, YS doesn't list it as requiring other powers.  Sure, it's rules-legal, but there are lots of rules-legal things that don't necessarily make sense.
Thematically, I don't think soulfire makes sense as a standalone power.  The same goes for hellfire, actually, though I'd expect low-level cultist-y types would normally pair that up with mere channeling or ritual.

Plus, in a rulebook full of vague and occasionally hand-wave-y things, soulfire tops the list.  What can it do on its own?  Fire-like evocations, and whatever the GM lets you get away with, apparently.  If I were to allow it in a game I was running, the first thing I'd want to do is nail down a bit better what you can do with soulfire in my setting.  As such, I find it difficult to suggest any player use it - since what they get out of it is going to depend almost entirely on what their GM thinks it can do.  In one game, it might have very narrow uses and be mostly useless outside of direct attack spells.  In another game with a more permissive GM, it might offer essentially the full benefits of evocation + thaumaturgy.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Todjaeger on February 01, 2012, 05:03:38 AM

Quote from: Becq on February 01, 2012, 02:38:20 AM

I think that there's a lot of potential for the character concept; I think you'll have fun with it.  I think, though, that the Catholic Church as an institution would tend to take a dim view of a "Sorceror Priest", however.  That said, I think there's a lot of story potential in being a member of a secretive order that did not go in with the "Suffer not a witch to live" thang, believing that such power could be a tool for good every bit as much as a tool for evil, when handled prayerfully.  You could even write up the order as secretly under the direct authority of the Pope.  Which means that you character, your order, and the Pope are ok with it, but you need to hide it from the Church as a whole ... or else.

I will start this with a question.  The character is going to be an ordained Roman Catholic Priest or perhaps seminary student, correct?

If that's the case, I would suggest reading the short story The Warrior.

(click to show/hide)

In it, Father Forthill reveals that he is a member of a secretive sect within the Catholic Church, the Ordo Malleus.  The order has been in existence since the founding of the Church were it was tasked with performing exorcisms on the possessed.  It then expanded its area of responsibilities to include combating other supernatural threats like vampires, evil fae, etc.  It is suggested that the Ordo Malleus was actually behind the Inquisition, but that some members lost sight of the objective which is why so many people ended up dying.  Since the Inquisition, the Ordo Malleus has apparently operated very quietly to support the Knights of the Cross and combat the enemies of mankind, and there is the suggestion that the Pope is aware of the existence of the Ordo Malleus and has some form of oversight in its activities.  Some members of the Ordo Malleus also have contact with the Venatori Umbrorum.

For some other character ideas, the movie the Order might be worth watching.

In terms of modeling the character for the DFRPG, this question comes immediately to mind.  Is the character mainly a Wizard whose jobs is that of a priest, or is the character mostly a Priest who can cast spells?  That is important to know since Wizards have one set of powers requirements, while True Believers or Champions of God have another set.

If the current character emphasis is going to be a Wizard whose job is a priest, then having a greater emphasis on Evocation and Thaumaturgy would make sense (Thaumaturgy more so than Evocation in my opinion...) and that the flavor of the character's spells should reflect the character's faith-based approach to magic.  In one of the books, Harry commented on how some members of the White Council are devout followers of one religion or another and that the magic of those members reflects their faith.  Incidentally, it was also mentioned that the headquarters of the White Council at one point was located in the Vatican...  Summer Knight comes to mind as the novel, but I could be mistaken.

Now if the character's emphasis is on that of a Priest, taking the True Believer template powers of Bless This House and Guide My Hand and adding one or more Spellcasting powers like Ritual: Diabolism, Thaumaturgy, Channeling: Spirit, etc. could make sense, and again the spells would have a flavor reflecting the character's faith.

Something which could be an important consideration as well, if the character is going to be a full Wizard, is whether or not the character is aware of, and/or a member of the White Council?

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Mr. Death on February 01, 2012, 08:35:42 PM

I actually had a similar idea, of a wizard pastor. He's mostly wizard, with the Guide My Hand power and a Refinement bringing him up to -9 refresh. Mostly I worked it through his aspects, and the themes of his evocation and thaumaturgic focus: Spirit (used mainly for defense, with his main rote being a 7 shift block using a cross necklace); Fire (the whole wrath of god thing, plus the whole purification by fire thing), and Water (again, purification, used mainly for counterspells), and Wards (should be obvious).

I don't think there's any particular problem with the Catholic church helping/training a wizard--after all, Harry seems to have no problems at all working with Father Forthill and the Knights. The White Council would probably become involved at some point as a matter of course, since they tend to take jurisdiction over wizards of whatever stripe.

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: grimward on February 02, 2012, 04:08:56 AM

Wow, thanks for all the responses and ideas everyone.

After reading through everything and getting a better concept of the character, I'm leaning towards Sponsored Magic. Soulfire feels too... epic to just have. I feel like if the character is going to have it, he should get it somehow through the course of his story.

Need to talk with the GM and hash out exactly what the Sponsored magic will be able to do and whatnot. Maybe something like paying a fate point, or gaining a point of debt, to make an evocation have the Holy aspect, able to satisfy the catch for some toughness powers. Throw in a few Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation blessings using the maneuver rules in the Thaumaturgy section. Plus all the standard sponsored magic benefits and rules. Seems like there could be some fun times with that.

I'm really digging on this

(click to show/hide)

Ordo Malleus

thing. I need to bust out Side Jobs and read that story about Forthill. My GM and I touched on something like this when the character concept was brought up, but never went too deep into it. Looks like I'll be fleshing this out a lot more. Gonna dig around and see what's out there about the order in the Dresdenverse, then fill in details as needed.

The character is a Priest first and a Wizard second. He wouldn't ever think of himself as a wizard. He views his talents as gifts from God, to be used in His service. He'd be much more antagonistic toward demonic or "evil" creatures, going after them before they have a chance to do more harm. One of his aspects is "Walk in the Light, or I will drag you into It"  He'd probably have no idea what or who the White Council is. Unless they've contacted him (not sure how good they are at picking up on magic talents, though I'm betting they've gotten pretty awesome at it), he'd have nothing to do with them. Should they contact him sometime later on during a sessions, well, that bridge will be crossed when it's come upon.

Thanks again for all the replies everyone  :D

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Todjaeger on February 02, 2012, 05:54:12 AM

Quote from: grimward on February 02, 2012, 04:08:56 AM

After reading through everything and getting a better concept of the character, I'm leaning towards Sponsored Magic. Soulfire feels too... epic to just have. I feel like if the character is going to have it, he should get it somehow through the course of his story.

Need to talk with the GM and hash out exactly what the Sponsored magic will be able to do and whatnot. Maybe something like paying a fate point, or gaining a point of debt, to make an evocation have the Holy aspect, able to satisfy the catch for some toughness powers. Throw in a few Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation blessings using the maneuver rules in the Thaumaturgy section. Plus all the standard sponsored magic benefits and rules. Seems like there could be some fun times with that.

I'm really digging on this

(click to show/hide)

Ordo Malleus

thing. I need to bust out Side Jobs and read that story about Forthill. My GM and I touched on something like this when the character concept was brought up, but never went too deep into it. Looks like I'll be flushing this out a lot more. Gonna dig around and see what's out there about the order in the Dresdenverse, then fill in details as needed.

The character is a Priest first and a Wizard second. He wouldn't ever think of himself as a wizard. He views his talents as gifts from God, to be used in His service. He'd be much more antagonistic toward demonic or "evil" creatures, going after them before they have a chance to do more harm. One of his aspects is "Walk in the Light, or I will drag you into It"  He'd probably have no idea what or who the White Council is. Unless they've contacted him (not sure how good they are at picking up on magic talents, though I'm betting they've gotten pretty awesome at it), he'd have nothing to do with them. Should they contact him sometime later on during a sessions, well, that bridge will be crossed when it's come upon.

Just a suggestion, you might want to go back and edit in spoiler tags (the symbol which looks like a radiation warning sign) around some of the stuff I mentioned.  So far the only reference I've come across has been in the short story The Warrior.  As for how good the White Council is at picking up on magical talent...  I've gotten the impression from reading Changes that the White Council doesn't do a great job.  Apparently given the rapid population growth on the planet, more and more talented people are being born and coming into their powers.  It's not so much that the White Council isn't gaining new members, it's just that people with the power and potential to qualify as a member of the White Council can get missed unless they go Warlock, in which case the Wardens show up (eventually) to give a 'haircut'.

Hope this helps.

-Cheers

Title: Re: Priest Wizard Character Idea
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 02, 2012, 07:07:53 PM

If you're planning to play a Priest, you might want to give a lot of thought into "downtime" stuff.  Will you be a parish priest, an assistant priest, a chaplain, or what? A secular priest or a member of an order?

In short, playing a priest is a bit like playing a military officer.  Your PC will part of an hierarchical organisation and as a result will have duties to perform.  If your High Concept is "Priestly Wizard" I can see compels like "You can't do make it to the fight on Tuesday - you're doing premarital counseling at 3, going over the parish books at 5, and leading the men's group bible reading at 7".

You could take an aspect (or work something into your high concept) like "Temporarily" Reassigned to reflect your superiors being in the know and wanting you free to deal with supernatural stuff.  Something like would that leaves you open to requests (or instructions) to "deal with a small problem at blah parish" - which can be a good way to launch plots.  Then again, a priest without priestly duties will raise eyebrows in some circles.

And if you're a full wizard, then you really should define how you combine being a priest and being a member of the White Council.

Just something to think about - and of course if your group sees things differently then however you work things will be how your group defines the PC's role.

Richard