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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Flipside on December 27, 2011, 04:31:53 PM

Title: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Flipside on December 27, 2011, 04:31:53 PM
Hi,

I am new here and maybe I am missing something, but...

I propose to provide an option of improving a roll by taking consequence on mundane actions. Say someone rolled a +2 (Fair) Might for a +4 (Great) door. No Fate Points! No Time! No way out! Except... I am going all in! BAM! Another +2! My Shoulder will Smart, for a while, but that Hexenwolf will not eat me today. Tomorrow, there's a new day and maybe that shoulder will stop hurting.

For Social Consequence, I will propose "Making a Scene" - you will be embarrassed, but so is your target. You hope...

For Mental consequence, you can  "Bond with the Prisoner", giving him an option to get back at you later. Also, you can "Tell him something real and true" that can hurt you for a long time, later.

Hell, let's go for a WWE-Style sacrifice throw! A maneuver that ends with you enemy AND you on the floor!

I think it will provide more tactical and dramatic options players and fun ways to hurt them, for the GM. It fits with the spirit of the game, so that's good.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 27, 2011, 05:49:37 PM
See here! (http://www.faterpg.com/2011/consequences-as-positive-currency/)  :)  Fred put up a thoughtful article on using consequences proactively.  Long story short, it can add an interesting dimension to the game.

By the way, welcome to the forums!
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Flipside on December 28, 2011, 07:54:50 AM
Thanks for the warm welcome.

I knew someone would have thought of that bright idea :)

The articles mentions bad stuff up to Severe consequences. What's only left to add is "Sawed his foot off to escape" Extreme Consequence from a minor horror movie, if you are feeling particularly cruel.

Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on December 28, 2011, 08:53:27 AM
I read the article and I really like this idea.  The only problem that I see is with Recovery powers - you would need some rule that prevents someone from using Inhuman or Supernatural Recovery to get a nearly-unlimited supply of free boosts to their rolls by taking consequences and healing from them right away.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: TheBiggs on December 28, 2011, 05:24:53 PM
Using Inhuman or Supernatural Recovery to get a nearly-unlimited supply of free boosts to their rolls by taking consequences and healing from them right away.
It's kind of what already happens with any magic users with Recovery powers. Not saying it isn't a problem, of course.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: benign on December 28, 2011, 06:26:29 PM
There already is a rule that armor granted by stunts/powers does not protect you from self-inflicted stress. Seems a simple step to expand that to recovery powers do not function against self-inflicted consequences.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Flipside on December 29, 2011, 07:10:52 AM
Or... You could allow it!

Recovery powers are not unlimited. You can only take so many consequences before it starts piling on your track. Plus, it works narratively  - "Why yes, I can block the sword with my hand, look at it heal BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES!"

Maybe you can treat it as an aspect - tag once per scene, pay Fate points later?
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: sinker on December 29, 2011, 07:20:11 AM
Yeah, I'm not sure that adding this to recovery powers bothers me. Sure it makes recovery powers a bit more powerful, but when you take a lot of the spellcasting into account it's more like leveling the playing field.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 29, 2011, 07:23:38 AM
Disagree. Recovery is already powerful, this would take it a step too far in my eyes.

Spellcasting is also powerful, but not excessively so as long as you don't interpret the rules loosely.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Flipside on December 29, 2011, 09:41:16 AM
@Sanctaphrax - how would you propose to limit it, then, without removing this option outright?
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Katarn on December 29, 2011, 04:13:40 PM
@Sanctaphrax - how would you propose to limit it, then, without removing this option outright?

I'm not Sanctaphrax, but I'll try to answer.

I'd personally favor not being able to heal self-inflicted consequences, unless they weren't of free will (read: mind control).  However, if you were set on being able to heal it, a couple options:
*You can use your recovery abilities once per session or scenario in this manner rather than once per scene- I'd personally favor 1/scenario so self-inflicted consequences have more weight to them than the usual ones inflicted in combat- especially since there's a conscious choice involved, a big thing in DFRPG. (reminder, the breakdown is scene-session (gaming night)- scenario (story arc, usually including boss fight)- campaign (overarcing story, megaboss at the end).
*You can spend a fate point to activate this ability, provided you have a relevant aspect to invoke (ex:  PAIN IS IRRELEVANT aspect could handle physical/mental, and NO SHAME could handle social.)
*For self-inflicted consequences, the amount of damage you take is doubled (doesn't make a ton of sense mechanically, but it plays to the DFRPG's concept of choice and levels the playing field).

Some of these are more unbalanced than others, just a few thoughts.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Aminar on December 29, 2011, 05:21:14 PM
Here's what I'd do.


Harming yourself is a harrowing mental process as well.  Every time a player uses this option the inflict one mental stress upon them-self(I'm debating whether I should leave a fate point as an option too.)  This mental stress clears as if a minor mental consequence.

This affects everybody equally, but hurts recovery characters and mages the most.  I hear tell they were a little unbalanced anyway.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: sinker on December 29, 2011, 06:59:28 PM
Ok, now that I really think about it I like it at inhuman, but it gets a little powerful at any higher level. I guess what you could do is simply give someone half of the effect. So mild gets you +1, moderate gets you +2, and severe gets you +3, but I don't really like that either because it makes it impractical without high level recovery powers...

More thought is necessary.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 29, 2011, 07:09:40 PM
Just have anything self inflicted automatically meet the catch.  That keeps it reasonable.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: wyvern on December 29, 2011, 07:15:43 PM
Just have anything self inflicted automatically meet the catch.  That keeps it reasonable.

This.  Especially for magic, if it's not an actual sacrifice, it shouldn't provide a benefit.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 29, 2011, 11:06:38 PM
What UmbraLux said.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: polkaneverdies on December 29, 2011, 11:41:20 PM
Umbralux nailed it.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: sinker on December 30, 2011, 06:46:15 AM
Just have anything self inflicted automatically meet the catch.  That keeps it reasonable.

One of the issues I could see with this is that technically this isn't self inflicted harm. This is a mechanical choice that the player makes, but the character will often take this damage from outside sources. Consider if I'm in a gunfight and I fail to break a block of cover fire on my attack. I take the consequence "Grazed" to make my roll. Technically the character was wounded by hostile gunfire, not by himself.

It's really a thematic issue though, I think the mechanics work ok.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Flipside on December 30, 2011, 07:29:27 AM
Ok thanks all!
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 30, 2011, 07:46:37 AM
There is a fairly simple solution to that oddness. Just take a mild consequence that would normally be a moderate or worse consequence. Like BULLET-RIDDLED. That way, the comparatively long healing time will make more sense.

PS: If a guy rips his own throat out for fun, it shouldn't satisfy the catch. Perhaps "self-inflicted harm" should be amended somehow to reflect the fact that it's actually the player doing the damage. Whatever, you get the point.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: devonapple on January 03, 2012, 10:13:29 PM
One of the issues I could see with this is that technically this isn't self inflicted harm. This is a mechanical choice that the player makes, but the character will often take this damage from outside sources. Consider if I'm in a gunfight and I fail to break a block of cover fire on my attack. I take the consequence "Grazed" to make my roll. Technically the character was wounded by hostile gunfire, not by himself.

It's really a thematic issue though, I think the mechanics work ok.

A character with Recovery or Toughness Powers may, in actuality, not be subject to certain types of Blocks owing to their powers. A Guns-based Block on a character with Full Immunity, for instance, just doesn't make any sense. There may be a sidebar comment addressing this, but I can't remember where it would be. Probably under the mundane Block rules.

Edit: I failed to find it in the Block rules.

But the main issue with self-inflicted Consequences seemed (to me) to be in the fields of Evocation and Thaumaturgy. If it's a normal gunfight, I'm not that bothered by a Recovery monster letting itself get chewed up to make a few rolls. In magic, though, using your Recovery-blessed teammates as mana sources seems more problematic.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 03, 2012, 10:19:38 PM
Page 211, in brackets immediately before the section on grapples.
Title: Re: Taking consequence for mundane actions.
Post by: devonapple on January 03, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
Ah, yes: "Keep in mind that there are some blocks that just won’t work in some situations. (Trying the “keep them pinned down with gunfire” trick on a loup-garou isn’t going to really help you much, given that they’re immune to bullets.)"

Thank you!