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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Katarn on December 01, 2011, 07:59:50 PM
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Ok, so the RPG mentions that magical effects can be drawn from different elements- like lightning could be conjured with the right rationalization by most of the elements.
But where do you draw the line? IRL I have a player who's playing a pyromancer. He's made arguments for things like energy redirection (heat transfer), healing (warmth), and numerous other attempts at extended magic, with varying amounts of reasonableness. Where would you, as the GM, draw the line for things a focused practitioner can and cannot do?
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Hm... healing with fire magic... I'd let that fly with a "Sure, you can do that, as long as you don't mind phoenix deciding to call in a favor or two later..." (See: temporary access, YS289.)
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Important point: Is he using Channeling or Ritual?
Channeling can ONLY do the 4 basic types of Evocation - Attack, Block, Maneuver, and Counterspell. Additionally, it's limited by the ideas of line of sight, and that it's usually expressed as big movements of energy, not subtle changes.
Ritual, on the other hand, can literally do ANYTHING you can justify. However, you as the GM are definitely allowed to say, "Sorry, you haven't justified that enough" or "That doesn't fit your theme closely enough". Feel free to use compels and declarations (costing a fate point) as a way to control access to more extreme or strange applications.
Sponsored magic can, of course, be even more flexible than either of the above, but usually has it's own theme you have to work with.
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More usefully, my default answer when someone stretches the flavor-wise bounds of their power is "yes, but..." and then add some complication. For healing, another option would be "yes, but you'll need to make a scholarship roll to know what you're doing - and if you fail that, then you're going to harm the target instead of helping them."
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More usefully, my default answer when someone stretches the flavor-wise bounds of their power is "yes, but..."
"Yes, you can use fire magic to heal, but... You're limited to curing hypothermia, soothing aching muscles, cauterizing wounds and wart removal."
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We didn't get to hear his justification for healing, but warming seems a bit out there. I imagine he wanted to be a pyromancer so he can throw fireballs. Seems like a downside of his decision. If it's just warming like you said I could see it. But bruses, cuts and broken bones. Beyond that healing has been shown to be extremity difficult and requiring special focus. Enough that Harry didn't even want to try it out because he was afraid he may screw it up. I can definitely see heat redirection. There's a good example of that in White Knight where fire magic is used to freeze water.
I like the phoenix idea though. The player is overstepping their focus a bit but it's still something that vaguely fits thematically. Tack in some greater spirit that they have had contact with or know how to invoke and can build up some kind of debut with. Sounds like a great solution to me, giving the player what they want with a good explanation while adding story hooks and complications.
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Elements are thematic, not systemic... so in theory, you can do everything with anything... that said, in Dresden, theme and story trumps system any time, every time.
So, if the theme fits easily, let it happen easily.
If it doesn't fit easily, let it happen, but make them work for it, or pay for it... with collaboration and negotiation. It sounds like you're already doing that... you just need advice on creative ways to make those boundaries work well (ie, keep the player from running roughshod all over you), and add to the game (keep it fun for everyone).
Fire is a force of purification and destruction equally. It has literal ties to heat, and energy...
For healing- I agree with everything above- but add detoxing as an obvious use... and the similarity to summer fae power as another complication.
Let his arguments for why he should be able to do something provide the complications where you can. Making his own penalties isn't just poetic, it also makes for a quick and easy compromise.
For example: Energy redirection's plausible, but with complications (you can move energy around, but always end up with waste heat energy... remember, magic doesn't ignore the laws of physics, just... works with them more directly)... a fire-based spell could easily turn a TK blast into a bunch of (mostly) harmless but also useless heat... but not into much else... and depending on the environment, all that extra heat could be bad... especially if you have to keep blocking TK that way and it builds up.
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I think he crosses the line when he says healing, as its always been bloody difficult in Dresdenfiles to heal anyone, hence how most healers have doctorates and medical degrees (from some point in history). When fire would work, then that's ok like the others said; hypothermia, wart removal, etc.
But attempted healing would do far more harm than good in a majority of the situations I can think of.
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When fire would work, then that's ok like the others said; hypothermia, wart removal, etc.
But attempted healing would do far more harm than good in a majority of the situations I can think of.
Symbolically, fire is the element of purification.
Literally, fire is the best element to represent the immune response of a fever.
It might not do much for a concussion or a broken pelvis, but it seems to me that it'd do wonders for infections if applied by a competent practitioner.
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The issue here is that Hermetic/medieval/elemental principles of association are being used, and while association is a component of spellcasting which one should not disregard entirely, there are complexities to it which are being seriously handwaved when someone says "fire is associated with purification."
Certainly, to one who has trained to associate the two, the thematic linkup can be a powerful associative force, especially in Thaumaturgy.
However, the mistake in the DFRPG is to take that association and use it to justify bypassing genre mechanisms and precedents set up which establish as part of the Dresden Files fiction that doing X is just not easy to do with magic, where X can be healing, mind control, and any number of other things which we are used to doing in systems like D&D.
The effect people want can be termed "black box magic." We don't know why it works, but it does, if you are level Y, studied for an hour or two the night before, have components A, B and C, wave your hands and stand in one place for a set amount of time, *this* happens.
What has been set up in the fiction, however, is that the "black box" element has been discarded, and magical effects require more stringent justification, in terms of mass and energy, conservation of matter, etc. Some of this is elided in-game (were-ravens are a serious compromise of the conservation of matter), and certainly magic isn't fun to play with if everything becomes a logistical problem. We're encouraged to pain in broad strokes,
But the fundamental issue is that Evocation - on its own - is just way too crude to do a lot of these things, no matter what the Hermetic elemental system says. And even Thaumaturgy - stripped of a guiding influence - is somewhat limited by human understanding.
Where a lot of these things get sewn back together is Sponsored Magic: letting a barely comprehensible intelligence do the heavy lifting, when it serves their agenda, and fits in their baileywick.
So, heat associated with healing? Summer Faerie magic. Heat used to soothe tired muscles? Probably thaumaturgy, MAY-be Evocation, with a lot of skill and some medical/biological knowledge.
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Oh- granted, evo is right out. Too blunt anyway, for healing. I imagine even using Spirit(TK) to set a bone is even rife with risk. I just want to stress the thematic element being the big issue.
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But where do you draw the line? IRL I have a player who's playing a pyromancer. He's made arguments for things like energy redirection (heat transfer), healing (warmth), and numerous other attempts at extended magic, with varying amounts of reasonableness. Where would you, as the GM, draw the line for things a focused practitioner can and cannot do?
I draw fairly wide lines however, elements are aspects. So within the broad lines I'll compel against some border cases. If they really want it, they can pay a fate point. ;)
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Oh- granted, evo is right out. Too blunt anyway, for healing. I imagine even using Spirit(TK) to set a bone is even rife with risk. I just want to stress the thematic element being the big issue.
To give an example, Ritual (thematic specialty: 'fire') should be well capable of performing some limited number of tasks that would be described as 'healing' ranging from the obvious cauterizing of wounds to the delicate balance of 'burning' an infection out of a patient without frying their brain.
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This is the type of thing where I would require any caster character to dedicate one of his aspects to his use of magic. So if this aspect would be "KABOOM-mancer", he could remove an ailment from one of his companions... along with the companion and a a few feet of the ground in each direction. An aspect like "Adept of the purifying Flame" would give you more subtle and complex adaptations, but your kaboom magic would suffer.
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For most of the books, Harry can't pull of a decent veil to save his own ass. That still doesn't mean that spirit evocations are incapable of creating veils, which is a question more comparable to the content of this debate.
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On the top of YS255, it reads: "Subtlety with fire is rare, but those who can combine the two take advantage of its purifying properties."
I would combine this with the lower sidebar on YS179 to say "Yes, it's possible for some pyromancers who specialize in the more subtle side of Fire to do some of the things you suggest. However, to reflect this specialization, you will need to take an aspect that reflects your subtle nature (much like Molly did) and keep in mind that that same subtlety will hamper your efforts to perform non-subtle Fire effects".
As for things like 'heat transfer', I would assume that Fire has a strong tendency toward extremes unless specialized as above. So you could yank the heat out of water, leaving behind ice (Dresden did this), but the most likely way to comfortably warm up a friend would be to use Fire to light a ... well, a fire.
Hm. I think I basically agree with Haru.
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For most of the books, Harry can't pull of a decent veil to save his own ass. That still doesn't mean that spirit evocations are incapable of creating veils, which is a question more comparable to the content of this debate.
He also doesn't use air to move things around, even though that's one of it's strong suits. That's not how his training has air working for him, not how he conceptualizes it. He uses spirit. Further, where veils are something that Harry is just not good at, he has specifically that healing is extremely difficult and delicate. Even Elaine, who is quite a bit better at delicate magic than Harry, can only heal minor injuries and that's with a ritual/thamaturgy application, not evocation.
Devonapple, I really like the black box description.
With the Aspect discussion, where do you draw the line though between someone not being able to generate an effect though and simply something that you're a lot better at because you have an Aspect that you can Invoke? I can definitely see the benefits of requiring an Aspect, and having one would definitely help solve a debate on it. On the other hand it also seems like something that with a character with thought about heritage for your spellcasting framework would really not need an Aspect.
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He also doesn't use air to move things around, even though that's one of it's strong suits. That's not how his training has air working for him, not how he conceptualizes it. He uses spirit.
I believe that's what Ventas Servitas is. It's an air spell that moves things around...
Anyway nitpicks aside we've been looking at the thematic side of this. Why don't we look at the mechanical?
Mechanically the only reason why an element matters is in thaumaturgy, evocation maneuvers, and evocation blocks. An attack is an attack is an attack. All attacks deal physical stress and there's really no difference how it's done (Ok, for catches it does matter, but that's an edge case).
Thaumaturgy and evocation maneuvers are actually mechanically set up for this kind of twisting the elements. Since the GM determines the complexity/shift requirement for each of these things you can actually increase the difficulty if you feel that they are doing something that's a little out of their baliwick. Using fire to make ice? Double the shift requirement (or increase it as you feel is best).
Blocks are the one thing where you really need to allow the thematics to guide the mechanics. This is the part where you just have to use your common sense and decide what works and what doesn't. A wall of fire to prevent attacks? Might work on melee, but obviously people can shoot through it. Bleeding energy off as heat? Will work against most ranged attacks, but in melee (where the energy is sustained) it's not going to be effective.
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I believe that's what Ventas Servitas is, an air spell that moves things around...
Yeah, Ventas Servitas is just bad Latin for "wind, enslaved" or "wind that is my servant".
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My group had a conversation about this topic a while back, it came to our attention that Focused Practitioners are darn near as powerful as full blown Evokers and Wizards. This is due to them being able to do most everything with just a single element, save a few very specific exceptions. Of course that's before you factor in the refinements and such.
After a while arguing about it, we came to this conclusion: Focused practitioners limits are set exactly were it stops being interesting in the narration or fun to allow them to 'go there'.
So, would I let a pyromancer "heal" his friend with his Ritual ability? Sure would, as long as the narrative is evocative and interesting. Then, depending on the description of that healing it might have some lingering effects :)
Would I let a Geomancer fling fireballs? No. That's just silly. Plus it doesn't uphold his general theme, and it's no fun for anyone (except maybe the geomancer) when we break verisimilitude for something like that. Then again, if he can give me a really good explanation, like pulling natural gas up (after making a declaration) and then using his magic to "rub" the earth around the gas vent hoping for a spark... but that's not really flinging fireballs so...
On a side note, I think most magical elements could have the right justification for starting particular types of minor consequences into recovery, something I hadn't thought about till this thread.
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Wow. great feedback everyone, didn't expect so much input :)
@EdgeofDreams- we hadn't specified yet if he was using Channeling/Ritual (this game JUST started), but I'll be sure to draw on Channeling's restrictions. He isn't sponsored (presently).
@Wyvern- good idea, this is especially relevant since he's self-taught more or less. (see Malraza about the phoenix)
@Pbartender- perhaps, depends on how he rationalizes it.
@Malraza- I figure he'll use healing in the generic sense, not complicated. I'll put some inherent limitation (such as Scholarship/Lore rolls) to make it more plausible.
Also, I know this guy will want to be very.... creative and liberal with his powers, so a phoenix is a good idea for a sponsor. I may add that at a milestone.
@ARedThorn- Yea, he's quite verbose, I'll have to use the cost/limitations/ loss of energy to extreme cases.
@RevengeOfTim & Tedronai- yea, I'm leaning towards easing of pain and only healing involving heat normally. We know healing is obscure, to the point that wizards usually specialize or are known for their abilities.
@devonapple- absolutely. Ritual will be the way to go. Also, he does a good job with justifications (he's not one to black box.)
@UmbraLux- fate points could be used, depending if he has a good aspect for it.
@Haru- haven't decided how precise I'm gonna make aspect-usage. I might rely on rolls to see how precise of magic he can do.
@Becq- Again, I'll probably see if he has subtlety as an aspect. I hadn't thought about the extreme concept, I'll keep it in mind.
@sinker- Good point on defense. Context is all-crucial (and justification).
@PolaroidNinja- I want the game to be fun, so if he can make legitimate jumps I'll probably let him do it (with unforeseen consequences).
Thanks, again, all of posting. Feel free to keep debating/contributing/being awesome.
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@UmbraLux- fate points could be used, depending if he has a good aspect for it.
Not sure I was clear enough...my point is the elements themselves are aspects. If he's a Fire channeler / ritualist, the "It's Fire" aspect can be compelled or invoked when appropriate. Any other aspects he may have are extraneous.
Taking the healing edge case as an example, if he's trying to heal a wound I might offer a fate point and say "It's fire, you find that extremely difficult..." If he doesn't pay a fate point he can't heal wounds using fire magic.
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"healing" is pretty vague, can you give more info on what he was trying to do, & how he was trying to justify it?
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Magic is the power of life and creation. It has no limitations whatsoever. The only limitations exist in the understanding, control and power of the wielder.
Now, as to healing with fire, I see at least four ways it can be done via ritual;
1) As most chemists will tell you, chemical -and by extension biological- reactions increase pace geometrically with the increase of temperature and thus offered energy. So you render his body magically invulnerable to any actual damage by fire, while you simultaneously increase his temperature by, say, sixty degrees. That results in a speed-up of his biological functions of about 30x without him being fried into a crisp (since the magic prevents that damage). A day's of healing and recovery in under an hour. A month's of healing and recovery within a day. You're just providing the energy required and making the organism capable of actually working at those extreme speeds without burning out.
2) Selectively destroy diseases, viruses and damaged cells while regulating the victim's temperature for maximum recovery speed and shocking the nerves into feeling no pain / relaxing the muscles and sealing wounds by freezing the blood flow (and only the blood flow) out of them while keeping the surrounding area warm. This is more natural but actually more complicated than #1 in terms of how fine control and how much medical knowledge it requires.
3) Summon a Summer Fae. They're creatures of fire so you can do it. Then bind it into healing the guy for you.
4) As per #3, except you bind other types of fire-related entities, such as a spirit of fire and cleansing.
5) Worldwalk the guy into a fire-related part of the Nevernever where the natural conditions promote healing, or pull in part of those conditions into the physical world. Several places in Summer should have natural conditions that promote life, regrowth and renewal.
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Not sure I was clear enough...my point is the elements themselves are aspects. If he's a Fire channeler / ritualist, the "It's Fire" aspect can be compelled or invoked when appropriate. Any other aspects he may have are extraneous.
Taking the healing edge case as an example, if he's trying to heal a wound I might offer a fate point and say "It's fire, you find that extremely difficult..." If he doesn't pay a fate point he can't heal wounds using fire magic.
Fair enough- I'll definitely being using Fate Points depending on what he's trying to do.
"healing" is pretty vague, can you give more info on what he was trying to do, & how he was trying to justify it?
This was more of a general discussion, so we didn't get into specifics. Obviously I'm not going to let him heal broken bones with it, more likely just use it as heat therapy is normally used in medicine, unless he pays relevant FP and can justify it.
Magic is the power of life and creation. It has no limitations whatsoever. The only limitations exist in the understanding, control and power of the wielder.
Now, as to healing with fire, I see at least four ways it can be done via ritual;
1) As most chemists will tell you, chemical -and by extension biological- reactions increase pace geometrically with the increase of temperature and thus offered energy. So you render his body magically invulnerable to any actual damage by fire, while you simultaneously increase his temperature by, say, sixty degrees. That results in a speed-up of his biological functions of about 30x without him being fried into a crisp (since the magic prevents that damage). A day's of healing and recovery in under an hour. A month's of healing and recovery within a day. You're just providing the energy required and making the organism capable of actually working at those extreme speeds without burning out.
2) Selectively destroy diseases, viruses and damaged cells while regulating the victim's temperature for maximum recovery speed and shocking the nerves into feeling no pain / relaxing the muscles and sealing wounds by freezing the blood flow (and only the blood flow) out of them while keeping the surrounding area warm. This is more natural but actually more complicated than #1 in terms of how fine control and how much medical knowledge it requires.
3) Summon a Summer Fae. They're creatures of fire so you can do it. Then bind it into healing the guy for you.
4) As per #3, except you bind other types of fire-related entities, such as a spirit of fire and cleansing.
5) Worldwalk the guy into a fire-related part of the Nevernever where the natural conditions promote healing, or pull in part of those conditions into the physical world. Several places in Summer should have natural conditions that promote life, regrowth and renewal.
*Universal magic- true, which is why it takes great rationalization. His character is supposedly convinced all magic comes from fire, but he still needs to rationalize it well- he's still a focused practitioner.
1)That is a good example of a rationalization. He would have to roll Scholarship to understand the biological mechanisms involved, and it would be a challenging ritual to perform obviously not a combat scenario).
2)Same as 1), but the rolls would be astronomically high (hopefully offset by a medical aspect, fine control aspect, scholarship rolls out the wazoo).
3)Fae with deals are fun ;D , though he's already killed a Seelie Fae.
4)People earlier suggested a phoenix as well, which is nice because of the direct fire/healing metaphor.
5)I like this one, because of fun plot development. Especially since the Seelie probably don't like him now....
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*Universal magic- true, which is why it takes great rationalization. His character is supposedly convinced all magic comes from fire, but he still needs to rationalize it well- he's still a focused practitioner.
If this is true then from a thematic standpoint he already has all the rationalization he needs. If all magic comes from fire (which he believes, making it true for his magic) then he is capable of performing all magic. A person's view of how magic works actually shapes the way their magic works (which is why you can have thematically different element sets).
Now from a mechanical standpoint this is completely ridiculous because it has no limitations whatsoever, while still only costing 2 refresh.
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If this is true then from a thematic standpoint he already has all the rationalization he needs. If all magic comes from fire (which he believes, making it true for his magic) then he is capable of performing all magic. A person's view of how magic works actually shapes the way their magic works (which is why you can have thematically different element sets).
Now from a mechanical standpoint this is completely ridiculous because it has no limitations whatsoever, while still only costing 2 refresh.
I guess you could go that route. Take a Pyromancy related aspect, but take Full Evocation anyway (or Sponsored Magic: Hellfire, perhaps with a refluff).
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This is actually pretty close to what my dark sorceress is doing. She's using outsider magic as a source and she's using Void, the unmaking of creation, for her flavor of magic. She has some very real limitations that have come up often in the game but she can do amazingly complex and varied things with enough willpower and imagination. (sort of how a Green Lantern can only really create constructs but can use that ability to pretty much do anything?) Of course, there's the small inconvenience of the White Council and their punishment for black magic being decapitation. :P
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Yeah, I going to talk to him about the "Pyromancy is all" concept to see how well he can justify it (in the words of Bill O'Reilly: Water? You can't explain that.)
Basically, if he sticks to the concept it's going to be a lot of explanations of the actual fire mechanics, Scholarship, and Lore rolls. Also, a lot of this will be restricted to Ritual versus Channeling.
As for a Sponsored Magic, maybe- but his character is fairly independent so I don't think he'll go that route initially.
I like the Void concept- I think it works better than "monopyromancy" because it's not described as a particular element, whereas fire as specific connotations and denotations.
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1) As most chemists will tell you, chemical -and by extension biological- reactions increase pace geometrically with the increase of temperature and thus offered energy. So you render his body magically invulnerable to any actual damage by fire, while you simultaneously increase his temperature by, say, sixty degrees. That results in a speed-up of his biological functions of about 30x without him being fried into a crisp (since the magic prevents that damage). A day's of healing and recovery in under an hour. A month's of healing and recovery within a day. You're just providing the energy required and making the organism capable of actually working at those extreme speeds without burning out.
2) Selectively destroy diseases, viruses and damaged cells while regulating the victim's temperature for maximum recovery speed and shocking the nerves into feeling no pain / relaxing the muscles and sealing wounds by freezing the blood flow (and only the blood flow) out of them while keeping the surrounding area warm. This is more natural but actually more complicated than #1 in terms of how fine control and how much medical knowledge it requires.
3) Summon a Summer Fae. They're creatures of fire so you can do it. Then bind it into healing the guy for you.
4) As per #3, except you bind other types of fire-related entities, such as a spirit of fire and cleansing.
5) Worldwalk the guy into a fire-related part of the Nevernever where the natural conditions promote healing, or pull in part of those conditions into the physical world. Several places in Summer should have natural conditions that promote life, regrowth and renewal.
I'd allow any or all of these- as long as the player (note- the player, not the character) chose to pursue it ANYWAY in spite of being warned of potential consequences.
1) in mild cases, at least, you've aged the person as well, and/or possibly aggravated any pre-existing conditions. That much of an accelerated metabolism would have problems in the dietary way while we're at it. Worst case scenario/extreme cases (I wouldn't personally break this one out), some Warden might mistake it for fiddling with Time, and you'll have to explain yourself very quickly. In which case, he'll mistake it for fiddling with someone else's body.
2) as complex as the body is, and as much as Dresden stresses the difficulty in holding a perfect image of that body, it'd be easily possible to cause some permanent nerve damage or cause a harmful lasting medical condition. This... this I'd work out with the target in the next room over, rather than with the caster (most likely I'd make it minor and recoverable, but work with the target to play it up a bit).
3/4) uh... yeah.
5) whole plots possible from that one.
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I'd allow any or all of these- as long as the player (note- the player, not the character) chose to pursue it ANYWAY in spite of being warned of potential consequences.
1) in mild cases, at least, you've aged the person as well, and/or possibly aggravated any pre-existing conditions. That much of an accelerated metabolism would have problems in the dietary way while we're at it. Worst case scenario/extreme cases (I wouldn't personally break this one out), some Warden might mistake it for fiddling with Time, and you'll have to explain yourself very quickly. In which case, he'll mistake it for fiddling with someone else's body.
2) as complex as the body is, and as much as Dresden stresses the difficulty in holding a perfect image of that body, it'd be easily possible to cause some permanent nerve damage or cause a harmful lasting medical condition. This... this I'd work out with the target in the next room over, rather than with the caster (most likely I'd make it minor and recoverable, but work with the target to play it up a bit).
3/4) uh... yeah.
5) whole plots possible from that one.
1) Great point, I hadn't considered the body aging/time aspect, but I think I'd only bring if up if he used it heavily.
2) Yea, I lean towards only someone with a relevant medical degree being able to be proficient in casting this. So you're saying if <pryomancer> heals <teammate>, discuss with <teammate> what the consequences of that are?
3/4) ;D
5) Seeing as the plot already has the Seelie in it, it should work pretty well....
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<teammate> is the one who has to deal with the consequences, so yeah. I'd talk it over with them, to make sure it's nothing that they (as a player) aren't willing to live with. I'm not about to ruin the game for <teammate> over it. Like I said- I'd err towards something that appears more significant than it really is (a fever that lasts too long, or chest pains that turn out to be minor, but still freak <pyro> out after <teammate> goes to the ER for them)... play it up for drama and the "You shouldn't really be doing this very often- it's too risky to use outside of emergencies" kind of mood.
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<teammate> is the one who has to deal with the consequences, so yeah. I'd talk it over with them, to make sure it's nothing that they (as a player) aren't willing to live with. I'm not about to ruin the game for <teammate> over it. Like I said- I'd err towards something that appears more significant than it really is (a fever that lasts too long, or chest pains that turn out to be minor, but still freak <pyro> out after <teammate> goes to the ER for them)... play it up for drama and the "You shouldn't really be doing this very often- it's too risky to use outside of emergencies" kind of mood.
Absolutely. I never want to screw over another player because of another player's actions (unless the affected player wants to/ is OK with it). It happened to us a lot in D&D (ie OP mage), and got frustrating really fast.
But I'll stress consequences- it's what the books are all about. Harry makes choices, and he lives with their consequences.
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As far as healing with fire magic goes, Fire Cupping could work for reducing stress by a small amount or even consequence if done as a long term type of thing. Might be limited to use with a focus item like an etched glass cup or something.