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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on November 15, 2011, 03:39:12 PM
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In my game one of the players saved up aspects (resource and contact maneuvers mainly about research and saving related aspects) and fate points for about 20 sessions so they could have insanely high rolls for when they hired a body guard (52 Contacts + 56 Resources). Now given he has put a great deal of effort into this I was wondering what rewards would be appropriate and how to stat the bodyguard. Do people think adding the rolls together (or averaging them out) and treating it like a big summoning ritual (2 complexity per point of refresh +1 per point of skill + x for stress and consequences [before powers]) would work.
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Wow.
I actually am at a loss at how to reflect what kind of body guard you could hire with that.
I wouldn't make them jump through any mechanical hurdles though. It sounds like they already did enough of that already. The question is just is what kind of person you would hire. That would be way more than Kincaid IMHO. Like, maybe Odin personally follows you around as your body guard or something.
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Um, you realize that resources is exponential in the amount of money it gives, so 56 resources is 10^56 dollars (1 followed by 56 zeros or 100 Septendecillion dollars). To give you an idea of how large that number is, a typical star has only ten times more hydrogen atoms than they have dollars. In other words your player has the resources of several solar systems at the very least. So yah, they might just be able to hire a super powered bodyguard. :o
Edit: Before anyone asks, inflation is not included in this because Resources is based on the value of what can be bought and not specific amounts of money that can be spent (this is a small but subtle difference that makes it inflation proof).
Edit2: To give another example of how high this is, the estimated total economic production of the entire human race to date is slightly less than 2,397 trillion. Which if you divide that amount by the amount your player has, it is so small that it is effectively zero (1/[2.39695 × 10^41]).
A visual comparison:
2,396,950,000,000,000
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
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Well, first consider how long they're hiring this bodyguard for. Subtract off the appropriate number of shifts for the time chart.
Then, assuming you're still left with way too many shifts, consider further splitting the total up so that, instead of a single guard, they have a whole team of them. That's kinda necessary anyway - since a single bodyguard, no matter how good, won't be able to stop a sniper. Plus, armored vehicles, concealed body armor, the whole works. Look at how real-world VIPs are protected - I'm talking people like the pope, or the US president, or the like. This sounds like a great time to invent a supernaturally-aware mercenary company...
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Well, first consider how long they're hiring this bodyguard for. Subtract off the appropriate number of shifts for the time chart.
Then, assuming you're still left with way too many shifts, consider further splitting the total up so that, instead of a single guard, they have a whole team of them. That's kinda necessary anyway - since a single bodyguard, no matter how good, won't be able to stop a sniper. Plus, armored vehicles, concealed body armor, the whole works. Look at how real-world VIPs are protected - I'm talking people like the pope, or the US president, or the like. This sounds like a great time to invent a supernaturally-aware mercenary company...
Thanks that makes sense and is probably less game breaking.
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Sounds like someone is after a premium/platinum-service contract with Monoc Securities lasting...centuries?
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Yeah - start with an elite individual, then extend that bodyguard through additional team members, support available, and length of contract.
Kiero's Monoc Securities example is excellent IMO.
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+1 to Monoc Securities or similar. I doubt that there's any single entity in the world that
a) is worth that kind of pay
and
b) cares about money
and
c) is willing to work for a puny mortal.
So it's gotta be an army.
Bear in mind that money can buy sacrifices to gods, which can give you divine favour. A bit of "luck" might be included in Monoc Securities' deluxe package.
Alternate option: a few small d dragons.
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In my game one of the players saved up aspects (resource and contact maneuvers mainly about research and saving related aspects) and fate points for about 20 sessions so they could have insanely high rolls for when they hired a body guard (52 Contacts + 56 Resources). Now given he has put a great deal of effort into this I was wondering what rewards would be appropriate and how to stat the bodyguard. Do people think adding the rolls together (or averaging them out) and treating it like a big summoning ritual (2 complexity per point of refresh +1 per point of skill + x for stress and consequences [before powers]) would work.
I'd take the lower number (since you can't hire someone you can't find) then start subtracting for time as others have mentioned. Somewhere around 12 shifts should get a lifetime's worth of guarding and you still have ~40 to split among the bodyguard team, though you may also want to subtract for items like armored vehicles, private planes, and security systems.
At some point in this process I'd ask the player if they're ready to retire the character as a successful NPC* and build a new PC. After all, he probably has 24/7 supernatural security, a limo, and a secure home. What's left?
*Seriously. But then I don't want to run a small army or have a single character out shine the rest of the table. If you don't mind the first and can work the second out, it may not be an issue for you.
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I'd take the lower number (since you can't hire someone you can't find) then start subtracting for time as others have mentioned. Somewhere around 12 shifts should get a lifetime's worth of guarding and you still have ~40 to split among the bodyguard team, though you may also want to subtract for items like armored vehicles, private planes, and security systems.
At some point in this process I'd ask the player if they're ready to retire the character as a successful NPC* and build a new PC. After all, he probably has 24/7 supernatural security, a limo, and a secure home. What's left?
*Seriously. But then I don't want to run a small army or have a single character out shine the rest of the table. If you don't mind the first and can work the second out, it may not be an issue for you.
Indeed. It sounds like time for the character to retire and run a SWAT team of hired mercs (like Charlie's Angels meets Dresden). I'd rather play the swat team of mercs anyway.
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To begin with, I think that allowing maneuver aspects to stack up indefinitely is probably not a great idea. Maneuvers are supposed to be "momentary, situational advantages", and it's hard to see how a duration of 20 sessions fits into "momentary". So you need to either backtrack and 'correct' this, or go with your decisions up to now. It sounds to me as though you are fine with the way its going so far and would like to proceed from there. Fair enough!
First of all, a quick sanity check. If you decide to scale the 'hireling' based on the heavily modified roll (52 contacts, 56 resources), then the expectation is that the result will be POWERFUL. So think about how this will impact the game -- will the story benefit from the players being able to phone up, say Thor (or perhaps a small nation, if a less supernatural result is pursued) for fire support when necessary?
I think I'd be inclined to turn the whole situation into a storyline. Perhaps something along these lines:
The characters do their thing, spread around money, work contacts, etc. They get some responses, and they discard many of them. Eventually, however, they get a solid bite. They are approached by someone with significant resources of varying types, and is willing to hire them to the players for the price that they are offering. And the benefits look solid. Possibly no 'demigod-like', but solid. He has an information network that extends well into the supernatural realms. He has bodyguards that can be assigned to the characters -- not every session, perhaps, but when truly needed -- and the bodyguards are clearly more than mere human. He knows people who can make things happen, or who can "smooth over" problems that the players have, whether its the mortal police ... or perhaps even the White Council, assuming the situation isn't too serious.
The group, of course, grabs the opportunity. And make use of it. And perhaps come to depend on it, as the 'problems' the begin to face become more powerful than they themselves can handle.
Of course, they say that anything that seems too good to be true is probably just that. And so is the case here. It turns out that their 'hireling' is actually a demon (or insert chosen ickiness here), and he is actually using the players to his own advantage. As a demon, he is limited in what influence he can bring to bear on his own behalf, but he's much freer to act when others do the asking. So when the players ask for help clearing things up when one of them is arrested, they simply see the problem go away. They don't see the demon sending in a Malvora minion to kidnap the DA's child, coercing the DA to drop the charges, and returning the child in a near-catatonic state due to the Malvora's feedings. And so on.
So as time goes on, the demon grows stronger. In essence, the players are feeding him Fate points that he can't earn on his own. He starts to be a little less circumspect about his actions, and perhaps the players start noticing things. Or perhaps they notice that their reputation is starting to tarnish a bit, and wonder why. In any case, the end result is that they realize that their 'hireling' is actually the villain in the story, and is even creating some of the problems that they hire him to solve.
From there, either engineer a suitably interesting climactic showdown, or turn the demon into a long-term Threat, and leave it to the players to determine how to clean up the mess that they have unwittingly created...
Your mileage may vary...
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Any sort of momentary action with contacts or resources I don't see people having to roll for but anything that could actually be bought that is above their they can just have it threshold (6 in this case because of two stunts). In my opinion anything worth above +6 resources will take time to acquire the same goes for researching with contacts, lore, putting out feelers etc. None of it is instantaneous so I rule that maneuvers with skills that can't be used on a moments notice take longer and last longer. The Setting up and off shore account to funnel money could well last for 20 sessions so could a takeover maneuver, so could research and getting in touch with the right people.
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Maneuvers are supposed to be "momentary, situational advantages", and it's hard to see how a duration of 20 sessions fits into "momentary".
While I agree with this, aspect stacking is an essential part of thaumaturgy. I'd just as soon extend the ability to non-spellcasters as well.
It's probably a bit more reasonable for the entire group to spend a scene making those declarations and maneuvers though...which has the added bonus of not sidelining or overpowering the rest of the group.
Oh, I like your evil plan Becq. :) Though I'd be wary of turning planning and foresight against the players too often...
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At what points are these Maneuvers actually becoming skill-based Declarations? Edit: yes, treating them like Thaumaturgy Lore Declarations makes sense, though that... might possibly devalue having Thaumaturgy. I don't know.
The character doesn't live in a vacuum: if he is interesting enough to feel the need for a bodyguard requiring this much preparation, he is probably under some observation by one or more enemies, as well as rival/opposing factions.
I liken this effort to the Big Bad Dark Ritual which players are often tapped to prevent. Can a canny opponent have been working to observe and perhaps try to counter any of these preparations?
Certainly, it doesn't always need to be the case: it isn't interesting if we find out Dresden had to oppose Ghouls and Grendelkin to get his snazzy three-ring summoning circle (which, depending on your POV, may just be small a handful of Aspects powered by Fate Points).
But for 20 sessions of prep, resulting in 50+ rolls in Contacts and Resources, it's beginning to look a lot like Master Plan.
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I'd suggest spending shifts on moving declarations and maneuvers up the time increment chart when appropriate. It would help explain some of the months long and decades long rituals.
I'd still want it to be a group activity rather than an individual's. Mostly for metagame reasons.
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@ways: Hey, your table, your rules. I'm just saying that my opinion is that if I go panhandling for a few hours, I might justify a Rapport maneuver to gain an aspect to allow me to buy a meal despite my Terrible Resources. But I disagree with the idea that if I panhandle for a straight month, I can boost my resources enough to buy a nice little island -- say Hawaii.
@Umbra: This is one of the things that make me uncomfortable with the 'vanilla' Thaum rules, too. In the books, Dresden talks about how some powerful Thaumauturgy is probably beyond even him -- he doesn't say that he couldn't do it unless he spent an extra 20 minutes drawing mystical symbols or focusing his chi or whatnot. But that's just my opinion.
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1. I don't think it's possible to maneuver outside of combat.
2. Given that the GM sets the difficulty for all non-opposed maneuvers and Declarations, it's very hard for anything as silly as panhandling to buy an island to happen.
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1. I don't think it's possible to maneuver outside of combat.
Why not?
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1. I don't think it's possible to maneuver outside of combat.
Yes you can, that's the whole point of preparatory actions when you've got the time.
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Maneuvering out of combat - options:
A) It's still a Maneuver - the time scale is just different.
B) It's actually a Declaration being called a Maneuver.
That's why in the Thaumaturgy rules, the Aspects you set up to meet the Complexity of a ritual are called Declarations (or sometimes Lore Declarations, even though they really use a wide variety of skills to create).
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What devonapple said.
There are no rules for maneuvers, as far as I recall, outside of the conflict rules. This leads me to believe that any attempt to create an aspect that doesn't use your action in a conflict isn't a maneuver.
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Mind you it is possible to see business as a conflict one that plays out over months rather than minutes but then I imagine all maneuvers would be opposed.
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Maybe using Resources for the stress tracks, Presence for defense rolls, and Contacts for attacks.
Other skills for maneuvers, of course.
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There are no rules for maneuvers, as far as I recall, outside of the conflict rules. This leads me to believe that any attempt to create an aspect that doesn't use your action in a conflict isn't a maneuver.
Not sure your second sentence makes sense...or possibly I'm simply not following.
As for maneuvers outside of conflict, that probably depends how broad your definition of "conflict" is. It's hard to imagine not being able to set a Building On Fire unless someone is shooting at you. As for the book, its section on Temporary Aspects simply says "...aspects are introduced to (or inflicted upon) a character or scene by the actions of a character in the game..." I find it difficult to imagine any scene the characters can interact with (as opposed to "cut-scenes") where they can't do something phrase-able as a maneuver.
All that said, the Playing the Game section on Maneuvers does concentrate solely on conflicts. How you interpret those sections is going to depend on your fundamental approach to rules.
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This is just a question of terminology.
I'd call setting a building on fire a Declaration if it happened outside of a conflict.
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This will either sound like I'm being stupid or rude, but honestly...I'm just curious.
Why does setting a building on fire have to be a declaration or a maneuver? Why can't I just make fire and burn said building?
(assuming of course we're ignoring legal and moral implications as well as assuming physics will allow such a thing...)
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It's interesting to see other people's definitions of words. For me, the difference between a declaration & a maneuver is one of PC agency. A maneuver is something your character does. A declaration is something that a player does, to establish some truth about the game world.
So, a maneuver of "The building is on fire", is your character committing arson.
A declaration would be a player saying something like "Hey, those cultists summoned a fire elemental, right? I'm going to make a lore declaration that they set the building on fire." Or perhaps, "Wait, we're fighting Harry? The building should probably be on fire by now..."
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This will either sound like I'm being stupid or rude, but honestly...I'm just curious.
Why does setting a building on fire have to be a declaration or a maneuver? Why can't I just make fire and burn said building?
(assuming of course we're ignoring legal and moral implications as well as assuming physics will allow such a thing...)
It doesn't, and frankly I wish that particular example would just die. It's been more detrimental to people's understanding of how FATE works than any other, and feeds into the whole "everything's an Aspect!" lunacy.
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It doesn't, and frankly I wish that particular example would just die. It's been more detrimental to people's understanding of how FATE works than any other, and feeds into the whole "everything's an Aspect!" lunacy.
I avoid the "On Fire" debate like... well, like it was on fire.
;D
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Sigh. It's an example from the book. Try to look past the specific aspect and look at the bigger picture.
It's a scenery aspect created by a character. Is there anything limiting it to conflict alone? What is different about non-conflict scenes which would prevent it?
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Nothing.
Nobody is saying that you can't light a building on fire outside of combat.
I'm just saying that it isn't called a maneuver when you do it.
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Sigh, still don't care about whether or not it's "fire".
There is nothing I'm aware of in the text preventing you from making scenery modifying maneuvers outside of conflict.
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Serious question:
What do you think I'm trying to tell you here?
Because I think there might be a misunderstanding.
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Ok since fire seems to be causing an issue, lets go the other way.
If I want to pour a bucket of water on the ground...for any reason, it could serve no purpose at all other than to enjoy the beauty of physics and water seeking the lowest point possible...why does it need to be called anything?
I mean I sort of understand to one extent that if it is used to help a roll it needs a name because the system sort of lives off of + 2 bonuses to rolls due to aspect/maneuver/etc.
However, why does the terminology matter?
Perhaps I'm just not thinking enough here or something but this whole thread drift away from hiring people seems to be pointless and I would like to understand better.
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It doesn't, and frankly I wish that particular example would just die. It's been more detrimental to people's understanding of how FATE works than any other, and feeds into the whole "everything's an Aspect!" lunacy.
From http://http//masterplanpodcast.net/index.php?post_id=255930 (http://http//masterplanpodcast.net/index.php?post_id=255930)
In Master Plan #15, Leonard Balsera (one of the authors of Spirit of the Century and guys behind FATE) talked about the Fate Fractal. The principle is that any element of a FATE game can be described in terms of the same components. The implication is that Aspects could be applied to everything, be it the Scenario itself, NPCs, locations, objects or even abstract things like the relationships between two NPCs.
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Honestly, the terminology isn't terribly important. It's just me being nitpicky.
Sorry if I derailed the thread.
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From http://http//masterplanpodcast.net/index.php?post_id=255930 (http://http//masterplanpodcast.net/index.php?post_id=255930)
Different elements of the game are well-suited to different tasks. When everything is an Aspect, everything is vague, bland and boring. Aspects work best when they have other, more concrete elements against which to be contrasts. On their own, dull.