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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: VVolf on November 08, 2011, 03:13:28 PM
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Here's an interesting quandary...
A character in our game made a resource roll to buy an Kevlar Plated trench coat, which as military gear would constitute Armor 2.
Since then this armor bonus has been applied to Punches, claws, and Ax-swings. My mind keeps going back to the argument between Micheal and Sonya that Micheal's armor wouldn't stop bullets but Sonya's Kevlar wouldn't stop blades or claws.
On one hand I don't want to punish the player who made the resource roll every time he's facing something that not what the armor was designed to protect against.
On the other hand, I don't want the players who spent refresh for toughness powers to get armor to feel like they spent that refresh for something they could have gotten without it.
I'm curious to see what y'all think of this problem.
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There's modern military combat armour that would protect against all of that. If a player buys that (or makes something equivalent) then it should be fine. The key is to have both Kevlar like stuff, and hard plates.
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The other key is to keep that kevlar plated trench coat in mind as an aspect. And, every now and then when it's appropriate, throw a compel at it. Maybe the police get suspicious. Maybe it's just too hot to wear comfortably. Maybe the room he just walked into is filled with giant kevlar-eating moths. Whatever.
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I can spend refresh on Claws and have Weapon:2, or I can go make a Resources roll or have a reasonable Guns or Weapons skill and have Weapon:2 just the same. Don't unnecessarily punish your player for not knowing minutiae of modern armors; if his desire is "Armor:2 trench coat", then assign an appropriate difficulty to get the job done with Resources and he can have Armor:2. Maybe if he just barely makes the roll, then maybe it's not proof against stabbing weapons or something. Or if he fails by 1, maybe he couldn't get the strike plates and so rifle calibers ignore it. Otherwise I don't see a reason other than GM pique to be messing with a reasonable request like this.
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Here's an interesting quandary...
A character in our game made a resource roll to buy an Kevlar Plated trench coat, which as military gear would constitute Armor 2.
Since then this armor bonus has been applied to Punches, claws, and Ax-swings. My mind keeps going back to the argument between Micheal and Sonya that Micheal's armor wouldn't stop bullets but Sonya's Kevlar wouldn't stop blades or claws.
On one hand I don't want to punish the player who made the resource roll every time he's facing something that not what the armor was designed to protect against.
On the other hand, I don't want the players who spent refresh for toughness powers to get armor to feel like they spent that refresh for something they could have gotten without it.
I'm curious to see what y'all think of this problem.
If it's causingproblems...
There are different ratings for body armor (lettered I think) based on the types of strikes they protect against. look into prison guard and riot gear armor I think Tell the player that x+y rated armor would be away higher resource roll & to pick one for going forward. the low velocity (compared to a bullet)of a knife/claw keeps the kevlar vest designed for bullets from working well & the protective pads are in different locations (i.e. stabbed in the side/kidney in melee is more common than being shot from that angle)
If it's not & your just worried
elemental attacks ignore it pretty well, that's not just magic too... fire hoses & moltov cocktails are totslly mundane sources.beanbag guns are another toss in something occasionally to mix things up.
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As may have been suggested before, these "vulnerabilities" could simply be the function of Assessments or Declarations revealing an Aspect which can get invoked, providing a +2 to an opponent's roll, rather than having to map out which armors function against which types of damage. Like Johnny Sniper using a Guns Maneuver to place the Aspect "Vulnerable Spot" or an evil cultist making a Scholarship Maneuver to place the Aspect "Armor Burns If It Gets Hot Enough" on an opposing rent-a-cop.
And if the players wants an armor with an additional Aspect to tag for defense, then that can increase the Resources roll can be a Craftsmanship Declaration made by an allied armorer. In this case, the player can then invoke the Aspect "My Armorer Thought Of EVERYTHING" to counter the Aspect created by the example Maneuvers.
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Noncombat physical stress ignores armour too. Environmental hazards and poisons and the like.
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I agree with Wyvern and Devonapple, but remember compels should be a source of drama. Don't compel him every time something with claws or a knife shows up, that's just irritating. If at an intense moment he struggles with some monstrous thing you want to slide a Fate point at him and smile as you say "Kevlar isn't really made for claws. You hear a ripping sound as a sharp pain hits your back." then that's great.
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Honestly, if I got a fate every single time I was attacked just to nullify my armor, I'd be more than happy to take it.
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Well, it'd probably be once per scene at most. Compels are always worse than what you could gain from an equivalent invoke. (For example, you can invoke to gain a +2 to a roll. A compel would make you not only fail the roll, but frequently suffer some additional penalty - such as setting the building you're in on fire with a missed evocation.)
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And as I said compels are there to create drama. If you do it all the time it's going to turn into "What are the thugs armed with? Ok, give me my fate point."
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A few facts about armor, and how I plan to handle it/them in my own game.
Okay, most body armor in the US is tested and rated by the National Institute of Justice, which is the R&D as well as Test & Eval arm of the Department of Justice. Below are some links to NIJ pages with more specific information about various types of armor. Higher levels of ballistic protection (Type V and higher) are apparently available but it military equipment with the levels of protection being classified.
Body armor ballistic resistance: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf)
Body armor stab resistance: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183652.pdf (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183652.pdf)
Body armor selection guide: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf)
Now, armor that is good at providing protection vs. pistol or even rifles rounds is frequently going to provide little or no protection against edged/pointed weapons like arrows, spears or blades. The will also provide a minimal amount of protection vs. blunt force trauma. All of the has to do with physics, the construction of the armor, and how the armor deals with the particular type of threat it was designed to protect against.
For instance, armor with steel plates to protect against stabs can provide some protection against gunfire. However, they can also cause greater injury to the wearer if they do get shot as well, since fragments from the steel plate (spall) can break off and become projectiles which strike the wearer.
Now for the way I plan on handling armor in my campaign...
I'm going to have the player tell me what armor they wish to purchase, or wish to make or have made for them. If they choose to purchase a standard bulletproof vest it would provide Armor: 2 vs. gunfire, but basically no protection against other types of attacks. I say this because a commercially available Type IIIA is rated to protect against .357SIG and .44 Magnum handgun rounds and costs under $500 new, which works out to a Resources roll of Average (+1) or higher to purchase it. Not exactly something difficult for a player to accomplish, or if they have Good (+3) or better Resources, or just Average (+1) and the stunt Lush Lifestyle, they don't even need to roll to make the Resources check. In short, if players plan ahead and want it, body armor is easy for them to get, therefore I wouldn't automatically make it all inclusive in terms of protection, since it really isn't.
If they wanted full on military grade body armor which is ~$3,000 or so, I'd then either require additional successes due to the restricted nature of the armor (LE/Mil-only) and/or successes in Contacts rolls to indicate success in finding someone willing to sell a restricted item, but the armor they end up with would provide a higher level of protection, and/or a more comprehensive protection.
-Cheers
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Todjaeger went more into depth already... but I'd like to point something out. "Kevlar Plated..." Is this exactly what he meant to purchase, and exactly what you gave him?
Cause... Kevlar is a fabric- highly structural, flexible, resistant, but fabric nonetheless. When people talk about kevlar vests, this is all they really are, plus some thin padding between layers of the kevlar... at least, most of the time. Good for (most) handguns, but there are ways to cut right through it. High power handguns, or anything heavier at all... plus there are a number of old espionage tricks like spraying your bullets with teflon (yes, the stuff they put on frying pans).
The plates you hear about are ballistic plates, made out of ceramic, and they're designed to absorb all the energy of nearly any round you put into them. They're heavy, expensive, and they break when struck or even mishandled- you don't exactly have to be gentle with them, but you're not supposed to drop them, or let the plates hit eachother... which is a problem in something like a trenchcoat.
That said- TJ's specialized armor system is a good idea... it provides exactly the kind of loopholes you're looking for, and while there aren't any rules specifically along those lines, Catches are a kind of precedent.
In my games, I treat armor almost identically to toughness type powers. Most have limits of some kind, and they have a sort of stress track- equal to their rating- but completely separate from the character's normal stress. When the armor's stress fills out, it's broken. It's one more thing to have to keep an eye on, but my group has more than it's share of simulationists who love them some realism.
Something a little simpler- any time the armor takes a hit from something it wasn't designed to handle, reduce it's rating by 1.
It's good for representing armor limits and breakage- something important the game, in this case, completely overlooked.
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It's good for representing armor limits and breakage- something important the game, in this case, completely overlooked.
Actually there were three things I neglected to mention.
Give the Weapon chart is somewhat abstract, I plan on having the Armor rank be similar, and also roughly correspond to the Weapon chart.
i.e. a Type IIIA or Type II vest is essentially good against handguns, so that would be Armor: 2
A Type IIA is good against smaller handguns up to a 9mm, so that would be Armor: 1
Secondly (and also influencing the Armor ranking I'll use) is that these vests only really provide torso and perhaps upper thigh protection, so if someone makes an Aimed Shot, then they could be targeting an unprotected area. Also I "rounded down" the level of armor protection due to the fact that such vests don't provide total body protection.
There are full body (and helmet) suits of tactical armor, but those are very high end armors which are typically restricted to some Army or Marine units, Special Forces, and perhaps some of the larger SWAT/ERU teams in some of the larger and higher risk law enforcement departments.
The third thing is that after a suit of armor has been used in a fight where the character has actually been hit (whether Stress was inflicted or not), I'm going to treat the armor as damaged and reduced the effectiveness by 1 step, i.e. a Type IIIA Armor: 2 vest becomes a Armor: 1 until the body armor is either repaired (Craftsmanship) or replaced (Resources), with Contacts potentially assisting either efforts.
-Cheers
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On the other hand, I don't want the players who spent refresh for toughness powers to get armor to feel like they spent that refresh for something they could have gotten without it.
One thing to keep in mind is that toughness powers are allways on, armor has to be worn. Getting attacked in your bathtub, good luck without powers...
Walking arround all the time in military grade equipment also invokes suspicion so he should walk arroudn in it all the time. Murphy or Sanya only wear armor when they know the wade into battle not when walking to get a newspaper.
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One thing to keep in mind is that toughness powers are allways on, armor has to be worn. Getting attacked in your bathtub, good luck without powers...
Walking arround all the time in military grade equipment also invokes suspicion so he should walk arroudn in it all the time. Murphy or Sanya only wear armor when they know the wade into battle not when walking to get a newspaper.
This bears repeating. Armour is inconvenient for a number of reasons, not least that you have to think ahead to make sure you have it on, and it's both bulky and not as comfortable as simple clothing. Compare that to people with Inhuman Toughness, who often have it on all the time at no discomfort. So there's hardly a "saving" there by having mundane armour.
That's without getting into all the problems both owning and wearing body armour can cause you in most civilised countries (where it's ownership is often strictly controlled).
Something else worth mentioning; kevlar is usually designed either to stop bullets or blades, not both. A stab jacket has a different composition to a bullet-resistant one. British police, for example, routinely wear stab vests to protect them from knives (and screwdrivers, etc), but they don't wear bullet-resistant ones.
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I keep it far simpler than worrying about when to apply it.
I keep armor statistics low in games I run, then simply apply it to everything - or everything but a few scenarios where armor won't help at all, regardless of type.
Why?
Simplicity.
Realism is great until it bogs down a game or overcomplicates my fun.
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Actually in the campaign I'm in (which is set in Connecticut, USA) assuming the players are smart and don't have their characters do stupid things, there wouldn't be much difficulty with them having & owning body armor.
Granted, some levels of protection are restricted to law enforcement or military personnel but for low levels of stab, ballistic or blunt force trauma protection, it is completely legal for an ordinary civilian to have. In CT what gets difficult is that such armor can only be purchased in person unless you are LE/Mil, or have it issued by your department (which used to happen to some ambulance crews).
Now some of the lower level protective vests Type IIA, Type II and even a few Type IIIA are specifically designed to be worn in public without being obvious as body armor. Some are compact enough to be worn under normal clothing, other vests are designed and built into things like
jackets: http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Clothing.shtml (http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Clothing.shtml)
and windbreakers: http://www.securityprousa.com/bujaleiiprwi.html (http://www.securityprousa.com/bujaleiiprwi.html)
Because of that, as long as whatever the character is wearing is weather & climate appropriate, they won't suffer too much grief about it. Even in the novels, Harry ended up commenting a number of times about how he would wear his duster in the summer due to the danger, and suffer the heat effects (hello Aspect...) as well as the occasional odd look from people.
What's important from my POV is that the table agree on how things will run and that they be treated that way in a logical and consistent manner.
Realism is great until it bogs down a game or overcomplicates my fun.
Quite true, though the realism can also add to the fun as well, and sometimes the lack of realism ends up detracting from the game. Case in point, when Sleepy Hollow was run, one of the players had a character that was a Red Court Infected with Inhuman Strength and Inhuman Speed. Now this was the campaign start, and the player wanted to have a sword which his character would carry around with him under his jacket like in the Highlander TV series... When it was pointed out to the player that there isn't a way to effectively conceal something as long as a sword on ones person and that the first cop who say the character was going to spot and search them to find out what that long rigid object they had was... The player's response was that if any NPC tried to take it away from his character would just slaughter them. In this case, the way the player ran their character ended up detracting from the game a little since aside from sociopaths, people don't state that if someone tries to do their job, they'll be killed.
-Cheers
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Our game is set in Britain (starting in earnest tomorrow!), there is no level of weapons or armour that is legal for a civilian to own. Even things like collapsible batons are only available to serving law enforcement.
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Our game is set in Britain (starting in earnest tomorrow!), there is no level of weapons or armour that is legal for a civilian to own. Even things like collapsible batons are only available to serving law enforcement.
Body armor for low level blunt force should still be available. It's what motorcyclists, especially those who race, wear when riding. Not much good against guns or blades, but could certainly help if being punched or clubbed by someone.
As for weapons, there are always sporting implements like golf clubs (stick with the irons, not wood or graphite) or bats. Granted bowling someone over with a bat isn't exactly cricket but it would be effective.
-Cheers
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Our game is set in Britain (starting in earnest tomorrow!), there is no level of weapons or armour that is legal for a civilian to own. Even things like collapsible batons are only available to serving law enforcement.
and this is what i think is running Dresden Files in Europe so interesting. Guns is a skill that comes with a LOT more baggage here.
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Body armor for low level blunt force should still be available. It's what motorcyclists, especially those who race, wear when riding. Not much good against guns or blades, but could certainly help if being punched or clubbed by someone.
As for weapons, there are always sporting implements like golf clubs (stick with the irons, not wood or graphite) or bats. Granted bowling someone over with a bat isn't exactly cricket but it would be effective.
-Cheers
I suppose if you don't mind being hot and uncomfortable all the time, biker leathers might be an option.
As for weapons, you can't carry any of those around "for self defense"; indeed "self defense" isn't recognised as a justification for carrying any weapon or item that could be used as a weapon. Now if you happen to have all your sporting equipment in the boot of the car, and look dressed to be engaging in that sport, you might get away with it.
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I suppose if you don't mind being hot and uncomfortable all the time, biker leathers might be an option.
As for weapons, you can't carry any of those around "for self defense"; indeed "self defense" isn't recognised as a justification for carrying any weapon or item that could be used as a weapon. Now if you happen to have all your sporting equipment in the boot of the car, and look dressed to be engaging in that sport, you might get away with it.
If you're willing to risk getting killed by some monster by fighting them (even if they jump you it's because you're behaving like a PC instead of staying as far away from trouble as possible), why aren't you willing to risk some cop spotting your weapon?
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I suppose if you don't mind being hot and uncomfortable all the time, biker leathers might be an option.
As for weapons, you can't carry any of those around "for self defense"; indeed "self defense" isn't recognised as a justification for carrying any weapon or item that could be used as a weapon. Now if you happen to have all your sporting equipment in the boot of the car, and look dressed to be engaging in that sport, you might get away with it.
Yeah, biker leathers might do armor 1 vs edged and blunt if they were padded.
In the US, walking around in a full suit of plate would get you marked as a complete nutter and likely hassled by the cops but you wouldn't spend jail time for it. Dunno about over in GB. Is extremely outdated armor as illegal as the modern stuff?
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If you're willing to risk getting killed by some monster by fighting them (even if they jump you it's because you're behaving like a PC instead of staying as far away from trouble as possible), why aren't you willing to risk some cop spotting your weapon?
Exactly.
Criminals do it every day in every country of the world. Not all of them get caught, obviously. Therefore, I argue that there is no baggage added. If a police opfficer spots you beating on anyone, supernatural or not...last I checked that is assault. Using a weapon is generally assumed to be attempted murder. Adding a gun charge really isn't causing much more damage to one's rap sheet (as far as punishments go). Hence the reason criminals still carry guns. In that line of work, it is safer than not having one.
Lets face it armor applies here too. In any case one can veil weapons/armor or glamour them.