So, I would like to pose the following sets of questions.One comment on FATE and DFRPG before getting into your specific questions - it's a narrative game and many mechanics are left open to some interpretation by individual groups.
1. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they're usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together." What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?This is left open to GM & group interpretation. My interpretation includes ghosts, demons without a summoned or possessed body, elemental spirits such as Bob (except when possessing a body), and pretty much anything with the Spirit Form power which also lacks some type of Human Form.
2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?Thresholds work as suppressing blocks against the supernatural (also see Q4). Essentially the GM is going to assign a number to the body of water based on its size and how quickly it flows. That becomes the 'threshold value' for said body of water. Ovbiously this is also very group and GM dependent. ;)
3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was. During my first session, my character was brought to a synagogue by the party and an allied rabbi. Inside, another player initiated social conflict with me, and I had to accept. I used one of my powers in defense, but then the player interrupted and said that I was in a threshold. I had asked the GM if I was invited into the threshold of the synagogue; the GM said I was.Generally, invitations which bypass thresholds need to be explicit. So a greeter standing at the church door shaking your hand and saying "Welcome" negates the threshold but just walking in an open door doesn't. One more item to discuss in detail with your group though.
Then, the player brought up that there was no such thing as an invitation to holy ground, and that it would take a personal invitation from the White God to lift the threshold. Therefore, I should take a significant penalty to the usage of my supernatural powers. The GM agreed.
I can understand the logic behind this, but is this the case within the rules? Page 187 of Your Story says, in reference to the Bless This House power, which bolsters the rating of a threshold, that "Multiple individuals who have this power can stack the effects, making a den of the faithful potentially very safe from supernatural incursion—unless someone’s so foolish as to invite a powerful supernatural creature in." From this, I understood that an supernatural creature being invited to a place of worship is free of any penalties from the threshold. Is this indeed not the case?
4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers? For example, Supernatural Speed would grant a creature a +2 bonus to an Athletics roll made to dodge. How would that be affected within a threshold? What about the extra physical stress boxes from a power like Supernatural Toughness?In general, thresholds work as both a zone barrier against crossing and a persistent suppression (block) against uninvited supernatural entities. So your supernatural Athletics roll would be reduced by the threshold value (you may be better off limiting yourself to human capability) and some or all of your Toughness would be suppressed (similar to a shapechanger - consequences taken don't go away, they're still there once you leave / change form).
5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so. I pointed to page 173 of Your Story, which says, in reference to Incite Emotion, "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions as well if you do this as a block (page 210) instead of as a maneuver." I also pointed to page 210 of Our World, which states, "Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action. If the block only affects one person, it can prevent several types of action—up to all of them—as context permits. You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll."To the best of my knowledge, RAW supports your single target block. Did the other players have some reason to believe otherwise?
The other two players still said I was wrong and could not use Incite Emotion to block that way. So, I just used my Incite Emotion power for a maneuver instead. What was I about to do wrong by using Incite Emotion to block all actions but defense rolls?
1.What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?
2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?Then he isn't crossing running water but crossing a bridge. Basically, running water acts like a threshold. A sprinkler system can down grade the spells cast by most mortal wizards. There are some guidelines about how this works in play but it's up to the table to decide.
3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was.
4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers?
5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness.
1. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they're usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together." What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?
2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?
3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was....
4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers? For example, Supernatural Speed would grant a creature a +2 bonus to an Athletics roll made to dodge. How would that be affected within a threshold? What about the extra physical stress boxes from a power like Supernatural Toughness?
5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so....
5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so. I pointed to page 173 of Your Story, which says, in reference to Incite Emotion, "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions as well if you do this as a block (page 210) instead of as a maneuver." I also pointed to page 210 of Our World, which states, "Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action. If the block only affects one person, it can prevent several types of action—up to all of them—as context permits. You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll."
The other two players still said I was wrong and could not use Incite Emotion to block that way. So, I just used my Incite Emotion power for a maneuver instead. What was I about to do wrong by using Incite Emotion to block all actions but defense rolls?
Mmmm thread necro 8)
Spell cast within is cast as a Fuego! 4 shift flame spell. The spell loses 4 shifts of efficiency. Does this mean it has no weapon value or the spell is entirely absorbed by the threshold regardless of accuracy/control rolls?
If an ogre forces past a threshold and punches someone does it deal less damage due to the threshold makingh im leave his powers at the door?
The Wardens have been dispatched to your home. ;)
With a spell effect I think I would actually cancel the spell if it was reduced below it's shift value. You can't hurt someone with the accuracy of your fireball if the fire disperses before it gets to them.
My initial thought was that the ogre is never going to be worse than he would be without the power, but then I went and reread the section. It totally says that once a damage bonus is reduced beyond zero it acts as a penalty to the roll, so I would definitely drop his total shifts by the threshold.
My initial thought was that the ogre is never going to be worse than he would be without the power, but then I went and reread the section. It totally says that once a damage bonus is reduced beyond zero it acts as a penalty to the roll, so I would definitely drop his total shifts by the threshold.
With a spell effect I think I would actually cancel the spell if it was reduced below it's shift value. You can't hurt someone with the accuracy of your fireball if the fire disperses before it gets to them.
In the case of attack abilities, this most often manifests as a reduction of the damage bonus provided, acting as a penalty to the actual attack roll only after the damage bonus has been reduced to zero.is referring specifically to magical attack abilities, such as (for example) Breath Weapon. When you try to use such a power to attack with in a way that a mundane human couldn't, then you first reduce the damage bonus to zero, then start penalizing the attack roll. My take is that the idea here is that even at weapon:0, Breath Weapon gives you a capability that a mundane human doesn't have, so further reductions occur until the power is worthless. Of course, the character with the now useless Breath Weapon could still punch someone normally. As a second example, consider Claws. Once the damage bonus is dropped to zero, then you might as well be attacking using old-fashioned fists rather than the power. I guess it sums up as "if you attack without using a magical ability, the threshold doesn't apply". So in the case of Inhuman Strength, you don't get Inhumanly Weak, you just get Humanly normal.
So do thresholds effect toughness powers also or speed?
So size and toughness, probably no? Cloak of shadows - yes?
So it acts as all four of the mentioned effects at once? That seems really cool.
So it acts as all four of the mentioned effects at once? That seems really cool.Yes, as sinker says, they're "badass". ;)
Nah, Bless This House still sucks.
Look at Michael Carpenter. He has Bless This House. He also has a character concept heavily values family, and that concept is reflected in his Aspects.
He gets +2 to his Threshold from Bless This House. He also gets +2 to his Threshold from having good family values.
Unfortunately, the (free) family values bonus is actually better than the bonus that Michael spent Refresh on. It has fewer restrictions and it can potentially give more than +2.
I think your improvement is RAW as it is, UmbraLux. The title and description of the feat do seem to differ from the mechanics listed under effects, but I would argue that the defined mechanics (which say that all that is needed is your presence in a place that has a threshold) trumps both the decription (more or less flavor text) and title (entirely flavor text).I agree, I just think it gets overlooked on occasion. :)
I assume monsters do not get thresholds...but snce wizards do...do Whampires?
I guess my next question is what creatures qualify for having a threshold? red court infected ..yes? Changeling - yes? Fae - no...?
Alpha style werewolves? yes? I hope...
I assume monsters do not get thresholds...but snce wizards do...do Whampires?
I guess my next question is what creatures qualify for having a threshold? red court infected ..yes? Changeling - yes? Fae - no...?
Alpha style werewolves? yes? I hope...
So does Charity. (have Bless This House) They both have a conviction higher than the normal threshold...giving them like a 10 threshold. Hard to make a bad guy meaningful when he/she/it loses 10 from it's shifts, has a 10 shift block on the remaining powers, and may be taking a 10 shift hit each round it exists inside the threshold if it was pure spirit.
Still pretty useless most of the time, but I think the above mentioned situation is pretty nice.
You never weighed in on the rest of the thread though. please do so.
Far as the rest of the thread is concerned I agree with UmbraLux. But I don't think that roads are thresholds, because that would prevent ghosts from crossing the street.You're probably correct. Tend to think some things need to be represented as a "proto-threshold" or threshold of zero.
Unfortunately, that is not the case. A threshold's value starts at 2 and gets +2 for every narrative factor boosting it. Since the Carpenters are a big, loving, highly religious, and divinely favoured family they almost certainly have a base threshold of 6 or more. Which means that without Epic Conviction Michael and Charity can't use their Bless This House with it. And even if they could, they'd get more benefit from adding "my family has lived here for 150 years" to their backstory.
Actually, I'd say that less than half of all Bless This House users can actually use Bless This House on their own home.
Far as the rest of the thread is concerned I agree with UmbraLux. But I don't think that roads are thresholds, because that would prevent ghosts from crossing the street.
Couldn't one apply bless this house before situational factors? or if multiple people possessing bless this house lived behind a threshold couldn't they just forego the narrative boosts in favor of the larger bonus?
Not by RAW, no.
Changing that would be a good way to make Bless This House more useful.
But honestly, I'd rather just ditch it. I'm not sure what it adds to the game.
It's funny, isn't it, how the longer you play a game and the more you talk about it the more problems you find.
Even a comparatively well-constructed game like this one leaves me wanting to write a new edition after a while.
Well, it might be that Bless This House isn't intended to be used primarily on the person's own home--as has been pointed out, if Michael Carpenter is any indication, their home's probably going to have a much higher threshold than normal. But it is useful if they're going anywhere else, and as I recall one of the things about a Knight of the Cross is that they're called away from home a lot.
So Michael Carpenter's Bless This House might not do much to bolster the threshold of his own house, but it might make a difference on those occasions he ends up at Harry's apartment, or if he's traveling somewhere. If he and Charity go somewhere, that's an almost guaranteed +4 to a threshold whatever residence they find themselves at.
Though this creates something of an odd case where if you have a whole family with the power, they'll have a higher threshold in someone else's place than their own, now that I think of it. Then again, it's probably fitting that a power based on faith and good works and all that jazz has more benefit for others than for the user.
Alternatively, would it be too out there to consider "A person with Bless This House lives here" as one of those narrative aspects that bolsters the natural threshold?
Alternatively, would it be too out there to consider "A person with Bless This House lives here" as one of those narrative aspects that bolsters the natural threshold?
What creatures in the DV get a threshold?
Shapeshifters: maybe
wereforms other: maybe
lycanthropes: maybe, likely yes
hexenwolves: maybe, likely yes
loup garou: yes (he is usually ~human~)
critter-were (example wolf were tera West): maybe...likely no
denarians: I have no idea
Scions: maybe - in most cases yes
dragons: maybe, likely no
Do true beleivers have their powers removed while in thresholds if not invited in?
Can a threshold be used to keep things in?
Do items of power weaken when brought across a threshold?
What strength should a sunrise have? Seems to obliterate ghosts and spells (depending upon duration) - so it should be pretty strong.
When in the nevernever - if there is a residence can it have a threshold? if so, does that mean creatures of the nevernever can have thresholds (at least within the nevernever)?
Can/should a demense have a threshold?
To go along with the above post of mine: What qualities are required by a being to have a threshold? Sentience? A soul? Surely, it is not a matter of good and evil.
Thralls and Renfields: maybe - likely no
Has anyone considered its opposite number?
I'm working on some Demonic stuff, and a "Pox on Both Your Houses" Threshold reducing power seems like a natural fit for a "Knight of the Profane".
And in facing off against such an attack, someone inside with "Bless this House" becomes much more useful...
Subtly enthralled individuals should still have a threshold. Roughly enthralled individuals might have a threshold. I highly doubt that a Renfield would.
Sounds like a pretty weak power. Vulnerability to thresholds is almost optional.
Giving sunrise a threshold value sounds like a mistake to me. It'd likely be best to model it as a Compel or as part of Spirit Form's effects.
So I could spend a fate point to ignore the sunrise as a spirit?
The victim is crushedwhich seems to me quite sufficient to deny one the capacity to call any place 'home' in such a way as for that place to generate a threshold as a result.
into total thralldom by brute psychic force; this
destroys the victim’s mind, leaving him no good
for anything but gibbering violence. In many
ways, Renfields aren’t people anymore.
Sounds like a pretty weak power. Vulnerability to thresholds is almost optional.I agree "Pox on both your Houses" would be a weak power, but effectively no weaker than Bless this House itself...
I agree "Pox on both your Houses" would be a weak power, but effectively no weaker than Bless this House itself...
I agree "Pox on both your Houses" would be a weak power, but effectively no weaker than Bless this House itself...
I've been looking at powers, and how they work lately. It occurs to me that both powers could be improved by adding another 2 shift effect (usually powers have two 2-shift effects per refresh spent). I have no idea what those would be, but knowing what you need is somewhere to start.