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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: biomonkey on November 02, 2011, 06:17:47 PM

Title: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: biomonkey on November 02, 2011, 06:17:47 PM

Since seelie magic functions like sponsored magic, which is like taking ritual and channelling together;  what are the specializations you take for that?

I know you get access to biomancy at evocation speed, is that the ritual half of the equation, or is it channeling?

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: Anher on November 02, 2011, 06:31:48 PM

Looking at page 290 in YS under Seelie Magic it doesn't list any specilizations. As for the Bmoancy bit, typically that would be a ritual sort of thing as it's difficult to see an effective healing or shapeshifting effect as an evocation/channeling power (at least for me).

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: sinker on November 02, 2011, 06:43:31 PM

The specialization for Seelie magic is Seelie magic. I know that's a little obtuse but I'll explain. When you take Seelie magic (or any sponsored magic) it's like taking channeling with a single element that represents all of the things that the sponsor represents (in this case wildness, birth, growth, renewal, and warmth). Same for ritual.

As far as Biomancy at evocation's speed and methods, check out YS: 284. That is where you'll find the thematic ritual specialization of Biomancy. Basically Seelie magic allows you to perform those things as evocation effects using all of evocation's rules.

Of note if you're wondering about specializations for refinement you should note that since sponsored magic is considered channeling and ritual that you can't use refinement to specialize. Also since you only have one element you could only get a maximum of +1 power, +2 control (or vise versa) because of the specialization pyramid.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: biomonkey on November 02, 2011, 06:54:01 PM

So can he use whatever kind of element he wishes for channeling so long as it ties to summer (ie. summer fire, spirit, earth, etc.)?  Does this apply to ritual as well?  If that is the case, then my player is getting a broad range of effects he can garner by tying summer to his ritual magic.  For example, last game he used his seelie ritual magic to try an find the life force a specific person.

My problem is that it seems like a very broad purview for what is normally (for other sponsored magic) a narrow, yet potent, band.

To help me understand better, could you give me a plausible list spells and effects that could you would use with seelie magic.  Preferably as you would in game, so I can relate things to actual play.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: sinker on November 02, 2011, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: biomonkey on November 02, 2011, 06:54:01 PM

For example, last game he used his seelie ritual magic to try an find the life force a specific person.

This seems within his baliwick. He could also have done something similar by say sniffing someone out, etc.

Sponsored magic as a whole is very potent and flexible (with the possible exception of hellfire). The thing you have to remember is that there is someone or something on the other side of that magic. It has an agenda and it owns you. If you're feeling like your player doesn't respect the source then twist the knife. Pull on his leash. This of course is done via compels which give him fate points, but that's part of the game.

Quote from: biomonkey on November 02, 2011, 06:54:01 PM

To help me understand better, could you give me a plausible list spells and effects that could you would use with seelie magic.  Preferably as you would in game, so I can relate things to actual play.

As long as he can explain it within his elements to the table's satisfaction (and the table includes you) then it's an effect he's capable of. I can't see Seelie magic being very capable of conjuration or wards, but to be honest that's about all I see. I was going to go through the spell list in the book, but I realized that even if he can't perform the "Entropy Curse" specifically he is certainly capable of the transformation specialization that it's built on.

I could swear there was something somewhere about adding shifts to the spell to do it in a convoluted or difficult way (like Harry did when he pulled the heat away to freeze the street), but I can't remember it. I vaguely recall Sanctaphrax reminding me of it a while ago.

You remember that at all Sanctaphrax?

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 02, 2011, 08:34:30 PM

Is this what you were looking for? (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23028.msg990076.html#msg990076)

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: sinker on November 02, 2011, 09:31:13 PM

Thanks Sanctaphrax, I think that was what I was looking for, though I'm disappointed that it's less RAW (as I remembered), and more house ruled.

To sum that link up Biomonkey, the whole concept was that if you feel someone's stretching their element to cover a different element then just reduce the effect by two shifts. Keep in mind that they should be gaining something in this exchange. The standard actions for evocation are attack, maneuver and block. They should be able to do these without penalty. Only use this kind of thing if you feel that they're stretching for a benefit (like tripping a catch or blocking an action that they might normally have some difficulty with). I guess what I'm saying is make sure that they aren't just being penalized for their flavor.

If you like it, you can talk it over with your table, but don't implement any house rules without your players being in on it.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: Becq on November 02, 2011, 11:32:08 PM

It's probably not a great idea to think of Seelie/Unseelie magic in terms of the traditional Dresdonesque elements.  Instead, Summer evocation is one element of an alternate magic system that can produce results that are similar to the traditional evocation elements.  Summer is to Winter as Fire is to Water; but you can't neccessarily make direct correlations between Summer and Fire or Winter and Water.  All four can be used for flavored versions of all of the standard evocation types (attack, block, etc), but only in ways that make sense to their themes.  Yes, there is 'Summer Fire' and 'Summer Earth', which makes it seem as though Summer can do everything, but then again there is 'Fire Light' and 'Spirit Light', as well.

Perhaps a way to look at it is this: Summer is to Fire as Necromancy is to Summoning.  Necromancy (a Thaumaturgy theme) covers some aspects of Summoning (a Thaumaturgy function), but not all; it also covers some aspects of other Thaumaturgy function.  In the same way, Summer can do things that look like Fire (but aren't exactly) as well as some things that look like other elements.

Note that this only covers the evocation half of Seelie magic; there's also the thaumaturgy half which is described as having a much stronger correlation with Biomancy.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: biomonkey on November 03, 2011, 07:46:23 PM

Thank you for giving me a better idea of what he can so, I appreciate it.

Just a quick follow up: If a player has a 4 conviction and 4 discipline along with a +1 power focus to fire spells, can he safely call up 5 shifts of fire spell despite not having the discipline of an equal value?  Also, would he be able to create a fire rote this way?

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: Tedronai on November 03, 2011, 08:13:42 PM

'Safely' is a relative term.
He can 'safely' call up that power in that it will cost him only a single mental stress to do so.  Whether he can then control that power without having to resort to backlash or fallout is another matter, and one that is in the hands of the Dice Gods, though the odds are not in his favour.
It is hypothetically possible for any character with channeling or evocation (or a sponsored version thereof, for that matter) to create a rote of an arbitrarily high power level.  The spell being a rote merely means that the character is assumed to have rolled 0 on the dice for controlling the power.  If that's insufficient to the power they called up, well, good luck with that.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: sinker on November 03, 2011, 08:59:25 PM

Yeah, if he creates a rote that is five shifts of power, and he only has a 4 in discipline he would have a point of fallout or backlash every time he cast that spell. This can be a good thing (I had a whole character based around high powered rote spells that would result in backlash that manifested as stigmata) but is usually not the best idea.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 03, 2011, 09:00:39 PM

One thing to remember about sponsored magic is that it advances the sponsor's objectives - not necessarily the PC's.

The longest running example from the books is Hellfire.  The powers of hell were happy to give Harry all the Hellfire he wanted, to do anything he wanted, just for the compels.  Then the sponsor used that debt and offered compels to Harry's player - things "lose your tempter" or "be suspicious of people" or "piss off your allies".  Re-read the books with the game in mind and you can practically see those compels being used.  Slowly but surely those compels were changing how Harry acted.

With Soulfire...  compare the books where he has Soulfire with those where he has Hellfire and you'll see that Harry is doing more acts of random kindness.  Touching people's lives in good ways.  Not that he's not generally a nice guy but after he get Soulfire he makes a bit more time to help others.  Until we reach the latest book (GS Spoilers):

(click to show/hide)

where some gangbanger types shoot up a house that his friends are in - critically injuring one of them while killing a bystander - and his reaction is "How can I help get those boys out of that bad situation?"

So when looking at "what can X type of sponsored magic do" you have to ask "what does the sponsor want done" and "how does the sponsor want you to pay for it".  And it can be critically important the player and GM are on the same page for that last bot.

Richard

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: sinker on November 03, 2011, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: biomonkey on November 03, 2011, 07:46:23 PM

+1 power focus to fire spells

Of note are we talking about the same character? The one with Seelie magic? Does he have mortal magic too? If not then he can't use a fire focus because he can't use the fire element. His element is Seelie so he needs a focus for Seelie. He can manipulate fire as part of his element, however he does not have access to the mortal element of fire.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on November 03, 2011, 10:19:57 PM

Quote from: Tedronai on November 03, 2011, 08:13:42 PM

'Safely' is a relative term.
He can 'safely' call up that power in that it will cost him only a single mental stress to do so.  Whether he can then control that power without having to resort to backlash or fallout is another matter, and one that is in the hands of the Dice Gods, though the odds are not in his favour.
It is hypothetically possible for any character with channeling or evocation (or a sponsored version thereof, for that matter) to create a rote of an arbitrarily high power level.  The spell being a rote merely means that the character is assumed to have rolled 0 on the dice for controlling the power.  If that's insufficient to the power they called up, well, good luck with that.

Yeah, I've got a player with a rote five above what he can control with a zero control roll.  He fills his 4th mental stress bubble and invokes an aspect every time he uses it.  He's planning on changing it next time I let him to use both physical and mental stress tracks to boost it a little more.

Title: Re: Questions on Seelie Magic
Post by: Becq on November 04, 2011, 01:40:35 AM

Quote from: biomonkey on November 03, 2011, 07:46:23 PM

Just a quick follow up: If a player has a 4 conviction and 4 discipline along with a +1 power focus to fire spells, can he safely call up 5 shifts of fire spell despite not having the discipline of an equal value?  Also, would he be able to create a fire rote this way?

I'll add a couple of minor things to what others have said.  First, it might help clarify things to understand that what a "+1 power" bonus means is that the spellcaster increases his Conviction by +1 for purposes of casting a spell of the appropriate type.  (Similarly, "+1 control" just means that the spellcaster increase his Discipline by +1 for purposes of casting spells of the appropriate type.)  So in your example, the spellcaster could -- when casting fire spells only -- do anything a spellcaster with Conviction 5 and Discipline 4 could do.  Tedronai's summary gives you the spellcaster's options here.

A couple of other things to note:

First, you mentioned "+1 power focus to fire spells".  A focus needs to more specific regarding offensive vs defensive, so this focus would need to be "+1 offensive power to fire spells" or "+1 defensive power to fire spells".

Second, as Sinker noted, Fire is not the same as Seelie, even if casting fire-like Seelie magic.  So if the character only had Seelie magic, then he'd want to define his focus as "+1 offensive (or defensive) power to Seelie spells".  If the spellcaster has both Seelie magic and Evocation, then he gains the option of mixing the two into spells.  This allows you to use your Evocation bonuses along with the benefits granted by Seelie magic.  So, for example, a Summer Fire spell could make use of a power bonus for Fire (from an Evocation specialization or focus) and also downgrade the Toughness of Winter enemies.  In this case the character could have a Fire focus, which would benefit any spells that were pure Fire or Fire+Summer, but not spells that were 'pure' Summer.