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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zenten on October 29, 2011, 03:06:59 PM

Title: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: zenten on October 29, 2011, 03:06:59 PM
So I'm going to be having a Master Black Court Vampire doing some things that would be violating the Accords.  Thing is, the Black Court doesn't seem to have enough of an internal structure to enforce consequences on it's own members, so what reason would this vampire have to care about them at all?
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: UmbraLux on October 29, 2011, 03:37:09 PM
If you want a reason, I'd say it's simply that pissing off the surviving Black Court may be a bad idea.  Primarily because the survivors are the canniest and strongest of the court.  That said, I agree with you.  A narcissistic vampire (and they're all narcissistic  ;D) will care far more about his personal goals than about a semi-mythical master vampire who may or may not care about the accords.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: zenten on October 29, 2011, 03:41:45 PM
Yeah, this guy used to kill Russian mob bosses for a living, and escaped from several Russian prisons, including a very high security one, all when he was mortal.  I don't think other vampires would scare him much.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on October 29, 2011, 04:58:48 PM
Vampires breed fast.  They could crush him.  Plus, i dont know the BC of the RPG, but we dont know everything they can do.  I think that a Vampire as new as one who killed mob bosses wont scare someone like Mavra.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 29, 2011, 07:08:08 PM
I haven't seen any mention of them signing the Accords.  There wasn't any mention when Harry was being blackmailed to find a book or before Harry hit a nest of Black Court Vampires.

The Accords only cover the major supernatural nations.  It doesn't cover the Society of St. Giles or any of the other minor groups that get mentioned in passing.  The Knights of the Cross and the church group that supports them - they aren't part of the Accords.

My thoughts is that after Stroker's book got the majority of them killed they were no longer an important enough nation to be part of the Accords - which means they are neither restrained or protected by the Accords.

Richard
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Tedronai on October 29, 2011, 07:30:35 PM
When were the last set of Accords finalized?
When was Stoker's book published?
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on October 29, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
Last set of Accords were supposedly finalized about the time Harry moved to Chicago.  I'd have to check the timeline to get any more accurate.

Stoker's book was published in 1897.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Tedronai on October 29, 2011, 09:57:20 PM
So, at the rate some of those groups adapt to change, the fall of a major signatory to the previous Accords (ie. the Black Court), could well have played a significant part in the re-negotiation.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: spac3_pop3 on October 30, 2011, 08:30:01 AM
IIRC, the Black Court is still a nation recognized.  I believe Mavra actually used the Accords as leverage to force Harry to stay at Bianca's masquerade when he was trying to leave.  Regardless of whether or not they are or are not, said Blampire who is violating the Accords not only has to worry about other members of his nation punishing him for his misdeeds, but if he directly interferes with the affairs of another signatory (which will happen if a violation of the Accords occurs), they can take it upon themselves to administer reprimands.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 30, 2011, 06:32:03 PM
IIRC, the Black Court is still a nation recognized.  I believe Mavra actually used the Accords as leverage to force Harry to stay at Bianca's masquerade when he was trying to leave.

I don't think you do.  The scene with Mavra was about old world hospitality rather than the Accords.  A  truce had been declared and accepted by all in attendance - but one that had nothing to do with the Accords.  Otherwise Micheal wouldn't have been included in it or able to break it - he (as a "normal" human) is only considered food or property under the Accords.

The only wording we have is:
"The safety of all invited guests is assured, by word of the assembled court, of course."
- which doesn't reference the Accords but personal honour.

More:
When Mavra meets Harry by his grave she doesn't reference the Accords - nor does him.  Everything about that meeting is old world hospitality in action rather than a treaty between nations.  During that time the White Court is technically at war with the White Council but the Black Court? It's a non-entity.  To quote Thomas:
"Well. Only two, for all practical purposes. The Black Court has fallen on hard times of late, the poor darlings."

Richard
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: spac3_pop3 on November 01, 2011, 01:55:29 AM
Ah, Richard is right.  That was based more around hospitality than anything to do with the Accords.  Though with the vague wording and lack of any definitive proof, I would assume a nation stands until the entirety of it is defeated.  I tend to think of the Accords as the supernatural UN, if one of the countries is currently crippled and recovering from one disaster or another, the other nations won't take it upon themselves to collectively cut them out from the bylaws.  Not to mention the fact that a BCV can reproduce rather easily (even if the offspring aren't as powerful as their progenitor) and repopulating their nation shouldn't be much of a feat if they decided to do so.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Tedronai on November 01, 2011, 03:46:56 AM
Not to mention the fact that a BCV can reproduce rather easily (even if the offspring aren't as powerful as their progenitor) and repopulating their nation shouldn't be much of a feat if they decided to do so.

Except for the fact that the original cause of their collapse remains an ongoing condition of modern life: too many people are aware of their weaknesses.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: polkaneverdies on November 01, 2011, 12:10:30 PM
Woj states that the other powers had grown worried about how powerful the blampires were becoming. I would imagine that now that they have been knocked down nobody plans on letting them stand back up again.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on November 01, 2011, 08:06:46 PM
Woj states that the other powers had grown worried about how powerful the blampires were becoming. I would imagine that now that they have been knocked down nobody plans on letting them stand back up again.

Congratulations, you've just stuck Tubthumping in my head.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: polkaneverdies on November 01, 2011, 08:23:47 PM
At first I smiled evilly at that, but then it got stuck in my head. Curses!
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: computerking on November 01, 2011, 10:09:34 PM
At first I smiled evilly at that, but then it got stuck in my head. Curses!
Curse you both, it's got me now!
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: pensivetoast on November 02, 2011, 06:57:46 PM
Except for the fact that the original cause of their collapse remains an ongoing condition of modern life: too many people are aware of their weaknesses.
True, but many people know of the weakness's of the fae, like cold iron.

Woj states that the other powers had grown worried about how powerful the blampires were becoming. I would imagine that now that they have been knocked down nobody plans on letting them stand back up again.

All the more reason to keep them under the guidance of accords as opposed to being free agents.

Really, I think it comes down to story telling. Would it be better for your story to have a vampire that is so nasty that he ignore the Accords at will? Or is it better to have the ramifications of having the PC's try to bring the blampire up on Accord violations?
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 02, 2011, 08:14:25 PM
All the more reason to keep them under the guidance of accords as opposed to being free agents.

I think we differ in how much the Accords actually mean on a day to day.

Look at the examples of what signatories have done:
- tried to use the Shroud of Turin to create a huge plague
- targeted a wizard's girlfriend to be turned to score a point on the wizards.
- one side tried to encourage more True Love in the world to screw with the Court.
- Killed a member of a rival nation while she was n the hospital after having a baby (i.e. Harry's mother);
- Cursed the head of one faction in a way that will forever weaken (i.e. Harry's mother's death curse).
- walking into Marcone's office - breaking doors and hurting people along the way - to demand the return of his lost property.
- targeted another signatory for major thief (bank accounts and security code).
- One Freehold lord has set up a wizard killing trap and occasionally asks himself "Is now the time to kill Harry - or do I keep waiting for him to choose the time of our fight?".

Speaking of Freeholders - did anyone notice Harry treating Marcone any differently since White Night? Because I haven't seen any extra respect flowing that way.

Really, I think it comes down to story telling. Would it be better for your story to have a vampire that is so nasty that he ignore the Accords at will? Or is it better to have the ramifications of having the PC's try to bring the blampire up on Accord violations?

Bring them where? The Accords are a bit like international law.  If one faction ignores the rules they open themselves up to sanctions but in the default setting no "accords police" showed up when Harry broke them.

If people want to expand the setting to have Accord police and Accord peacekeepers - that's great.  If that's what you're interested in then would strongly recommend that you look into the Day Watch series of books.
(spoilers for that series - mostly for Book 3)
(click to show/hide)

Richard
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: pensivetoast on November 03, 2011, 06:03:53 PM
No, I don't think there are any accord police. At least, there is no evidence of it in the books. On the other hand, the Archive does state that if anyone breaks the rules during the dual between Harry and Ortega, that it would be her duty to destroy them.

I think the accords are a very broad set of rules. They cover things like dueling, grievances, neutral grounds, and since they where written up by Mab and her brethren, probably offer some subtle advantage to the winter court that will one day bite everyone in the rear.

That being said, while the rules are probably loose and poorly enforced to a degree ( a lot of 'I was looking over there, so I didn't see that thing you just did that broke the rules), they are still rules. They can be used at any time as justification.

The challenge here would be bringing forth evidence of the accord being broken to interested parties. IE: However would benefit the most from seeing the blampires taken down another peg. And then convincing that other party to act.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Drulinda on November 03, 2011, 08:45:10 PM
While nothing has been mentioned yet, considering that the remainng Black Court are the strongest, swiftest, smartest etc i dont see why the remaining should not be enough to still qualify as a (weakend) small nation in the accords. Or pherhaps do what Marcone did as a group? Either way it makes sense that the black court would stay in the supernatural law for defensive purposes.

Even if they werent accord members the smart ones dont get cought and its in the best interests of survivors to kill any newbie that draws unwanted attention to the court.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: ARedthorn on November 03, 2011, 10:32:49 PM
The most recent iteration of the accords may be more recent than the BCVamp's fall... but how old is it's original ratification, and might they have signed on to that one? It's possible that even in their weakened state, they may have gotten grandfathered in.
The UK isn't close to the empire it was when the UN was formed, and Russia has all but shattered, but they still hold veto power within it because they were one of the founding nations.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2011, 02:17:04 AM
Wait, you guys were talking about Mavra at Bianca's party. Wasn't she there as a representative of an accorded nation? Wasn't everyone there who wasn't a red court vampire a representative of an accorded nation or a guest of one (with one exception of course)? I mean that was why Harry was there, and Lea, and Thomas and even Ferrovax.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Tedronai on November 04, 2011, 02:23:57 AM
If their identities are as Harry later suspected, it certainly wasn't why the two shadowy figures in the back were there (suspected Black Council involvement).
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2011, 02:27:44 AM
Right I forgot about them, but they still represented a powerful supernatural group (as the circle has proved to be). If BCVs aren't accorded then the same is most definitely not true of Mavra.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 04, 2011, 04:09:05 AM
Wait, you guys were talking about Mavra at Bianca's party. Wasn't she there as a representative of an accorded nation? Wasn't everyone there who wasn't a red court vampire a representative of an accorded nation or a guest of one (with one exception of course)? I mean that was why Harry was there, and Lea, and Thomas and even Ferrovax.

There were others that Harry didn't recognise - and it's my belief that Mavra was there just as a guest.  Not a member of an Accord nation but rather the person who had tutored Bianca in magic.  Possible as a "see? I've got a rare Black Court Vampire at my party" type statement.  When they talked she didn't mention the Accords but was using Old World Manners like a weapon.

And as someone mentioned, it looks like Cowl and his girlfriend was there - and they don't appear to be from an Accord nation.

But I could be wrong - if you can find anything in that party scene that refers to her being part of the Accords (or in any other scene where she appears) then please let me know.

Richard
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2011, 05:40:49 AM
There were others that Harry didn't recognise - and it's my belief that Mavra was there just as a guest.  Not a member of an Accord nation but rather the person who had tutored Bianca in magic.  Possible as a "see? I've got a rare Black Court Vampire at my party" type statement.

Ahh, that makes sense. I had forgotten that Mavra was Bianca's tutor. Alright then, carry on.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: UmbraLux on November 04, 2011, 12:32:34 PM
I think the Black Court are still Accord signatories...if they ever were.  After all, the surviving individuals have as much or more power than most free holding signatories and the Black Court King could probably take a single Queen of Faerie down. 

That said, I don't see the Accords as providing much long term advantage to anyone other than Mab.  I suspect there are many Powers who haven't signed them. 
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: mdodd on November 04, 2011, 03:53:02 PM
Congratulations, you've just stuck Tubthumping in my head.
To erase any tune going around in your head your must play Slash's guitar break from November Rain 10 times VERY LOUDLY and if that fails play Enter Sandman by Metallica. Of course if you don't like rock music that will just F--- you up totally!!! 8)
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: polkaneverdies on November 04, 2011, 05:42:54 PM
@umbralux  Iirc we have no idea if there is anything like a bcv king.
  If you meant Maeve or Lilly then an elder bcv might indeed be able to wallop one of them.  If you meant mab or Titania then you are incorrect. The Woj list of things that might be able to take mab down lists a union of pre-stokerlypse bcv elders as one potential candidate. Another Woj questioning the validity of the stokerlypse if they could take mab down had him referencing their number at 20ish or 30ish ( I forget which). I would say that rules out one of them taking her out.
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: UmbraLux on November 04, 2011, 09:28:30 PM
@umbralux  Iirc we have no idea if there is anything like a bcv king.
Yes...and no.  While we don't have direct evidence, we do have Mavra paying homage to a noble of another court and, if they were signatories to the Accords, they almost certainly had a leader. 

Quote
  If you meant Maeve or Lilly then an elder bcv might indeed be able to wallop one of them.  If you meant mab or Titania then you are incorrect.
There are many (or at least several) Queens of Faerie.  There's only one Mab and one Titania.   ;)
Title: Re: The Accords and the Black Court
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on November 05, 2011, 01:04:50 AM
To erase any tune going around in your head your must play Slash's guitar break from November Rain 10 times VERY LOUDLY and if that fails play Enter Sandman by Metallica. Of course if you don't like rock music that will just F--- you up totally!!! 8)

Sorry, Metallica's right out.  Haven't been able to stomach them since they cut their hair and went from being pissed off rebels to being The Man over the whole Napster thing.  Wasn't the copyright thing, was more like your grandmother taking up a career in porn;  just wrong.

Eric Johnson doing Cliffs of Dover work instead?