Another thing to consider is what happens when somebody attacks another person in a grapple. It can get very nasty depending on how you rule it. The most strait forward interpretation is that the target has to roll defense versus the strength of the grapple, if they cannot beat it then they dont get to roll defense, with massive stress incoming.
You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll.
Not so.
Casting Orbius with a long duration is a dumb move in a duel. Optimal play is to crank power as high as possible, then cast another spell to extend it.
Also, 5x1 stress=!=5 stress.
Anyway, the real problem is the block. The damage is just insult added to injury.
An 8 shift damage spell launched at a guy with Supernatural Toughness and a Fair defense roll inflicts a moderate consequence. An 8 shift Orbius launched at the same guy is utter doom unless he can get an 8-shift result to oppose it. Which some characters are just not likely to manage, ever.
Making this worse is the fact that one can boost spell power very easily. This is limited in usefulness with attacks that need to be aimed, but blocks don't need to be aimed so...
Sacrificing a pair of mild consequences can get you up to a 13-shift Orbius. Which is basically game over. A similar Feugo wouldn't be so bad, because it would still only be control 8 and therefore soakable with a severe and a moderate by our Supernaturally Tough example guy.
Oh I guess I read the spell differently than everyone else to me it reads to be a block that is resisted by endurance and only endurance. That is why it hurt my head so much. I mean reading YS 294-295 it really does read as a grapple that can only be resisted by endurance. Add in the suggestion to have a variant which does the same thing except is opposed solely by might and yeah I think you get why I found it so frustrating. If its a normal block that you can beat with anything great, you still need to choose an action that would reasonably break the "grapple" YS 211 to have your action release you from the spell but yeah no where near as bad as your grappled and endurance is your only way out.
Still though I have to say that the way the spell is written it feels like they intended it as a grapple resisted only with endurance as long as you need to breath.
Thanks for the other takes on it guys
Anyway, the real problem is the block.What exactly do you mean by that? The "block against all actions" part? As long as there is no additional damage, I have no problem with that. In fact, look at Elaine's air bubble spell from SK. It is effectively that: a block against every action. And it takes Harry out, at least by concession, without a single shift of stress flying during that scene.
And if you have multiple targets, you can make it zone-wide.
2 shifts of power allow the effect to cover
multiple allies within the same zone (typically
the same zone the wizard occupies). Covering
multiple zones requires 2 additional shifts
per zone.
So technically you can only extend a block to multiple allies.I don't have a quote at the moment, but isn't a block either on 1 person, blocking multiple actions or a zonewide block blocking only one action against multiple targets? I seem to remember there being a restriction like that somewhere, but I am unable to find it right now.
To be purely technical the RAW doesn't allow you to extend offensive blocks zone wide.
Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action.
When you create a block, the block has to be specific and clear in two ways: who it's intended to affect, and what types of action (attack, block, maneuver, move) it's trying to prevent.
Orbius is specific in the description on preventing breathing, therefore that is all it prevents.
A few disordered points:I know that, of course. What I meant was, if you are not willing to spent a fate point or a consequence on a conflict, and you get blocked like that, you might as well concede the conflict and get it over with, I don't see a reason to keep pushing stress on the target just to go for a taken out result.
1. You can't take someone out with a normal block. If Elaine's air shell took Harry out, it was an attack inflicting stress. A 100000 shift block with 10000000 exchanges of duration won't take out a pixie.
2. If you can immobilize an opponent for 8 exchanges, you've either won or had no hope in the first place. The stress inflicted by Orbius is just not that significant compared to its ability to block everything.Maybe a better way to go would be "block everything of one type". There might still be some overlap, but it would still dial down the power. In the case of my Elaine example, it would make sense to say it was a block against physical actions. Harry proceeds to do a declaration (remembering the spell from their shared past) and probably a mental maneuver (concentrating on the weak spot of the spell) before he attempts to break out.
Actually, it does allow zone-wide offensive blocks. Unfortunately:
4. Wish I had my books on hand to check out this zone block stuff. I was under the impression that evocations of all kinds could be made zonewide for 2 shifts of power.
2 shifts of power let you affect every target
in one particular zone you can see (filling the
zone with fire, for example, instead of shooting
fire at one monster). You can go after more than
one zone at a time by buying this effect multiple
times, so four shifts of power allows you to affect
all targets in two zones.
Orbius is specific in the description on preventing breathing, therefore that is all it prevents.
Orbius is specific in being adjudicated as a grapple.
Grapples are blocks against (almost) all actions.
Orbius is, thereby, specific in being a block against (almost) all actions.
But then, we've been over this before. You have your interpretation; I have mine.
A few disordered points:
1. You can't take someone out with a normal block. If Elaine's air shell took Harry out, it was an attack inflicting stress. A 100000 shift block with 10000000 exchanges of duration won't take out a pixie.
2. If you can immobilize an opponent for 8 exchanges, you've either won or had no hope in the first place. The stress inflicted by Orbius is just not that significant compared to its ability to block everything.
3. There was no typo in my earlier example. 8 shifts base, take mild mental and tick off 4th mental stress box to get +5 power. Eat 5 points of backlash, taking a mild physical and filling in 3rd physical stress box. 13 shifts.
4. Wish I had my books on hand to check out this zone block stuff. I was under the impression that evocations of all kinds could be made zonewide for 2 shifts of power.
5. I have no idea what the "resisted by Endurance" thing in Orbius's stats means. As far as I know, blocks are never resisted with anything.
To be completely technical, that argument has holes punched into it from a previous argument. If a defense roll is not an action (and therefore cannot be blocked) then neither is breathing.
(...quote from YS251...)
The quote above is from the block action.
2 shifts of power allow the effect to cover
multiple allies within the same zone (typically
the same zone the wizard occupies). Covering
multiple zones requires 2 additional shifts
per zone.
No, it is not - it is from the attack action on YS251. The block action, YS252, is more vague in regards to how it can be used.
@The Mighty Buzzard:
I really don't think that this is so clear-cut. As far as I know, Tedronai is neither illiterate nor evil. So if he genuinely thinks that it blocks everything, then maybe there's some merit to that.
The main cause of the disagreement is probably the fact that "a block against breathing" doesn't actually mean anything according to the game rules.
It occurs to me that a lot of The Mighty Buzzard's argument is that it says "Offensive Block, adjudicated as a grapple." How would you respond then if we just made a magic grapple? There's other RAW supporting that.
Nah, my main beef is the description is ignored in favor of a vague and largely unhelpful line later in the spell writeup. I'd be peachy with it if the description stated or even implied that it limited actions as extensively as a grapple.
Which is a fine complaint.
But I'd suggest ignoring a piece of the associated rules text in favour of a largely unhelpful (ie. rulesless) piece of fluff is similarly problematic.