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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JStreet on October 19, 2011, 05:44:05 PM
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I had a player come to me and say it does not make sense that a focused practitioner can only take Refinement once. I totally agree. You focus all your time on ONE type of magic. But at the same time, you can only take it once cause it works like skills for stacking. Has Anyone Come up with a house rule or solution to this? Was this done just so someone cant dump all there refresh in to refinement + Channeling?
Thanks in advance
JStreet
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As far as I know, you can take it as often as you like, but you can not chose the "specialization" option. Though 1 point of refresh spent would get you full evocation, which grants you a whole lot more than channeling + refinement.
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I'm pretty sure that Focused Practitioners can take as much Refinement as they want.
So I don't understand your question.
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Sorcerers can only take refinement once per spell-ability (evo and thaum), though I interpret that as for the purposes of specialization and/or additional elements, and not restricting additional item slots.
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YS182 Refinement Example states:
For Example, You can't have a +2 bonus for water evocation till you have taken +1 in something else, either control bonus for water or control/power in something else. Likewise you can not have a +3 till you have a +2 and +1. If you have 2 bonus' at +2, you must have 2 more at +1, etc
To me, that reads that its like the skill blocks.
+3 something
+2 something
+1 something
that would work.
+3
+1
Would not.
So that being said, a Focused Practitioner could only have a max of +1 control/power and then +2 in which ever the +1 is not in. Assuming they took Only ritual or only evocation....
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That applies only to specializations, which a FP cannot have anyway.
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besides flavor, is there any benefit to being a Focused Practitioner then?
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It is slightly cheaper.
But if you intend to get much Refinement, you should upgrade to Evocation.
This has been discussed before. If you want links, I can probably find some.
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besides flavor, is there any benefit to being a Focused Practitioner then?
More spare refresh. FP isn't meant to be able to say "I am uber-godlike with all things fire!". By design, they're supposed to be a hair above one-trick-ponies and weaker than Sorcerers, magic-wise. If you want more, you should start shifting yourself up to a higher-powered template.
That's my take on it anyway. Some folks like more munchkin in their game than I do.
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Yet again buzzard speaks the truth.
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Am I the only one who remembers the cannon talking about how focused practitioners are actually not capable of being wizards? How they aren't just not as learned, but actually lacking the strength to be able to do more? Thematically they aren't super awesome with the one thing they choose to work with, but actually barely capable of doing the one thing that they have the affinity for.
Or am I just crazy?
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Am I the only one who remembers the cannon talking about how focused practitioners are actually not capable of being wizards? How they aren't just not as learned, but actually lacking the strength to be able to do more? Thematically they aren't super awesome with the one thing they choose to work with, but actually barely capable of doing the one thing that they have the affinity for.
Or am I just crazy?
I expect there's that and there's people who just don't know and haven't had a chance to live up to their potential. You could play it either way and have fun.
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Am I the only one who remembers the cannon talking about how focused practitioners are actually not capable of being wizards? How they aren't just not as learned, but actually lacking the strength to be able to do more? Thematically they aren't super awesome with the one thing they choose to work with, but actually barely capable of doing the one thing that they have the affinity for.
Or am I just crazy?
Some Focused Practitioners lack significant magical oomph to pull off much. Others have the potential for more but simply haven't grown into it. Still others are Wizard-level within their specific niche, but don't have any talent at all outside of that niche (as in, even less than Harry's talent for veils, in everything). Mortimer, for example, is hinted by Leanansidhe to have the magical "batteries" to pull off some major stuff, but he lacks the right talents to even become a sorcerer. That's part of he was targeted in Ghost Story.
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Am I the only one who remembers the cannon talking about how focused practitioners are actually not capable of being wizards? How they aren't just not as learned, but actually lacking the strength to be able to do more? Thematically they aren't super awesome with the one thing they choose to work with, but actually barely capable of doing the one thing that they have the affinity for.
Or am I just crazy?
Dead Beat - a bunch of old men, kind of okay at what they do, but they lack the talent to ever get on the council.
That's a life time of learning and they still haven't made the cut while others make it when they are teenagers. To me that speaks of inborn talents and limitations.
Richard
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Am I the only one who remembers the cannon talking about how focused practitioners are actually not capable of being wizards? How they aren't just not as learned, but actually lacking the strength to be able to do more? Thematically they aren't super awesome with the one thing they choose to work with, but actually barely capable of doing the one thing that they have the affinity for.
Or am I just crazy?
It depends. Dresden is always going on about how Mort can do things with Ectomancy that Dresden could never accomplish without serious work. At the same time, there is an elitism factor with Wizards, and some question as to why someone who COULD be a Wizard would opt to be anything less. And there are textual mentions of people whose conflicts revolve around not being good enough for the White Council.
I'm playing my Tenebromancer as someone with Wizard-level potential who had been raised in a Cult and trained in a narrow focus growing up, but is now coming into his own, eventually to achieve Wizard-level capability.
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Dead Beat - a bunch of old men, kind of okay at what they do, but they lack the talent to ever get on the council.
That's a life time of learning and they still haven't made the cut while others make it when they are teenagers. To me that speaks of inborn talents and limitations.
Richard
Inborn talents and limitations holding back those particular individuals.
Whether that applies universally or not is another matter entirely. And one that cannot, in my opinion be honestly interpreted from canon, given the blatant fallibility of the narrator on the subject, as exemplified in his about-face with regards to Mortimer.
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I would refer to Mort as a highly specialized practitioner, with full Thamaturgy, and maybe specialized Evocation.
As for refinement for a FP, Dresden has said several times in the books that if some one practices enough, they can get scary good at a small number of spells. I believe Bianca was an example of this.
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so would it be fair to rule that one could take Refinement over and over for say... just Spirit/Force, but maybe say it only effects your Rotes? or you only get your Rotes?
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No.
You can take Refinement over and over for foci, but not even once for specializations. Limiting your specializations to rotes doesn't change that.
It sounds as though you might want to consider writing a new power.
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Mechanics wise I think Iago said that to reflect amazing levels of talent for focused practitioners just give them high base stats like superb or better. The intended design for them at launch was that if you wanted them to progress was to make them a sorcerer then a wizard stats wise if I remember correctly.
I think what confuses a lot of us is that what Harry would call a wizard and what you would call a wizard powers wise are two different things that use the same name. I often think that the game would have been much better served by the creations of different titles not used in the books. In short try to remember that having all the wizard template powers does not mean you are a wizard in game. You could still be a "hedge wizard" "focused practitioner" "sorcerer" "ectomancer" or whatever other title you embrace. Its pretty clear from recent books that the white council is in fact not the end all be all of magic and that Harry does tend to spew their rhetoric even though by now one would hope he knows better.
Now if your issue is that you only want to say have Channeling element Fire then yeah mechanics wise you will have to alter the rules. Personally I like the idea of the focused practitioner buying full powers and finding a way to describe them through their focus. I mean just because its from the water element doesn't mean you have to describe the entropy effects it generates as being globes of water it could be the black flames of entropy scattering things back to their basic elements. Remember the book freely admits the five elements are an arbitrary standard and you can always work around them.
In short just try to remember having Evocation and Thaumaturgy doesn't mean you have to describe it that way fluff wise.
Of course this is all just my two cents worth.
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If I wanted to create a ____-prodigy (wizard level power or more, with a single element only- the way harry has occasionally described in the books)... I'd take evocation... self-limited to a single element. With a willing GM, in return for that self-limitation, I could break pyramid on specialization (you already can just by having a wide variety of small, subtle foci- the difference at this point is flavor anyway- wanting something a bit more raw talent and less nifty toys).
Or alternately, sponsored magic might be more appropriate to someone like that. Sure, sure, there's no sponsor, technically, but flavor-wise, it fits better. Most of what Morty does is exactly thaumaturgy-at-the-speed-of-evo.
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Personally, I recommend taking evocation with elements that are all similar to the one you specialize in. Like Water, Ice, Blood, Steam and Acid for a hydromancer.
If that doesn't float your boat, I'd try a variant of Channeling that has no focus slots (and can't be Refined to have any) but that allows uncapped specializations.
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If that doesn't float your boat, I'd try a variant of Channeling that has no focus slots (and can't be Refined to have any) but that allows uncapped specializations.
I suspect this to be severely problematic at high refresh levels.
The pyramid is there for a reason.
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You're completely right.
I shouldn't have said uncapped. What I meant and what I think is appropriate is pyramid-less specializations.
We've been over the balance of that before, as I'm sure you recall.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19934.165.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19934.165.html)
Our conclusions were inconclusive. I think it's balanced enough for casual use, but maybe not enough for serious rough treatment.
EDIT: I would seriously consider raising the price to -3 and throwing in a free specialization. That'd make it a touch weaker.