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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Arcane257 on October 19, 2011, 03:47:26 AM
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or do I?
I know by the rules you must take a catch that bypasses your abilities but it seems reasonable to me that some beings don't have a catch so to speak (unless its a universal thing like Swords of the Cross, Soul Fire, ect.). Has anyone tried this out? If so did it seem unreasonable to you? I am sure this has come up before, and what I am mainly interested in is peoples thoughts on it. Potential problems, actual play, and so forth.
Thanks in advance
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There's a couple general lines of thought here:
1) Why not have a catch, but one so obscure and hard to get that it's worth +0? It'd probably never come up in the game, ever.
2) Only Physical Immunity really *needs* a catch. All other toughness/recovery powers can be beaten with a large enough application of force.
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I mean I could allow a catch of a dagger with my true name inscribed on it that was forged by Zeus on the first day of the year 273 BC, but at that point I am pretty much saying no catch yeah?
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Yep. Technically you need a catch but, since it can be a +0 unknown catch, it doesn't need to be something which shows up in the game.
Even a +0 catch on Physical Immunity isn't necessarily a stopper (though I agree with EoD and would encourage use of a catch) - you can still be taken out via social or mental means.
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Basically what inspired this idea was reading a book the other day about Frankenstein still being alive creating newer and better creations. I thought it would be fun to bring that into the D-verse with "Frankenstein" being a disciple of Kemmler who went a different path (I am sure I am not the first to think of something like this). I thought it would be fun to play a creation with the catch weapons with my true name on them, especially with an aspect of my only Frankenstein knows my True Name or the like. So be stronger, faster, more resilient, guy who is wondering around wondering if he is a real boy or Pinocchio and if ether turns out to be true now what? Seems like it could be a lot of fun and a good character to hand to a newbie that will be simple mechanics wise but leave plenty of room for character development over time. Then I got to wondering if such a character really needs a catch as thematically it didn't seem too important... which lead me here.
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Well, it's probably not necessary for balance reasons.
But it seems to me that most forms of Toughness can be bypassed somehow. Skin like iron won't help against poison. A robot is vulnerable to hexing. Simple physical size renders one more vulnerable to heavy weapons. Etc.
Where exactly does the Toughness of this new creation of Frankenstein come from?
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I was thinking like 200 years or so of mystical research dedicated to making bodies resistant to harm by a guy who is willing to use just about anything to get the job done. I figure like the rest of Kemmlers brood he would probably be very over confident about his mental, social, mystical defenses so not worry too much about building them into the body as he will bring those into it when he finally creates his masterpiece. I also kind of like the idea of him using the flesh of different super naturals in his creations in an attempt to further increase the bodies resiliency.
To be honest though I saw it less as toughness and more as a recovery thing. IE the body just keeps repairing all harm done until it just gets overwhelmed and can't keep up anymore. Thats probably because I grew up watching the crow though and the idea of someone watching the hole you just shot up in their hand close up before they go back to beating you to a pulp still amuses me on some level.
PS also you really think a pixie is less threatened by the impact of a speeding minivan going 60 than say the Jolly Green Giant? or am I misunderstanding your size comment?
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To the heavy weapons vs small or large targets... best example of what he means is this:
1) Pixie hit by a point blank shotgun slug.
2) Pixie caught in a 4lb C4 blast.
3) a giant hit by a point blank shotgun slug.
4) a giant caught in a 4lb C4 blast.
Not saying that the C4 isn't clearly more damaging than the shotgun- or less threatening somehow, but either one will completely obliterate the pixie... it's semantics which one is more damaging, when all either one leaves is a pasty smudge.
Almost no difference between 1 and 2... but the difference between 3 and 4 is significant because the Giant is actually capable of taking that entire blast if he's right on top of it.
The solution offered by Sancta is that instead of granting C4 damage on the order of Weapon:10 or more (which it would need to take out the giant easily), simply give it the Massive Damage label, and have it bypass the catch of larger creatures.
Make sense?
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What ARedthorn said.
With the addendum that a pixie might actually be less threatened by the impact of a vehicle.
If you don't have much mass, you might just get carried along by the minivan instead of being splattered. What hurts you is having some parts of your body differently from others, and being tiny makes it easier for your entire body to move together.
Apparently flies can take hits from cars without too much trouble, but don't quote me on that. Just something I heard somewhere.
For the character in question here, I think that you could easily crib the catch from one of the supernaturals used in your development. Or you could use the "dead is dead" thing from the ghoul catch (if you have Recovery).
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The way I always look at a +0 catch is that it doesn't have to be specified in advance because I will only use it when it's dramatically appropriate and it will predominantly be GM fiat anyway.
So yeah, just give him a +0 unknown catch and then when his story comes to a head go "Oh no, it's that thing that hurts you!" It tends to work well (especially when you go into more detail than "that thing that hurts you").
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If you don't want a catch you could just have a +0 catch of sword of the crosses it means the same thing anyway (your catch is an irrelevance as the swords bypass it either way).
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Here's a good 0 point catch:
"No one born of woman or fathered by man may slay ye, yet only mortal born might do so".
- meaning that you need a test tube baby delivered by C-section strike the final blow...
And the crazy thing is, it's only 0 point if the prophecy is known only to a handful of people.
Richard
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Here's a good 0 point catch:
"No one born of woman or fathered by man may slay ye, yet only mortal born might do so".
- meaning that you need a test tube baby delivered by C-section strike the final blow...
And the crazy thing is, it's only 0 point if the prophecy is known only to a handful of people.
Richard
That seems like it would have to be a clone depending on how strictly you define the word 'fathered'.
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Thanks for the replies folks. It looks like some really think having a functional catch is needed for game balance and others do not. For my own take I really think the power of attacks out classes the defensive power gained from toughness and regen, within the scene anyways, and that's before you move on to ritual magic.
As for needing a catch being in the books I am not so sure anymore. Recent books have had some bad guys in them that seem to have pretty uber toughness that has no exception and their "weaknesses" being indirect attacks or just an even higher level than previously done brute force brought against them.
Thanks again for all the help
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Wait, who here has been arguing that you need a Catch for balance?
I don't think you need one for balance. I just have trouble thinking of a way to get Toughness that cannot be bypassed.
PS: Even if I cared about examples from the novels, which I don't, I'd still call whatever examples you have in mind irrelevant because having no evidence of a catch is not the same as having evidence of no catch.
PPS: The rules say you need a catch. This is an inarguable fact, unless I misremember. What I'm trying to say is that it's a rule that you can ignore without consequences.
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That seems like it would have to be a clone depending on how strictly you define the word 'fathered'.
Not really. The Shakespearean origin of "not born of woman" covered someone who was born via C-section. If that counts as not being born of woman than artificial insemination would cover "not fathered by man".
I can see PCs who hear about that starting their search with clones etc. The catch would work best for a over confident villain - but only if the group had a member who qualified. Then you'd have a "Wait - what do you mean I might die here? The witches told me the truth and in doing so really and truly deceived me!" type moment.
Richard
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Not really. The Shakespearean origin of "not born of woman" covered someone who was born via C-section. If that counts as not being born of woman than artificial insemination would cover "not fathered by man".
I can see PCs who hear about that starting their search with clones etc. The catch would work best for a over confident villain - but only if the group had a member who qualified. Then you'd have a "Wait - what do you mean I might die here? The witches told me the truth and in doing so really and truly deceived me!" type moment.
Richard
Which is why you go with anti-matter as your catch. Anyone who can figure out how to acquire and safely carry around an anti-matter weapon was going to ruin your whole day regardless.
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Which is why you go with anti-matter as your catch. Anyone who can figure out how to acquire and safely carry around an anti-matter weapon was going to ruin your whole day regardless.
As someone whose job it is to maintain and repair machines that make, store and shoot antimatter... Oh, yeah.
Current anti-matter "weapon" technology requires about 5 square miles of "gun", that produces less than billionth of a spoonful of antimatter over the course of a day. The target would have to be coaxed into standing still at the aperture of the gun for minutes, at least, if not hours and would die of acute radiation poisoning from the residual radiation created by the gun long before actual antimatter would give them anything more than the equivalent of a very, very small cigarette burn.
;) :P
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Not really. The Shakespearean origin of "not born of woman" covered someone who was born via C-section. If that counts as not being born of woman than artificial insemination would cover "not fathered by man".
I can see PCs who hear about that starting their search with clones etc. The catch would work best for a over confident villain - but only if the group had a member who qualified. Then you'd have a "Wait - what do you mean I might die here? The witches told me the truth and in doing so really and truly deceived me!" type moment.
Richard
That would be the Shakespearean origin, yes, which is why I said it depends on how strictly you define 'fathered'. If you mean has no genetic material coming from a male, then it would have to be a clone. If you mean in the traditional sense of two people not having gotten together to have a child, then, yes AI would cover it.
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As someone whose job it is to maintain and repair machines that make, store and shoot antimatter... Oh, yeah.
Current anti-matter "weapon" technology requires about 5 square miles of "gun", that produces less than billionth of a spoonful of antimatter over the course of a day. The target would have to be coaxed into standing still at the aperture of the gun for minutes, at least, if not hours and would die of acute radiation poisoning from the residual radiation created by the gun long before actual antimatter would give them anything more than the equivalent of a very, very small cigarette burn.
;) :P
Exactly. It's more or less like having a catch of TWG Personally Kicking Me In The Balls.
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It probably doesn't happen often but I bet his Nikes have a decent weapon rating.
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One thing I like about the internet is that you get the most eclectic mixtures of people. Every once in a while someone just suddenly turns out to be an antimatter-generator-machine-maker.
I wonder if we have any third world dictators here.
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I wish we could '+1' posts on this forum...
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One thing I like about the internet is that you get the most eclectic mixtures of people. Every once in a while someone just suddenly turns out to be an antimatter-generator-machine-maker.
I wonder if we have any third world dictators here.
You can't prove anything :P
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One thing I like about the internet is that you get the most eclectic mixtures of people. Every once in a while someone just suddenly turns out to be an antimatter-generator-machine-maker.
I wonder if we have any third world dictators here.
Third world? Pffft. Third world's too easy. Anyone who doesn't at least have a credible plan to become the dictator of one of the top five nations doesn't need to be GMing.
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One thing I like about the internet is that you get the most eclectic mixtures of people. Every once in a while someone just suddenly turns out to be an antimatter-generator-machine-maker.
I'm a technician at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory... If the Laboratory was the Death Star, I'd be one of the guys in the big, black helmets who pulls the lever to shoot the super-laser. If it was the starship Enterprise, I'd be one of the guys with the red shirts down in the engine room with Scotty.
My standard username is a big clue, for those who know the lingo.
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One thing I like about the internet is that you get the most eclectic mixtures of people. Every once in a while someone just suddenly turns out to be an antimatter-generator-machine-maker.
I wonder if we have any third world dictators here.
Apparently there is a vacancy in Libya at the moment.
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I wonder if we have any third world dictators here.
Is Supervillain close enough? ;)
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Is Supervillain close enough? ;)
Only reasonably successful Supervillains.
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Only reasonably successful Supervillains.
Otherwise known as politicians.
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What might an appropriate Catch (looking for a 2-pointer) be for a Totem Warrior (read alternate spin on Lycanthrope, where they can control the frequency of their change) who has bonded a tiger-spirit? Arrows? Spears? I'm thinking along the lines of things historically feared by tigers.
Or perhaps a material like gold?
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things historically feared by tigers.
Fire.
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I'd go with fire. That's a +2 catch if nobody really knows about it.
...and ninjaed. Oh, well.
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Tiger tiger, burning bright? Really?
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How much would a Catch of Sunlight be worth on a Shadow Demon Scion whose powers (including Toughness) only manifest at night?
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How much would a Catch of Sunlight be worth on a Shadow Demon Scion whose powers (including Toughness) only manifest at night?
2+knowledge for Toughness powers
Possibly Human Form with Involuntary Change for the rest