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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: qlawdat on October 17, 2011, 12:49:01 AM
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I am playing in a dimension hopping game (think sliders) using the DFRPG and materials from the dresden resources website. We are playing at the chest deep level. I had an idea for a gun mage, and would love some help. My thoughts so far are that he would take either Ritual (gun mage stuff) or thaumaturgy, and then refinement a few times for enchanted items.. Maybe a few gun related stunts. My thought is that he would have a bunch of spells prepped ahead of time in his bullets, but only a limited about, hence the item route.
I have never made an item based character, so want to make sure my math is correct. If I take ritual I would get 4 enchanted item slots, and assuming a lore of 5 I could make some of these items? Oh, I know that there is a size limitation on items, my GM is allowing me to ignore this for the moment.
A bullet that does a weapon 10 attack would cost 5 enchanted item slots?
A bullet that does a weapon 8 attack vs a zone would cost 5 EI slots?
A bullet that does a defensive ability at a 10 defence would cost 5?
For the above a 10 is the max correct?
Using 1 EI slot I could increase the uses of all of the above to an extra use per session? I am aware that you can take mental stress to get extra uses.
Once again thanks for any help.
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Well, by default magic and tech go together like sparks and gasoline. You'd likely end up dead just trying to make the bullets. But if your GM is fine with it for the campaign, enjoy.
Can't help on the math at the moment. Just ate way too much dinner.
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I was thinking they would be based on old revolvers, and that his magic would not have any negative impact on his guns.
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Doesn't even need to be a revolver. The Colt 1911 has been a reliable pistol for a century and still has derivatives in production.
From what you're describing, you should probably use the potion rules. They make good single use magic items and have been used in a variety of forms in cannon. That said, I'd work out exactly how damage and attack are going to stack (or not) with your GM. Firing the equivalent of Weapon:8+ bullets may be more than he's prepared to allow. Or it may not. :)
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I am working under the impression that I will have normal bullets that do gun damage, and the spells in the form of enchanted items that do whatever they do, no combining them. I would probably be using the Guns skill to hit though. I am mostly a bit hazy on the item creation rules. So any help there would be very welcome.
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I am working under the impression that I will have normal bullets that do gun damage, and the spells in the form of enchanted items that do whatever they do, no combining them. I would probably be using the Guns skill to hit though.
That's kind of the issue - if you're combining normal weapon damage with a spell it can increase combat damage very quickly. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, there are sword - wizard builds that do similar things with weapons. I'm just suggesting you ensure your GM is ready for it. :)
I am mostly a bit hazy on the item creation rules. So any help there would be very welcome.
Here's a quick version of thaumaturgic items rules - and I'm undoubtedly going to leave a few things out. The rules also tend to allow room for interpretation...and argument. ;) - First, enchanted items (and potions are enchanted items) simply store a spell.
- The unenhanced strength cannot exceed your Lore.
- You can increase the number of uses by decreasing the power. You may also spend an item slot to get two more uses of another item. (This makes it cheaper to have a bunch of the same spell than a variety of spells.)
- Specializations and focus items may also be used to increase strength up to twice your Lore.
- You can also increase the power of an effect by spending an item slot (decreasing the number of items available).
- Unlike normal enchanted items, you can use aspects to increase a potion's strength. (Still limited to twice Lore.)
Since bullet launched items are probably going to affect single targets, your choices are somewhat limited. You're also dealing with some spells which will give the victim two defense rolls - one to 'dodge' the bullet (make you miss) and a second to resist the magic (depends on the spell used).
Hope that helps more than it confuses! :)
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I was thinking they would be based on old revolvers, and that his magic would not have any negative impact on his guns.
I wasn't even thinking type of gun. Simply putting an enchanted slug that close to explosives (powder and primer both) would be plenty dangerous. Yeah, a loading machine and the explosives aren't exactly cutting edge tech but even minor mishaps can kill you when you a hopper full of powder right in front of your face.
Could it be done with tech-fouling mortal magic? Probably. Regularly without getting your face blown off? Much less likely.
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I wasn't even thinking type of gun. Simply putting an enchanted slug that close to explosives (powder and primer both) would be plenty dangerous. Yeah, a loading machine and the explosives aren't exactly cutting edge tech but even minor mishaps can kill you when you a hopper full of powder right in front of your face.
Could it be done with tech-fouling mortal magic? Probably. Regularly without getting your face blown off? Much less likely.
Marcone does it in Even Hand. Uses a magic bullet enchanted by Gard to kill a Fomor cantrev. I don't see a problem here.
It'd be best to stat magic bullets as potions; they're one-use, usable by anyone, and can be declared on the fly if need be.
So, yeah, take Ritual as the cheapest non-smashy magic ability out there. That gives you 2 Focus/4 Potion slots. Then take Refinement as many times as you like for additional 2/4 slots.
Say you're playing in Submerged. This can get you a maximum of 16 Focus Item or 32 Potion Slots. You'll probably want to drop a few of those to keep your final Refresh above 1 (or get some gunslinging stunts). Maybe spend a Focus Item slot or two on your gun (or holster, or glove, or hat or something), to make it into a focus for your bullet-potions. Then spend the remaining Potion Slots on stored Evocations and Thaumaturgy, activated when you fire. Stored maneuvers and stored weapon-damage-increases seem most likely for Evocation, though you could also pull off the Wanted bullet-block thing with a stored block. Thaumaturgy could have some other effects (limited by your Lore + whatever bonuses you have + whatever Aspects you declare, remember), but the only one I can think of off the top of my head would be increasing your Guns rating as you fire.
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I've got to agree with this:
It'd be best to stat magic bullets as potions; they're one-use, usable by anyone, and can be declared on the fly if need be.
You could also simply make the gun an Enchanted Item... Normally, it fires ordinary bullets, but on occasion it can be super-charged to fire magical explosive bullets, or whatever.
Another thought is to make a wizard who's a "gun mage", but in more of a gun-fu sort of sense. That is to say, the guns and bullets he shoots are ordinary guns and bullets, but he uses magic to make himself faster and more accurate when shoots.
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Marcone does it in Even Hand. Uses a magic bullet enchanted by Gard to kill a Fomor cantrev. I don't see a problem here.
Mortal practitioners have problems with tech. Gard is an immortal vaklyrie. See it now?
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My GM has said that the guns would work just fine with magic. So that is not an issue. I like the potions idea. So if I had 32 potion slots, how many would I need to spend to make one potion that is a weapon 10? That is where I get confused.
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My GM has said that the guns would work just fine with magic. So that is not an issue. I like the potions idea. So if I had 32 potion slots, how many would I need to spend to make one potion that is a weapon 10? That is where I get confused.
If your Lore is 5, 6 slots. 1 for the 5, then 5 more to add up to 10.
That is, if you don't use Refinement to increase your Crafting Strength.
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My GM has said that the guns would work just fine with magic. So that is not an issue. I like the potions idea. So if I had 32 potion slots, how many would I need to spend to make one potion that is a weapon 10? That is where I get confused.
All clear then, enjoy. EDIT: Wait, 32 potion slots? That's a spell ability and 7 doses of refinement. Can't be done at Chest Deep. Most you could possibly have at Chest Deep is 24.
If your Lore is 5, 6 slots. 1 for the 5, then 5 more to add up to 10.
That is, if you don't use Refinement to increase your Crafting Strength.
And/or a crafting focus item(s).
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I would run it as potions, ignoring the potential bullet weapon damage. Really the fact that the gun allows you to deliver the effect several zones away is advantage enough, and I've had issues with the very sword - wizard build that UmbraLux mentioned. They can get out of hand pretty quickly.
My suggestion would definitely be to take a crafting Focus or two. Each +1 there applies to every potion you make, so if you have a crafting strength +2 focus then you would be making 7 shift potions for only one slot.
You're also dealing with some spells which will give the victim two defense rolls - one to 'dodge' the bullet (make you miss) and a second to resist the magic (depends on the spell used).
Most of the violent spells have only one defense, and that's get the hell out of it's way (athletics). I don't see why this would be different (unless we're getting into some wonky effects at which point as a GM I'd be tempted to just say "Ah, screw it" and just pick one skill for defense).
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I was thinking primarily of Maneuvers. Most of those will probably (I'm sure exceptions are possible) be resisted separately from the bullet itself.
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I can't get Ricochet Rabbit out of my mind. "Good thing I loaded up on my Mallet to the Head bullets!"
If you're too young to get the reference, Don't remind me, I'm Old!:)
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You're also dealing with some spells which will give the victim two defense rolls - one to 'dodge' the bullet (make you miss) and a second to resist the magic (depends on the spell used).
I was thinking primarily of Maneuvers. Most of those will probably (I'm sure exceptions are possible) be resisted separately from the bullet itself.
I don't think so. You're not shooting a weapon:2 bullet that does a magic effect, you are using a magical item that you target with your gun skill. If it is a "maneuver bullet", it wouldn't do any stress at all, just the maneuver. The gun is mostly flavour, except for the part where you can use your gun skill instead of discipline. The gun might be used for the usual weapon:2 attacks like any gun, but not in addition to an enchanted item or potion effect.
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If it is a "maneuver bullet", it wouldn't do any stress at all, just the maneuver. The gun is mostly flavour, except for the part where you can use your gun skill instead of discipline. The gun might be used for the usual weapon:2 attacks like any gun, but not in addition to an enchanted item or potion effect.
It could also be a 'special effect bullet', dealing stress as a weapon:0 while using the potion strength as a maneuver.
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It could also be a 'special effect bullet', dealing stress as a weapon:0 while using the potion strength as a maneuver.
Yes, that would be a possibility, but I really don't like it. I think it is better if the player has to choose between maneuver and attack.
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I don't think so. You're not shooting a weapon:2 bullet that does a magic effect, you are using a magical item that you target with your gun skill. If it is a "maneuver bullet", it wouldn't do any stress at all, just the maneuver. The gun is mostly flavour, except for the part where you can use your gun skill instead of discipline. The gun might be used for the usual weapon:2 attacks like any gun, but not in addition to an enchanted item or potion effect.
From what I've seen on these forums, this is very open to interpretation.
Mechanically, I do prefer the simpler model. However I'm not certain I like the narrative of getting shot with a bullet and Hallucinating (aspect created by a maneuver) with no other effect. I'm also not sure I like the idea of "dodging" a gunshot with Discipline...which is probably what a hallucinatory maneuver would usually be resisted by.
In general, I don't really like weapons as enchanted items. I don't think DFRPG is built to accomplish it very well. That said, it is possible. You simply need to choose between simple mechanics or narrative harmony.
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Mechanically, I do prefer the simpler model. However I'm not certain I like the narrative of getting shot with a bullet and Hallucinating (aspect created by a maneuver) with no other effect. I'm also not sure I like the idea of "dodging" a gunshot with Discipline...which is probably what a hallucinatory maneuver would usually be resisted by.
Obviously the bullet 'dissolves' in midair, and the target is instead struck by a magical spell-construct which then goes to work, inducing hallucinations.
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My inclination would be to say that either defense is appropriate. If they get out of the way then there's no reason for them to resist the effect, and if they resist then there's no other effect, so there's no reason for them to dodge. While the attack defines the defense, there's no reason why there couldn't be several different ways for the defense to function (just as there are several different ways to defend against a weapon or fists).
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Obviously the bullet 'dissolves' in midair, and the target is instead struck by a magical spell-construct which then goes to work, inducing hallucinations.
So spells dissolve lead? How could I have missed that?! ;)
I agree with your meaning - you can explain it away. The explanations all tend to boil down to fiat though. Not as elegant a solution as I'd like to find.
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I'm on Haru's side here. The gun is just fluff, making the effect weaker because the player decides to flavour it as bullet-based strikes me as awful.
Hexing shouldn't be a problem. It's just compels, and compels are not a bad thing.
As for the actual question of the thread, listen to computerking. His answer is correct, and if you care at all about optimization you should follow his afterthought and boost your Crafting strength.
PS: Be careful with the balance here; Crafting is possibly the most powerful thing in this game. Weapon 10 bullets and 10 shift maneuvers are impressive, but roughly on par with an equivalent amount of Refresh spent on other stunts and powers. The real worry is blocks and Thaumaturgy: a 10-shift version of Harry's coat can make a character incredibly hard to hurt while a 10-shift Thaumaturgical skill replacement can make other characters obsolete. And 10 shifts of Orbius can convince me to firebomb your house.
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Mortal practitioners have problems with tech. Gard is an immortal vaklyrie. See it now?
Lifespan doesn't play into it; it's free will that matters, something mortals have in abundance. I personally doubt that Gard lacks it.
Consider also that she offers Murphy (a Pure Mortal) a job as a valkyrie. It's possible that becoming one involves losing your free will, but we simply don't know enough to say for sure.
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I don't think that dormant enchanted items cause shortout in mechanical equipment. It is the friction between free will and a mortal's magical power that causes "mana static", something not present in mindless objects, particularly those that are usable by anyone. Until the bullet goes off (and perhaps even after that point), machines will be unaffected by its magical potential (or release). Bullets are (with a few exceptions, generally either deliberate or shoddily-made, neither of which are a concern here) not damaged by the firing of the gun; they are pushed out by compressed gas, not the explosion that compresses it. Any carved runes or painted symbols or stored magical energies should be just fine right up until it hits some sucker 'twixt the eyes. Or turns into a demon mid-shot. Or explodes into a rainbow burst of magical energy, or what have you.
So yeah. If you do Maneuvers with Guns, your opponent can try to resist with Athletics or another, more appropriate skill (depending on whether they dodge the bullet or take its "effect" head on).
Spend a least few item slots on turning something into a crafting focus item for your "potions". It really is a good investment.
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Of note all of this talk about guns and hexing is moot. For one qlawdat has clarified several times that the GM is ok with this concept. For two they aren't even playing in the same universe. It's possible that in this other universe there is no hexing, or that hexing effects cats and dogs. All of that is kinda up to qlawdat's GM isn't it?
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as to the dodge vs resist the way id do it is with 2 rolls for the defender. Id have them make an athletics vs your guns to get out of the way of the bullet, thus never being effected by the spell. If the bullet hits then id have them make a resist roll vs the spell (potion str). Endurance vs str for spells like fireball, discipline vs str for hallucinations, conviction vs str for mind control (If your a Law Breaker), ect ect. That way they can dodge the bullet itself and still have a chance to reduce the damage if actually hit by it. That would help in my game to reduce the damage down to a more manageable amount. Of course it could also skyrocket it if the resisting character has a low resist roll but that is no different then if a wizard uses a 8 refresh lighting bolt vs a character with no endurence... there gonna do a lot of damage. I'd also make you spend time in character building your potion bullets... of course the ones in creation are free but Id make you build the reloads. Also a failed roll might not mean that you dont create one. It might be a dud or a backfiring bullet... the compel options are very interesting that way.
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Of note all of this talk about guns and hexing is moot. For one qlawdat has clarified several times that the GM is ok with this concept. For two they aren't even playing in the same universe. It's possible that in this other universe there is no hexing, or that hexing effects cats and dogs. All of that is kinda up to qlawdat's GM isn't it?
Yes. Thank you. My GM does not care about any hexing happening to my guns. They are made specifically for gun magery, and are immune to hexing.
as to the dodge vs resist the way id do it is with 2 rolls for the defender. Id have them make an athletics vs your guns to get out of the way of the bullet, thus never being effected by the spell. If the bullet hits then id have them make a resist roll vs the spell (potion str). Endurance vs str for spells like fireball, discipline vs str for hallucinations, conviction vs str for mind control (If your a Law Breaker), ect ect. That way they can dodge the bullet itself and still have a chance to reduce the damage if actually hit by it. That would help in my game to reduce the damage down to a more manageable amount. Of course it could also skyrocket it if the resisting character has a low resist roll but that is no different then if a wizard uses a 8 refresh lighting bolt vs a character with no endurence... there gonna do a lot of damage. I'd also make you spend time in character building your potion bullets... of course the ones in creation are free but Id make you build the reloads. Also a failed roll might not mean that you dont create one. It might be a dud or a backfiring bullet... the compel options are very interesting that way.
Having the target roll twice seems excessive. The gun will fire the prepped spell/potion, but once the spell leaves the gun it will function exactly the same as the spell or potion. I do not want to be punished for having an idea.
I'm on Haru's side here. The gun is just fluff, making the effect weaker because the player decides to flavour it as bullet-based strikes me as awful.
Hexing shouldn't be a problem. It's just compels, and compels are not a bad thing.
As for the actual question of the thread, listen to computerking. His answer is correct, and if you care at all about optimization you should follow his afterthought and boost your Crafting strength.
PS: Be careful with the balance here; Crafting is possibly the most powerful thing in this game. Weapon 10 bullets and 10 shift maneuvers are impressive, but roughly on par with an equivalent amount of Refresh spent on other stunts and powers. The real worry is blocks and Thaumaturgy: a 10-shift version of Harry's coat can make a character incredibly hard to hurt while a 10-shift Thaumaturgical skill replacement can make other characters obsolete. And 10 shifts of Orbius can convince me to firebomb your house.
I didn't know you could use the Thaumaturgy to replace other skills. Interesting. I had also skipped the Orbius skill, and dear god is that powerful. Sheesh.
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Having the target roll twice seems excessive. The gun will fire the prepped spell/potion, but once the spell leaves the gun it will function exactly the same as the spell or potion. I do not want to be punished for having an idea.
I misunderstood the idea here... my apologies I thought the gun still fired bullets that would damage and then the spell went off... if the gun only fires the spell then id have 1 roll to resist the spell.
Also to the idea of Hexing if the GM running the game had an issue with it, which he doesn't, the easy fix is to make the gun an enchanted item. Then it is magic that only appears to be tech, but is actually a magical item in a sense.
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I had also skipped the Orbius skill, and dear god is that powerful. Sheesh.
Not as much as you'd think. I mean anyone can counter it with a hastily drawn and invoked circle in one exchange. Even Plain Mortals if they've been taught how. That's why I don't have as much problem as some with DoT spells.
Orbius cast at anyone with knowledge of circles is going to cost like an eight shift spell, be resisted like a three shift spell, and can be neutralized with no stress being taken the very next exchange. It's only really good for mooks and beings that can't make a circle for whatever reason.
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Not as much as you'd think. I mean anyone can counter it with a hastily drawn and invoked circle in one exchange. Even Plain Mortals if they've been taught how. That's why I don't have as much problem as some with DoT spells.
Orbius cast at anyone with knowledge of circles is going to cost like an eight shift spell, be resisted like a three shift spell, and can be neutralized with no stress being taken the very next exchange. It's only really good for mooks and beings that can't make a circle for whatever reason.
The above depends rather heavily on how you choose to represent circles mechanically.
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True, it is a pretty vague area.
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I'm not even sure if that works thematically. Once the Orbius-thing is on your face, I'm not sure that anything needs to cross from the caster to you.
Also, being able to spend your action to force someone else to spend their action means you more or less automatically win when you outnumber your opponents.
A valiant attempt to nerf Orbius, but probably not a successful one.
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Pretty sure it does. As described as a Spirit evocation, it sounds like it's either NN matter or a force effect that's essentially the same thing rather than something yoinked out of the environment. Summoned NN matter goes poof when caught in a circle other than one it was summoned into.