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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Hadeshorn on September 22, 2011, 07:50:43 PM

Title: Black Court Newb
Post by: Hadeshorn on September 22, 2011, 07:50:43 PM
So, there's all kinds of stuff for making Red Court Infected or White Court Virgins but what about a newly made Black Court vamp?  I know they are generally considered evil but couldn't one theoretically turn from the dark side?

Also, what are the collective's thoughts on say a Red Court Infected Changeling or a White Court Changeling (meaning the offspring of a White Court Vamp and one of the Sidhe).  I was considering the idea of a House Malvora breeding with a Hob.  That way they would have the Cloak of Shadows and Myrk powers to assist in creating all kinds of delicious fear to feed off of.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Quantus on September 22, 2011, 08:25:53 PM
Well, the Black Court are essentially a breed of crazy powerful zombie, and are definitely undead, so its hard to say.  To my knowledge Reds are considered irrevocably evil once they turn largely because they loose their soul completely, and thus are more of a monster with the body and memories of the original.  Whites by contrast retain a soul, and are born as a half-human, half-demon, and basically a just a type of changling that breeds true. 

GS Spoiler: 
(click to show/hide)

The thing about a Changeling is that (as per WOJ) eventually they all make a Choice, either consciously or unconsciously, and become either mortal or not, so sitting on the fence too long may not be possible.  That being said, Drakula was a changeling (or at least the son of one) who ran off to become a Black Court as "teenage rebellion"  so mixing may be possible for Blacks at least.  Who knows on reds, but its kinda moot now :P
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 22, 2011, 08:31:27 PM
Pretty sure it's in the RAW that BC vamps never have free will but I can't be bothered to find out where at the moment.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Drulinda on September 22, 2011, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Hadeshorn on September 22, 2011, 07:50:43 PM
So, there's all kinds of stuff for making Red Court Infected or White Court Virgins but what about a newly made Black Court vamp?  I know they are generally considered evil but couldn't one theoretically turn from the dark side?

When asked at bitten by books abt whether a blampires capable of feeling anything towards someone they knew in life the response i got was that its possible for a blampire to feel something for those they cared about in life but those feelings wouldnt really motivate it towards a given behaviour, unless theres a self interested motive the blampire will eat when hungry.....But thats under normal circumstances, i think you could probably have a black courter who has a character aspect like 'Cursed with an Conscience' or 'Loyal'.
Or make it so that your black court newbie is really ticked that they were forced over to serve the forces of  darkness and start helping out the other side for vengence, Ive thought of a BCV character like that who used to be a warden. With some imagination you can have alot of fun with your monster characters!

Given how the late aurora was affected its hinted that spending time with mortals can have an affect on a beings nature.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 23, 2011, 04:40:56 AM
Changeling vamps sound fine to me. I don't care about the magic science behind this stuff.

But BCVs are by all indications total monsters. And there seems to be no intermediate stage between human and BCV. So they probably can't turn to good unless plot.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 23, 2011, 05:39:37 AM
Quote from: Quantus on September 22, 2011, 08:25:53 PM
The thing about a Changeling is that (as per WOJ) eventually they all make a Choice, either consciously or unconsciously, and become either mortal or not, so sitting on the fence too long may not be possible.

That's true for Changelings, but not scions.  All Changelings are scions but not all scions are Changelings.  Each type of scion is its own "type" while some might face a choice, or type of choice, I'd say that not all (and maybe not most) do.

Drakula was a scion, and perhaps his father had the power to transform him from a walking corpse (i.e. black court member) to something else.

Richard
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 23, 2011, 06:38:17 AM
Quote from: Hadeshorn on September 22, 2011, 07:50:43 PM
So, there's all kinds of stuff for making Red Court Infected or White Court Virgins but what about a newly made Black Court vamp?  I know they are generally considered evil but couldn't one theoretically turn from the dark side?

Sorry - missed this part of the question.

The best example we have of newly made Black Court Vampires is in the short story It's My Birthday Too, which shows:
Normal guy - incredibly fast take down (call it a one strike kill) - a new Black Court Vampire.  All it happening in minutes.  Maybe 3 minutes at most.

The new vampires, well, they followed their Master's Orders.  That was about it.

So maybe a Master Black Court Vampire could have some type of choice, but not the average member of that court - and it seems that you're either made a Master or you're not.  And those Masters - they are scary even when young.  A Red Court vampire seems to take a while to power up (Bianca spent decades building her power) but BC Masters - it looks like they are kick ass when they are newly made - say a year or less to get real power.

Richard
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: admiralducksauce on September 23, 2011, 11:22:26 AM
Quote
And there seems to be no intermediate stage between human and BCV.

It's called "corpse".   ;D

And if it worked for a given game's premise, I'd allow a BCV PC, but it'd really have to match the game (and the group, of course).  A BCV is just a collection of powers, same as a WCV or a wizard.  A PC BCV just needs to have at least 1 positive Refresh and the reason why is the player's problem.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Belial666 on September 23, 2011, 03:21:45 PM
Do remember that the laws and classifications of magic and the supernatural are part of the natural order  which the supernatural belongs to. What can be done if you're willing to violate the natural order is horribly interesting. For example, it IS possible to anchor a soul to the world of the living. It IS possible to bind that soul into a body so they control it and sort-of live again. It IS possible to violate the laws of Nature to have a faerie Lady behave both irrationally and again the fundamental order of the universe. It is possible to do pretty much everything.


The question is, who are you willing to be sponsored by in order to do the above. Certain higher powers cougharchangelscougholdonescough can flat out violate laws and Laws and change stuff when they want to. It's your jobto convince them.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Hadeshorn on September 23, 2011, 04:19:57 PM
While it is true that the RC are essentially gone, GS hints that there might still be a few hiding out because they were simply too unimportant to matter in terms of the spell.

Theory: You have a Changeling that has yet to make the choice to turn full Fae or remain mortal, thus counting as both and neither at the same time.  Said Changeling then gets "turned" by a member of the RC pre-Changes.  Having not yet drank blood or made "the Choice" this being now counts as mortal, Sidhe and RC Vamp.  Since there are a plethora of very old and very powerful laws and what-not that govern various supernatural entities, could said being have avoided the events of Changes due to some sort of protection via the Sidhe?  Also, say it makes the choice to go full Sidhe, would it retain any of it's vampiric powers? 
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Clotho19 on September 23, 2011, 04:33:33 PM
Quote
That's true for Changelings, but not scions.  All Changelings are scions but not all scions are Changelings.  Each type of scion is its own "type" while some might face a choice, or type of choice, I'd say that not all (and maybe not most) do.

Techinally if we are going by cannon, In one of the WOJ, jim butcher said that scions have to make a choice as well, just like changelings. I can't it at the moment, i know it was one of the more recent ones, as it was a question he was asked post GS
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: bobjob on September 23, 2011, 04:39:29 PM
Quote from: Drulinda on September 22, 2011, 09:15:17 PM
Ive thought of a BCV character like that who used to be a warden.

I created a blamphire villain who used to be a Warden of the White Council a few hundred years ago before being taken. He still  has his Warden Sword. Mix that with his incredible strength for some very, very serious damage in a physical bout.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 23, 2011, 05:31:11 PM
Quote from: Clotho19 on September 23, 2011, 04:33:33 PM
Techinally if we are going by cannon, In one of the WOJ, jim butcher said that scions have to make a choice as well, just like changelings. I can't it at the moment, i know it was one of the more recent ones, as it was a question he was asked post GS

I haven't seen that one.  Hmmm, now I'm wondering if the Keeper of the WoJ threads will parachute into this discussion and post a link to it.  He's done it before (and often searches on the term WoJ) so might do it again.

But in the RAW there's nothing in the game that gives Scions a choice.  Then again, if Jim says they get a choice I'm sure the game will change to map to Jim's world.

Richard
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: polkaneverdies on September 23, 2011, 07:04:13 PM
???

***New Update***

2011 Bitten by Books Q&A
??

Does Kincaid have the ability to “choose” like Faerie changelings (i.e Meryl/Fix/Lily)?”
All scions do, though if they never twig to the fact that they ARE a scion, it’s their actions that make the Choice for them. Kincaid made his Choice a long, long time ago


Link leads to q and a with a lot of spoilers

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg1221400.html#msg1221400

Edited to warn about spoilers (thanks richard)
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 23, 2011, 07:21:01 PM
Oh my...  Oh the beautiful things he says...

The link points to major spoilers for books, but if you've read them he says soooooo much.....  Just saying that she was in the book explains what the Blah was....

Richard
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Drulinda on September 23, 2011, 10:37:52 PM
Quote from: bobjob on September 23, 2011, 04:39:29 PM
I created a blamphire villain who used to be a Warden of the White Council a few hundred years ago before being taken. He still  has his Warden Sword. Mix that with his incredible strength for some very, very serious damage in a physical bout.
Nice, mines a two year old who got turned during the vamp war when the black court gave some limited assistance as a gesture of good will to the reds. She had her sword taken away, but shes got a genius IQ, serious talent for earth magic and dose not get along with others of her kind including especially Grama Mavra. If i ever get around to playing her she'll definatley be interesting.
Title: Re: Black Court Newb
Post by: Drulinda on September 24, 2011, 03:34:02 AM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on September 23, 2011, 06:38:17 AM
The new vampires, well, they followed their Master's Orders.  That was about it.

Richard
To be fair i think two of the reasons for their lack independence can be A) just became another species which is probably a bit confusing at first B) their master the real drulinda threatened to rip up that one newb for asking a question and throw him into lake michigan.

Not saying they have as much of a mind left as a Master but it might not be unconceivable for a non-master to make some kind of choice for self gain. Just less likely.