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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Guldor on September 21, 2011, 08:08:41 AM

Title: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Guldor on September 21, 2011, 08:08:41 AM: We now start a new gaming group (with people I play with like forever) and one of them will play an ectomancer. I already told him that Necromancy would bring up the White Council and that he already met a warden, which told him very clearly what he is allowed to do and what not. All three players don`t know the books (and only one the TV series) and so I have to explain a lot of the Dresdenverse to them. But they are unbiased, so that will be a big merit.
When we made characters the ectomancer player was already rambling about creating undead and stuff like that and I think this might be great thing to see were this may lead storywise. But I have big problems fpr myself to define, where the borders of true necromancy are. As I understand it, it is forbidden, to contact or summon unwilling dead. Ok so far. Ghost are something entirely different because they are only imprints of the dead.
So my first question: Is it black magic if you summon and bind a ghost as some kind of bodyguard or fighter. In OW the spirit warrior (don´t remimber the right term for them right now) is described as normally used by necromancers. Might be cruel to use ghosts that way but is it really a violation of the law? And if it is not I would still like to stain the ectomancer when he would doing it the whole time. There might be no soul but like faeries ghosts have more or less real feeling and if you force them to "die" for you is quite not very friendly.
My second question: Why is it a violation of the fith law to create zombies. Same as for ghost warriors: It is sick like hell perhabs but you use long dead bodies and bind some random spirit to it (By the way it is never explained what these spirits are) and then you have some kind of construct. And building constructs is normally no problem as I see it. Or are you summoning the real dead soul of the former body owner? Or are you using the might of the death of that person? Then perhaps I would understand the problem....
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Lanodantheon on September 21, 2011, 09:03:20 AM: Before proceeding, I recommend rereading Dead Beat because Harry goes over all of this in that book. But, since your group is bookless, I'll sum up.

The Fifth Law of Magic: Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond The Borders of Life

Answer of the first question: It's okay to summon a Ghost, but binding it against its will is Necromancy.

If the Ghost shows up and decides to do stuff for you on its own, there's no problem. If you use Magic to force them to do it, it's different.

The only other exception is the binding of Ghosts that are not human such as insects and animals. The is a major plot point of Dead Beat. But even raising animals is a grey area because it's Necromancy.

The answer to the second is much the same: You are going against the natural order by mucking around with dead things. A corpse should be dead, but instead you are using magic to take something naturally dead and get it to go against that natural order by running around again. To answer the corallary question, no you are not summoning the dead thing's eternal soul, just an Animus, a spark of life reflection of energy of it from the Nevernever, which is not the same.

By the book, raising Human Zombies is Necromancy. Lawbreaker instantly.

Raising Non-Human Zombies isn't.

In the Dresdenverse, "Spirit" can refer to either a Ghost (A fossil-like psychic remnant of a Mortal life) or to one of the many incorporeal denizens of the Nevernever like Bob the Skull. Bob isn't a ghost, he's a creature composed of energies of the Nevernever.

In Death Masks, Harry summoned a Loa and used a Cabbage Patch into a "Homonculus" a vessel for the spirit for the sake of doing business with it. Harry was supposed to use a dead body...but he didn't have one so he used a doll.

If your Ectomancer wanted to summon "Ghost Warriors", he couldn't bind them against their will to protect him. He could however summon the ancient warriors up and convince them to protect him on their own, which is always fun to roleplay.

If you were to call up and bind a Spirit like Bob, then it's not Necromancy, it's Enthrallment, which isanother Law entirely. This also can be gotten around by merely summoning the Spirit with Magic, prepping the vessel with magic, but convincing the spirit to act on its own.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: UmbraLux on September 21, 2011, 12:46:17 PM: Given the events in Ghost Story, I don't see a problem with binding an existing ghost. Creating one may be a different story...

As for zombies violating the 5th law - the trappings behind it tend to involve using a piece of the creature's / victim's soul as an animating force. Presumably you could avoid that issue if you were able to use some other animating force...though convincing a warden you weren't violating the law would be another issue entirely. ;)
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 21, 2011, 01:37:47 PM: Here's my take on it. Human body, soul, or spirit... If you call any of the above back from having a nice, kicked-back, restful death and have it moving around the mortal world again, you broke the Law.

Ghosts* are not the dead people they look like, so you can monkey with them to your heart's content.

That's for the Lawbreaker power. The Wardens, on the other hand, tend to go for a 'decapitate first, ask questions never' approach. Especially if the name Kemmler is brought up even in passing.

*Not all ghosts are created equal but the vast majority are as far as anyone knows.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Quantus on September 21, 2011, 04:02:01 PM: There are two separate question regarding necromancy and the law. Necromancy uses a specific energy that is fundamentally different from the normal magic that wizards, fae etc use (and is what Blacks and presumably reds used). It is sorrupting by nature, and is generally frowned upon. A separate issue is the Legality of its use, as defined by the 5th Law. The Laws themselves have a certain amount of leeway and grey area in them by nature, which harry has used to get by in the past. His summoning Sue was very much Necromancy, it just fell into the loophole of not being targeted at a human, which was a pretty thin defense, but they let it fly in the face of the Kemmlerites and the Darkhallow as a nessesary evil. If a warlock showed up that had a pack of zombie dogs running around doing his bidding (and the council had the time to spare) I dont think there's much chance he'd keep his head for long. Its the same with killing via magic in self defence: its still very much a violation of the Law, but the circumstances allowed for the council to impose a lesser sentence.

Regarding the line between Necromancy and Ectomancy, Its a grey, grey area. Personally, I think some of what Mort has done, especialy in GS, crosses teh line, whihc is why he keeps his head down so much around the council. The line I would draw for a game would basically be a social one. Ectomancy allows you to talk to existing ghosts, probably to track them, and if they are willing you can apparently get them to loan you a certain amount of their skill/power/memory. Anything that forces them to act for you, consumes power directly from them, or results in a physical form like a zombie, materialized spirit (which only crazed ghosts do anyway), etc. would be crossing over into necromancy, if not actually violating the Law. If you keep up the need for a social interaction with the ghost wherein you convince them to help you based on their own choice, knowledge, and/or perspective), then I think you can duck under the Necromancy issue. Basically keep them in the relm of willing allies, not slaves.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Belial666 on September 21, 2011, 05:24:26 PM: A few things;

1) Normal magic is the power of Life, the energy that comes from the will and emotions of all living things and the Order of the Universe. The act of using that power to violate its own source -Life and the order of things- in order to perform acts that create beings without emotions or a will of their own is, in the words of a character of mine, "so dense that it has its own event horizon".

2) Animals, unlike human beings, don't have developed free will because they lack much of the self-awareness required. So raising animals from the grave is half as violating as raising dead humans. It is still necromancy but less against the natural order than a full-blown human zombie.

3) Ghosts are imprints of the passing of humans, not actual humans. However, they are still mostly sapient creatures. Binding them is not against the natural order BUT using them to animate dead bodies is. You could use them to animate statues of stone/clay/metal if you wanted to remain legal; that's how Golems are made.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: sinker on September 21, 2011, 05:52:54 PM: Quote from: Lanodantheon on September 21, 2011, 09:03:20 AM
If you were to call up and bind a Spirit like Bob, then it's not Necromancy, it's Enthrallment, which isanother Law entirely. This also can be gotten around by merely summoning the Spirit with Magic, prepping the vessel with magic, but convincing the spirit to act on its own.

Quick aside, the first book establishes that the fourth law (and almost all of the laws for that matter) doesn't count for non-humans. So enthrall away for spirits and creatures.

My thought is that either ghosts don't count for the fourth and fifth laws or Mort is a dirty dirty lawbreaker, and since Harry had absolutely no response to what Mort was doing (he is still a warden and has always had some kind of response to lawbreaking around him) my inclination would be to say they don't count.

Personally the way I figure it is that with a zombie you are using a dead body. That dead body is a link to the person who used to be inhabiting it. What then is the easiest way to animate it again?

Additionally Quantus is right about necromantic energy being different from normal magic.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Becq on September 21, 2011, 09:38:25 PM: What breaks the Fifth Law apears to be summarized as follows, from what I see in the RAW:
1) Any use of the power of death in a spell (so draining energy from a ghost to power a spell, for example)
2) Any attempt to re-combine a mortal soul with its body.

* Using magic to animate a corpse like a marionette is fine. Harry did this with a T-Rex.
* Talking with, interracting with, and otherwise manipulate ghosts short of drawing power from them is ok. Morty did this, up to and including outright coercion.
* The form of Zombie creation done in Dead Beat (if I'm recalling correctly) was *bad* because the Necromancer was killing the victim, then trapping its soul in the dead body in a mockery of life. In some ways, this is maybe more of a 4th Law violation.
* Summoning up souls of the dead so that you can suck them dry and turn yourself into a god is likely not to earn you brownie points in the Warden's Club.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 21, 2011, 10:45:05 PM: Quote from: Becq on September 21, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
* Using magic to animate a corpse like a marionette is fine. Harry did this with a T-Rex.

Not even remotely fine. There's a very good chance he would have lost his head that night if it hadn't been necessary to use Sue to get to where the Darkhallow was being performed.

Quote from: Becq on September 21, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
* The form of Zombie creation done in Dead Beat (if I'm recalling correctly) was *bad* because the Necromancer was killing the victim, then trapping its soul in the dead body in a mockery of life. In some ways, this is maybe more of a 4th Law violation.

As far as I can recall, only one of the zombies in DB was a person that was alive when the necromancers arrived in town, Phil. The rest were either recently or very non-recently dead.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Silverblaze on September 22, 2011, 12:39:38 AM: Law talk is very convoluted.
I'm going to give my opinion on the matter, I won't call it fact, because it isn't.

1. Human/spellcaster(human)/KOC/in some cases werewolves/changelings/ and likely lycanthropes should not be forced to do anything with magic, even their souls. (Ghosts are different...apperently it is a grey area and accepted unless youare on thin ice)

2. Monsters (anything other than what I listed above) - free reign (aside from going against hte flow of time, or seeking outside knowledge/power)

3. Animals - the white council may care, but they sure don't seem like it: grey area here too.

4. Zombies - see #1 and #2 and #3.

Wardens are jerks, albeit because there is a fine line between grey areas and Warlocks. Some may be more lenient. I personally think if the lawbreaker stunt is an instance death sentence in a game (at least for the first offense [depending on circumstances...of course])... the game is depriving itself of role playing potential and likely a smidgen too strict. (notice i said smidgen, not ignore laws or consequences)
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 07:26:21 AM: Very interesting discussion! It seems to me, that especially concerning ghosts, the opinions are very varied.

Quote from: sinker on September 21, 2011, 05:52:54 PM

Personally the way I figure it is that with a zombie you are using a dead body. That dead body is a link to the person who used to be inhabiting it.

Additionally Quantus is right about necromantic energy being different from normal magic.

I think for me this is the main argument against creating zombies. The body must be a really strong link to the soul of the former owner of the body. So by giving the body false life, you are disturbing the dead. And there is the lawbreaking. Since animals have no souls (?) it might be not good manners to raise them, but you don´t play around with some souls.

The matter on ghosts is a lot more complicated. If it has no soul it seems to be no problem to force them to do something with magic. Of course, to state it again, it´s morally really problematic to do so, but form the point of view of the white council it shouldn´t be such a big deal. (When Harry enthralls a fae Morgan is not happy but can´t do anything about it: @Lanodantheon: I am reading the books in the moment but my gaming group don´t know them :-) In the moment I am reading White Night so Dead Beat is done :-)) But still I have the feeling that raising animal zombies and forcing ghosts into fighting frenzies SHOULD leave a small stain on the wizards soul. Not quite enough for a lawbreaking but still.

I have thought about it and have come up with some kind of houserule. Maybe you people are interested in it.

Example 1: Wizard A is creating a big ugly zombie to beat up an enemy of him. He now gets his lawbreaking stunt and thats it, because there is no leeway.

Example 2: Wizard B is forcing a ghost to beat up an enemy of him. Since the ghost has no soul it´s not really a lawbreaking, but you also enthrall it and perhaps a part of the spell is using a tiny bit of death magic. As a GM I would state that he is about to walk a darker path and therefore his soul maybe stained a little bit. To simulate this in game terms: The GM rolls an attack with a desired strength. Lets say the GM thinks this is a minor staining and he sets a strength of 4. He rolls a 2 and therefore the attack has got as power of 6. The wizard may use his conviction (because he might believe it was necessary to send the ghost and for the greater good and so on) and his roll results in a 4. Therefore he got two shifts form the attack. This shifts are used to open up the stress track necromancy (or vice versa for another not quite lawbreaking). Perhaps it could be of the same length as the mental stress track, but it won´t clear as fast. Maybe you may roll conviction against stress +2 or something to remove one point of stress every minor milestone. When the stress track is full you get your lawbreaking stunt.

This seems to be a bit complicated, I know. But I don´t like to see things only black and white. Perhaps the white council does this a lot. But for roleplaying reasons it might be more interesting to see someone fight with his own conscience, after he has done something very questionable.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Belial666 on September 22, 2011, 10:52:36 AM: Wizard C summons a big bad spirit from the Nevernever and makes a deal/binds it to use its power to animate an army of undead the wizard indirectly controls. Since it's another entity doing the black magic, the wizard gets no Lawbreaker.

OTOH, if the wizard is free, the army of undead is freed and starts spreading like a plague and you got the Black Court all over again.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 12:46:15 PM: Come on Belial, a little bit more creativity :) Since the Wizard has to control the undead and the spirit provides the link to them, the wizards soul is still touched and stained by the death magic. So here is your lawbreaking. And by the way: I try to make it a little bit harder to avoid black magic. I think according to the lore you can do with ghosts what you want. Rulewise there would never be a punishment for the wizard, if he didn`t get caught by some overambitious warden.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: UmbraLux on September 22, 2011, 12:54:18 PM: @ Guldor - I prefer to make Lawbreaking a clear choice rather than basing it on the results of one or more die rolls. In other words, I'll leave the decision to break a law entirely up to the player. Depending on the situation, their alternatives may be limited...but it's their choices which led here... ;D
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 22, 2011, 04:12:14 PM: One thing to remember:
As Harry points out in book three, ghosts aren't spirits, souls, or anything along those lines. They are echoes of someone, not the someone themselves. And that's how the White Council sees things as it enforces this law.

That said, they also sent Wardens to visit and talk with (I.E. threaten) Mort and explain what he could and couldn't do without losing his head.

Richard
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 04:39:25 PM: @Umbralux: Yes of course this would be the ideal solution, if there wouldn´t be a lot of grey areas. From my point of view it isn´t a clear choice, neither for the player nor the GM. I agree that some dice rolls, which decide if you are morally rotten or not are not very elegant. My houserule was more or less some kind of brainstorming. It bothers me a little bit that there is no inbetween for lawbreaking.

For example:
(click to show/hide)
When Harry makes a soulgaze with Molly after he finds out that she has brainwashed her drug addicted friends, he sees that she is not totally stained and can be resued

I would like to simulate this rulewise: There are things that are not really lawbreaking according to the letter of the law, but the should have a small impact on the soul of the wizard.

@Richard Chilton: Yes the white council doesn´t bother. But how cruel is it to force a feeling, intelligent being to fullfill you every wish. When you use magic for this, it should be some kind of "lesser lawbreaking", don´t you think?
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 22, 2011, 04:49:25 PM: Quote from: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 04:39:25 PM
@Richard Chilton: Yes the white council doesn´t bother. But how cruel is it to force a feeling, intelligent being to fullfill you every wish. When you use magic for this, it should be some kind of "lesser lawbreaking", don´t you think?

But Ghosts, as the White Council knows them, aren't "feeling, intelligent being" but echoes of people who were feeling, intelligent being.

There's a huge difference there.

Richard
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: sinker on September 22, 2011, 05:20:22 PM: Quote from: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 07:26:21 AM
Example 2: Wizard B is forcing a ghost to beat up an enemy of him. Since the ghost has no soul it´s not really a lawbreaking, but you also enthrall it and perhaps a part of the spell is using a tiny bit of death magic. As a GM I would state that he is about to walk a darker path and therefore his soul maybe stained a little bit. To simulate this in game terms: The GM rolls an attack with a desired strength. Lets say the GM thinks this is a minor staining and he sets a strength of 4. He rolls a 2 and therefore the attack has got as power of 6. The wizard may use his conviction (because he might believe it was necessary to send the ghost and for the greater good and so on) and his roll results in a 4. Therefore he got two shifts form the attack. This shifts are used to open up the stress track necromancy (or vice versa for another not quite lawbreaking). Perhaps it could be of the same length as the mental stress track, but it won´t clear as fast. Maybe you may roll conviction against stress +2 or something to remove one point of stress every minor milestone. When the stress track is full you get your lawbreaking stunt.

Of note this whole process could be more easily modeled with an attack against the mental stress track. If consequences are inflicted then they would have a lawbreaking theme, and could be invoked/compelled as such.

As for
(click to show/hide)
Molly
she's a lawbreaker, period. So is Harry for that matter. You can have the Lawbreaker power and not be completely crazy, though most of the books point out that it's difficult. It is a constant struggle for them both.

As for ghosts Richard's right as far as the white council's concerned. Ghosts are non-thinking, non-sentient beings. Recent events might imply otherwise (I'm talking about some of the things encountered, not the special circumstances surrounding the whole thing), but we still can't be sure.
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 06:22:44 PM: First on: Thank you all for making productive comments and not yelling around, that my point of view is bullshit :-)

@Richard: Of course ghosts don´t have a soul. From a certain point of view you could argue the have no real feelings are not intelligent. I don´t want to argue about one point: Ghosts have got no soul (perhaps some former musicians...sorry for the joke :-)). But they are imprints of the soul of a former living being at the timepoint of the death of this being. The can´t really evolve, but they (only my idea about it) have feelings. The feelings of the person, who died. Perhaps they simulate the feelings, but they don´t see it this way themselves. For them (and in my opinion ghost must have some kind of self awareness to act like they do in the books) their feelings and thinking is real. And if it´s only a really really good simulation: Where is the difference for the person who treats them like his personal slaves. I know I get kind of philosophic here but for all the Trekkies out there: Thin about Data. His feelings are some kind of simulated but are they therefore not true?

@sinker: Seems so be a good idea to attack mentally amd have some kind of psychic consequence. Will work for me :-)
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 23, 2011, 04:58:49 AM: Quote from: Guldor on September 22, 2011, 06:22:44 PM
First on: Thank you all for making productive comments and not yelling around, that my point of view is bullshit :-)

You're welcome - we're really a polite bunch here. That, and if anyone did cry "bullshit" then he'd better have a good argument to back up his point (and be prepared to change his remarks to something less insulting).

Looking around at some of the other forums, this one seems to need less moderation that some of the others - but if things were to get out of hand I'm sure that the mods would step in. The mods on this board - I've been on countless boards (starting with BBSes) and the mods here are among the best I've ever seen.

Richard
Title: Re: Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?
Post by: Guldor on September 23, 2011, 07:21:06 AM: @Richard: Yes you´re totally right about this forum. In german forums you normally have the same problems with people, who threat you like crap. Some people seem to think they don´t have to be polite, when they are more or less anonymous. This reflects a bad light on those people: They are only polite, if it may reprisals if they aren´t. Here nearly all posters are friendly, constructive and helpful.

So thank you all guys for the discussion. I now have some new points of view and I am sure I and the ectomancer player will work something out regarding the fifth law.