ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: heathd666 on September 11, 2011, 11:13:25 PM

Title: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: heathd666 on September 11, 2011, 11:13:25 PM
Hiya and afternoon/evening/morning depending on your zone

long time lurker with a few questions,

I really enjoy the books of Dresden Files, but I am not sure if I can run FATE so I figured i would post and see whether I can make my mind up. I have ran Savage Worlds for better part of 3 years and before that Palladium Megaverse, Old World of Darkness, Variouse forms of AD+D no 3rd or 4th ed though, Call of Cthulhu, and some 7th Sea and Shadowrun. Been gaming for the better part of 20+ years but I am having some issue with FATE.  I am not sure what it is. I have tried to read the main book Your Story, but I cant seem to make it to the end. I have tried several searches for variouse examples of play and downloaded and listened to podcasts by The walking Eye and Actual People Actual Play, for examples on playing. I guess what I am looking for is some knowledgable help in deciding if DFRPG is right for my group or even for me to try. At this years Gen Con I tried to stop by the open gaming room to try to talk to one of the people from Evil Hat but I missed them and on Sunday the whole family come with me and there was no way I was getting 15 people to stand around while I spent a 1/2 hr talking to one person. Currently I run a group of 9 to 12 people through Deadlands Reloaded a Savage Worlds setting. I dont plan on running that many people through DFRPG but I am not sure what an ideal number of people would be. From what I have gathered DFRPG is more of a story driven engine so this may be my problem as most of the games I have used have alot of crunch to them. Unfortunatly I feel lately I have been doing more of the Roll Playing then the Role Playing. Are there any examples somewhere I could start looking for on the different systems of DFRPG?  I guess I am a more visual sort of guy so I pick up on things alot faster by watching and participating in them than in reading them. I have all of the freebie case files and I think I am going to attempt me and one or two of my children to run through city creation and character creation to get a hang of some of the rules. In the back of the book Your Story are a couple of pages of combined charts are these the most important I will need for the game? I am thinking that Aspects are probably the thing I am having the most problems with understanding. I found a list of Aspects in the forum so I have lots to go off of. Any help with examples of the game play and perphaps character creation? In most of the games I have run its alot of descriptive talking and then some dice rolling but I am not sure about DFRPG. I believe it is more of a story format. Is it as a GM I just fade in do one "Scene" then skip to the next? Sorry for the questions but I appreciate any help sent my way.

sincerely
Heath Delashmit
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Silverblaze on September 11, 2011, 11:50:26 PM
It would best be adapted to Old World of Darkness in my opinion. 

Though I can tell you as a player and GM of most of those systems (I maintain Old WoD is one of my favorites).  FATE works pretty well if you give it a shot and play test it.

Also, kudos to you on not upgrading to D&D 3rd ed. 3.5 or 4th!
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Haru on September 12, 2011, 12:21:39 AM
It is a bit hard to grasp at first, as the game is pretty different from usual rpg games, but that difference is what makes it great, once you get behind the idea.

The most important thing is to change your view of gaming. The fate system doesn't really try to simulate reality, it tries to create a story, an interactive novel, if you will. This is mostly done by aspects. Try to imagine a story. Most authors don't introduce something, unless it is going to be relevant in one way or another. That is pretty much what aspects are about.

I don't really know how to to explain it, because I can't really remember what it was that made me understand the concept of aspects. Keep reading, ask questions, I think it is mostly a learning by doing thing. A list of aspects is not really going to help you that much, because they are extremely versatile. Anything can be an aspect.

Scenes are where interesting things happen. The idea is that anything trivial happens "offscreen", between scenes, because they are considered boring. Again, think of a book, the Dresden Files especially. Trivial things are glossed over in a sentence or two, entire pages are dedicated to single really cool action.

There is a great sample combat, I always like to quote in these cases:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html

Maybe that can help you to get the first confusion sorted out. Creating a sample character for practice is always a good idea, if you like we can run through that together. Maybe you have a character from another system that we can convert to fate, so you have something to compare it to.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Silverblaze on September 12, 2011, 12:46:39 AM
Aspects are a combination of merits and flaws & Nature and Demeanor from White Wolf.

The concept of telling a story isn't odd to me I've run/played most games with my group like the way FATE encourages people to.  That required no change for me.  I always give input to GM's and vice versa.  The story shapes up from there.  I will admit we concentrate on plot and roleplaying more than system in most cases, but we can still get behind hacking up monsters and twinking out munchkin characters on occasion.

I highly encourage people to try this system out.  I play many systems, there is no reason others can't.  It's fun, different, and refreshing...not to mention customizable and fairly easy to house rule.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: zenten on September 12, 2011, 01:29:55 AM
Don't be intimidated by Fate.  It's basically two systems, the Fudge basic more traditional system, and then all the Aspects and Fate point stuff on top of that. Give it a go, make it clear to your players that you're still learning the system and will thus make mistakes, ask questions here, and have fun.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 12, 2011, 01:34:19 AM
Also, kudos to you on not upgrading to D&D 3rd ed. 3.5 or 4th!

Hey, at least 3.x took the mega-uber out of ranger/clerics.  4ed is heresy though for certain.

In the back of the book Your Story are a couple of pages of combined charts are these the most important I will need for the game?

Pretty much.  There aren't really many charts of any sort, those are more cheat-sheet rules summaries to keep you from having to look up the most common bits.

Here's some of the observations I've had on it since I started playing.  It's a very by the seat of your pants type game.  Creativity counts for a lot more than stats and dice rolls do.  Rules lawyers will hate it at first, then they'll figure out that they need a much less sound argument to argue Declarations, Aspect Invocations, Maneuvers, and so on.

It's very easy to forget to use Declarations, Aspects, and Maneuvers if you're coming from a dice and rules-heavy gaming system; right up until you see them used to stomp the complete crap out of a baddie with one action.  When play-testing it, make a point of using all three in a scene or three and see how much of a difference it makes.  You might even run through the same scene twice, once with the players having half a dozen fate points to spend and once with none.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Silverblaze on September 12, 2011, 02:13:00 AM
Hey, at least 3.x took the mega-uber out of ranger/clerics.  4ed is heresy though for certain.

I still prefer 2nd Ed.  I do not hate 3 or 3.X...4th....yes glad we agree on 4th.  I'll leave it at that.  I don't wanna cause derailing or offend anyone.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: TheMouse on September 12, 2011, 02:35:49 AM
The big thing to keep in mind about Fate is that it's not actually terribly out there in terms of game design.

The most basic thing is that you roll your dice, add your trait, then compare that to a difficulty or resisted roll. Everything builds on that. Which is RPG technology straight out of the 70s. (I'm not saying that's bad, mind you.)

Stunts are also pretty easy and well established. They're like feats from D&D. They're also sort of like Merits from oWoD. They give you a bit of a bonus in some way. Very easy.

Powers are just super-Stunts. Don't bother with how you get at the exact point total until later, once you're comfortable with the system. Just accept that they're super-Stunts conceptually. Easy as pie.

Now Aspects. Ooh, big and scary, they are! OK. Not really. They're just things about a character, place, or thing that is narratively true and is given mechanical heft. That's it. You know those yellow pages in the back you mentioned? You know the right hand one that has a little box titled, "Using Aspects"? That's most of your rules.

I mean, there are more rules to Aspects, but those are your basic ones. Those are like learning how to roll to see if you fix your car before learning to roll out a fight. So you learn those few rules (including perhaps a look at the beginning of the Aspects chapter for more clarity) and work with them for a bit. Then you add rules once you're comfortable with those basic ones.

Don't worry about the story aspect (pun!) of the game. That part will take care of itself. Do the char-gen and city setup stuff. Then start the game like you would any other RPG you've ever played. Do Aspect stuff when it seems appropriate, and remind your players to do the same.

Don't concern yourself with aggressively framing scenes or any of the stuff that the story-games crowd is concerned about. If you don't know what this means, then you're frankly better off than if you did know and were paranoid that you were screwing up.

In short: Play the game and have fun. Let the rest sort itself out.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 12, 2011, 03:45:12 AM
Welcome to the forum, Heath.

I honestly don't really understand the whole "story based game" thing myself. But that hasn't given me any trouble playing DFRPG. It's surprisingly crunchy when you get down to it, and the mechanical balance is better than it looks.

And here are the play examples that I’ve found for section four. I want more.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html  (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html)
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-conflict (http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-conflict)
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-magical-fight (http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-magical-fight)
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-social-conflict (http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-social-conflict)
http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-thaumaturgy (http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-thaumaturgy)

If those aren't enough, look at the PbP forum for games being played right now.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 12, 2011, 05:09:52 AM
To be honest I've found that most of the understanding of aspects comes when you see them in action. Don't be afraid to simply run something. I keep recommending Night Fears because it's setting light and easy to get into (we've all been a teen at one time or another... unless you haven't). The book often suggests that you start playing, and then if you discover that something doesn't work (like one of your aspects is less workable than you thought) to simply change it right then. I would simply jump in and explain to everyone that you're still learning as they are and that you'll all figure it out together.

As for aspects they are simply descriptors that one could apply to a situation, person, place or thing. At their most basic they are simply adjectives. If one can be helped by that adjective (Like trying to sneak down a "Dark" alleyway) then one can invoke for a benefit. If one might be hindered by it (Like trying to READ in a "Dark" alleyway) then one may be compelled for some detriment. There are specific benefits and detriments, however at it's core it really is that simple.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Watson on September 12, 2011, 11:01:16 AM
As mentioned above, one the most important things for me, FATE is not trying to simulate the reality, but rather an interesting story, created by the GM and the players together. After I understood that, everything else more or less fell into place.

Another things that has been helpful for me (coming from a 25+ years of Basic Roleplaying/Call of Cthulhu) is that sometimes the player is looking at his character more from a “third person perspective” than “first person perspective” (or at least more than traditional games). What I mean by this is, for instance, consequences and concessions – this is a 100% a choice made by the player (the character is not involved). The player is choosing to accept a consequence or to concede, and thereby controlling the story. That is also why nameless NPC’s do not take consequences – not because they physically can’t take as much hits as the main bad guy, but because they are not really important for the story. When you start to look at the game system in this way, many things will start to get a lot more clear, at least it did so for me. Soon it will be my turn to try to get my players to understand that too…
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: ARedthorn on September 12, 2011, 01:26:24 PM
With only one or two differences, you and I have played in most of the same systems (I've never tooled with 7th sea, and very much enjoy Mutants and Masterminds, which you didn't list)... Fate is the most recent addition to my systems kit, and frankly, so far, my favorite.

As someone else said- DFRPG is a combination of two systems- Fate and Fudge- that work well together. I like them both a LOT- Fudge, because it adds a nearly natural bell-curve to the random element (something very few games even try to do), and Fate because it lets things like character personality and mood and setting affect mechanics (and vice-versa) rather than leaving these elements independent (and often ignored).

I've gone so far as to add Fate (aspects and all the aspect-derived rules) to Mutants and Masterminds, and it's gone beautifully. Just about any system can adopt Fate safely, IMO.

So is it the Fate part of DFRPG, or the Fudge part that's throwing you? Or both?
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Taran on September 12, 2011, 02:02:40 PM
Do it!

I've done d20 systems, almost exclusively, for a long time and it took our group a bit of time to get away from the "I attack this round" that happens in d20 games to really describing combat and using the scenery (represented by aspects) to enhance a battle/scene.  The whole system has really opened my eyes to what can be done with a role-playing game.

Also, Character aspects are a perfect way to set up adventures and the fate point system is basically a mechanic for rail-roading players without actually having to rail-road - or, at the very least, having them feel grumpy for being railroaded.

We've gone back to a d20 Star Wars game and I can't get out of my head ways to "complicate" my characters situation, or think, "gee, a blaster would be useful right now, too bad I can't make a declaration."

I really think that if your group roll-plays more than role-plays then it will be a nice change and, at the very least, it will give them a different outlook on how you can play a game when you go back to other systems.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Pbartender on September 12, 2011, 08:39:47 PM
Here's something that really helped me and my players understand aspects...

Try thinking about them in terms of movie action-heroes.  When you think of any character from an iconic action movie -- Indiana Jones, John McClane, James Bond, etc. -- what are the things that make that character recognizable as that character?  Catch phrases, signature possessions, notable friends, unique personality quirks, etc. are all things that could be aspects for that character.

Han Solo, for example, might have aspects like:

The Millenium Falcon
Chewbacca's Life Debt
"Never Tell Me The Odds."
Imperial Entanglements
"Hokey Religions And Ancient Weapons Are No Match For A Good Blaster At Your Side, Kid."
In It For The Money
Prefers a Straight Fight
A Princess And A Guy Like Me...
"Who's Scruffy Looking?"

It really helped us understand not only how to pick aspects, but also how they get used (generally, they help a hero be better at what they're good at, help him get out of trouble, or help get him into trouble).
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Todjaeger on September 12, 2011, 09:24:42 PM
I first have to say that I understand where people can be coming from, if they don't 'get' the Dresden Files RPG system.  I myself have been playing RPG systems of one sort or another since I started with Frank Mentzer's Red Box D&D Basic edition when it first came out.  From there I moved onto AD&D 1st ed. then 2nd ed. when that came out, then Mechwarrior, Rifts, Twilight 2000, Marvel Superheroes, LoR, MERP, Star Wars (WEG D6 version), and so on...

As one of the playtesters for the game, it was first a bit hard to get used to, since the game does tend to approach RPGs different than many of the games people might be used to playing.  Once you 'get' the DGRPG though, it is really quite easy.

Speaking broadly, there are two basic types of RPG players, there are the roll-players, and then the role-players. 
Generally, the roll-players are interested in fighting/defeating monsters, and looting treasure.  Their gaming concerns will revolve around what they need to roll succeed at a Skill check/challenge, and/or hit & damage a monster.  The current version of Dungeons & Dragons, D&D 4e, is a great example of a game geared towards that sort of play, as it has a very heavy emphasis on tactical combat, with much of the skills and abilities only really having relevance in combat.  In some respects, it almost seems to be like D&D reverting to its origins in Chainmail.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that players who are all about the tactical combat, killing monsters and looting treasure often don't like or understand DFRPG, and don't give it a chance as there is more to it than just combat.

It has been said, and I tend to agree, that the DFRPG is a storytelling RPG, and I feel that's true.  The game is very much story and character-driven, and as such those who can, or like to role-play tend to find DFRPG very enjoyable.

Mechanically, there can be a certain amount of 'crunchiness' to it, but the math is pretty basic and easy.  What needs to be remembered that rolls for success or failure are really only needed when success or failure will advance the story.

If you have a player who insists on their character attempting to steal something every time they go into a place, even a convenience store, that can quickly bog the game down.  Rather then require that every thing rolled, since the event itself doesn't matter, the GM can basically state whether there was success or failure, since stealing a candybar itself doesn't make much difference.

What helps to make the story relevant to the characters, as well as aiding (or hindering) the characters went they attempt something are the Aspects.  The easiest way I've found to think of Aspects, is that they are basic descriptors or catch-phrases about a character's identity, telling a little bit about who or what the character is.  As such, they tend to involve some themes central to a character, rather than inconsequential character information.

An example of an Aspect which would generally not typically matter much would be: Gets Seasick or Gets Airsick.

Honestly, as written neither of those are going to make much day to day difference to a character.

Now, if those Aspects were instead: Seasick shrimp boat captain, or Airline Pilot that gets Airsick, these themes now touch upon some central themes, namely a character's job, or perhaps what used to be their career.  Given that a job/career determines how a character could live and support themselves (and perhaps others) a character would have a great deal of involvement, as well as 'extra' knowledge from related subjects.  Take the current or ex-shrimp boat captain, it could be assumed that they are familiar with boats, shipping, and maritime traffic.  Given that they dealt with shrimp seafood, it could also mean that the character would then have knowledge of the seafood industry and/or marine life (i.e. "Hey, wait a minute, something about those tentacles doesn't look right..." and so on.

The key about Aspects from my perspective, is to have creative ones that can have broad, and/or multiple meanings, with preference given to those that are 'interesting'.

Lastly are some things you need to consider for yourself as well as your group.  If your character encounters a mystery or some sort of puzzle in-game, are you (A) the sort of player that would have your character gather clues while you try and solve it, or are you (B) the sort that prefers to roll dice to solve puzzles?

Also, are you going to be okay if your character or the group has (A) non-combat interactions with everyone they meet, or will you/they be (B) disappointed and/or bored if you character or group goes an entire game session without getting into combat?

If the style of play you or your group prefers is more A than B, then once you understand the difference with Dresden, and I admit it is a subtle one, then I think you'll like it.  If you honestly are more of a B-type gamer, then in my experience you won't enjoy the game as much.

-Cheers
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: heathd666 on September 12, 2011, 09:46:16 PM
Thanks for the replies and the examples, I didnt know about the

 http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/

so I have a feeling I will be there lurking in the shadows.
@ Taran, I do plan on trying it and probably running through one of the casefiles for reference.
@ ARedthorn my only experience with FATE or Fudge is with DFRPG so I have no idea what is causing my confusion
@ Watson Yeah I understand those parts about I guess Mooks (a Savage Worlds name) having not as much of an impact on the story as Wildcards (another Savage Worlds term)
@ sinker yeah I was trying to find a game to just mayby watch for a session or two but have not found any going on here in Indianapolis
@ Sanctaphrax I checked out those examples and although they equations they went through didnt make a whole lot of sense to me I am guessing I need to read the rules a bit more. Im guessing the minor, mild, major consequences are in the book I just need to re read em a bit. I didnt really understand some of the stress box stuff becouse things like putting the X through the middle circle instead of the first one but I am guessing I will pick it up more later.
@ TheMouse and Silverblaze yeap I am figuring it out the Agility plus Attribute thing from OWoD and the similarities with DFRPG
@ The Mighty Buzzard The use of Declarations, Aspects, and Maneuvers are going to take some getting use to
The Gm would describe a darkwarehouse with lots of boxes etc.
Declarations are use you spend a Fate point to say I am using the Dark aspect of the warehouse to add +2 to your stealth role
But then that leaves aspects and thats kinda what I thought Declarations are.
Stunts would be something like Karin Murphys thing with 2 guns
@ zenten I am definitly going to give it a try but I am not sure how most of my current players will like it. If you have ever read Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering  most of my players are Butt Kickers, so I will have alot to explain but first I feel I need to understand it alot better.
@ Haru It will definitly be a different type of game but hopefully one I and my players will enjoy and I always thought that creating a character was a group thing but I will definitly try it solo first to play with the rules.

If I forgot anyone thanks again for all the helpfull advice.

sincerely Heath Delashmit
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: ARedthorn on September 12, 2011, 10:02:12 PM
Quick note on definitions:

Aspects are... aspects. They can be used for a +2 or reroll when they apply, and a Fate Point is spent. If a given aspect hasn't been used before, it can be 'tagged' for free ONCE (no FP cost).

Declarations are one of 3 or 4 ways to CREATE aspects... and the most direct way. A Declaration involves a player paying the GM a Fate Point to (more or less) become GM for a moment- long enough anyway to declare an aspect exists, and you're done. If the GM takes the FP, then that's all there is to it, bargain struck and kept.
Assessments allow a character to use a skill roll to 'discover' aspects that exist already, but that he's unaware of. They can also be used to create an aspect, like a declaration (without the FP cost), but only if the aspect is appropriate or close to one that should probably be there- this is the GM's call.
Maneuvers create an aspect because the character (not player) does something specific to cause it in-game, like turning a bright room dark, by shooting out the lights, or flipping the switch, and almost always requires a skill check (to successfully hit the light bulb, or reach the light switch safely in a gun fight)- only time they aren't required if they're trivial (because anywhere but a gun-fight, making someone roll to flick the light switch is silly, and takes away from the game).
Consequences are aspects that exist because you've taken too much stress to cope, but not enough to lose the conflict... mild are easily recoverable, moderate require some medical/social/psychiatric care (severe burns, emotional trauma), severe require a great deal of time and care (broken bone, PTSD, etc), extreme may never go away (like losing a limb).
But they still all create aspects, and then you use those aspects. (Remember- a freshly created or discovered aspect gets one free use.)

You can use an aspect in 3 ways, really- if it applies: Reroll, +2 bonus, or compel (this is more for the GM than the players, though I've seen them compel eachother).
A Compel is when someone points to a player and says "Hey. You're not playing your character right. If he's such a Loose Canon like it says on your sheet, wouldn't you be shooting your mouth off right now?" "Um... but if I do that, I'm gonna get my ass kicked." Then comes the carrot and stick- if he plays it like a Loose Canon- he gets a fate point... if he refuses, he pays one. It's a lot like oWoD (nWoD for that matter) and gaining willpower if your character stays true to his concept/nature/demeanor/etc... and being able to pay one to break away from it a while (since these respectively reaffirms/undermines their sense of self).
Players can also self-compel, if they're playing well w/o coaxing and the GM didn't notice.

[EDIT: This is all Fate stuff. Anything involving Fate Points or Aspects is part of the Fate system, and just allows things like scenery and personality to affect die rolls.
Fudge is the base system of skills, abilities, and dice rolls... which should be pretty easy to grasp given some practice, given how much experience you have with so many different game systems. It's closest to D20 in the skill+roll vs DC, but with lower skill/die/DC values, and a die roll that produces a bell-curve instead of a flatline. The only other significant differences are Streamlining of rolls (so attack and damage are handled in one roll, reduced by defense and DR), and addition of social and mental combat that follow the exact same rules as physical combat.]

Hope that clears some stuff up...

You can still do some pretty awesome butt-kicking in DFRPG, but the game tries to set things up so players don't have to limit themselves to dungeon grinds- I've never seen a system (even oWoD) handle social conflict as simply or importantly as DF.

If you want to watch a game- there are lots all over the place- and even some play-by-post games on here- it's not quite the same, but may help you out.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Todjaeger on September 12, 2011, 10:28:05 PM
@ The Mighty Buzzard The use of Declarations, Aspects, and Maneuvers are going to take some getting use to
The Gm would describe a darkwarehouse with lots of boxes etc.
Declarations are use you spend a Fate point to say I am using the Dark aspect of the warehouse to add +2 to your stealth role
But then that leaves aspects and thats kinda what I thought Declarations are.
Stunts would be something like Karin Murphys thing with 2 guns

In the Dark Warehouse example, there are several options if the warehouse does have the Aspect: Dark.

If you don't know that the warehouse has the scene Aspect: Dark, then you could spend a Fate point, guess the the Aspect: Dark and invoke the Aspect for a +2 to a roll, or a re-roll.

If you wanted to take some time and make an Assessment (YS115) of the warehouse, you could learn that it has the Aspect: Dark, and once you've done that, you can Tag the Aspect: Dark for a free invocation once, and every use of the Aspect afterwords would require a Fate point.

Now, for Declarations.  There are two options here, the first, from is where the player can spend a Fate point and then declare something about the scene or circumstances is true, assuming the Declaration is acceptable to the GM (YS20).

The second use of Declarations is where the player uses a character's skill to set Aspects on the scene, against with a free Tag for the first use.

Lastly, there are Maneuvers.  These are opposed uses of Skill in a conflict which if successful allow Aspects to be placed on the conflict which can then be Tagged for a free first use to impact the conflict.

Now, any Aspects being created or set for a scene do need to be applicable to the story, other than that though, Declarations, Assessments and Maneuvers should be done all the time as they improve how well players do.

-Cheers

Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: heathd666 on September 12, 2011, 10:28:11 PM
@ Pbartender That makes sense when you put it like that

I am guessing that with all aspects if it is something that helps your character it costs a Fate Point if it is something that hinders your character then you get a Fate Point. Also if I describe a scene in my other example "A dark warehouse cluttered with boxes and debris" since I have already declared these they cant be Tagged by the players correct?

@ Todjaeger I would guess that most of my players are a bit of both of the types both A and B depending upon the situation they would rather work through something with Role Playing but if they are in a hurry they would rather just roll the dice. I definitly have a couple that really enjoy the tactical side of the game but most enjoy both parts I guess. If I remember right when you create a Aspect you should be able to think of 3 quick uses for it in a given situation , at least 1 positive (Aspect) and 1 negative (Compelled)

@ ARedthorn I will have to print those out to try to remember them all. Declarations are basically you spend a Fate Point and wallah if you needed something non game shattering its there. You spend a Fate Point and say "when I first walked in here I saw a book of matches on the table that I could probably use to light this candle" meaning that you used the point to add a book of matches that wasnt there before. Correct?

thanks again
Heath Delashmit
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: TheMouse on September 12, 2011, 10:28:22 PM
Speaking broadly, there are two basic types of RPG players, there are the roll-players, and then the role-players.
False dichotomy alert!

Your enjoyment of assuming a role and playing a game are not a zero sum total. They are merely two measures of things you could enjoy about getting together to play an RPG. The false dichotomy doesn't even account for other gaming agendas.

This particular notion really needs to die in a fire. It's not a useful rubric for ascertaining what things people might like about a game, and it far too easily becomes a judgmental bitch-fest. It has no value except as a tool with which to disparage the play styles of others.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 12, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
Assessments allow a character to use a skill roll to 'discover' aspects that exist already, but that he's unaware of. They can also be used to create an aspect, like a declaration (without the FP cost), but only if the aspect is appropriate or close to one that should probably be there- this is the GM's call.

Actually this is still declaration (or the second part of it is). The difference between assessment and declaration is not a roll or a fate point, it's where the aspect comes from. If the GM has come up with some aspects that are not immediately apparent to the characters then they may be discovered with an assessment. If the player is introducing an aspect (either through the use of a fate point or with a roll) then it's declaration. Finally if the character is introducing an aspect then it's a maneuver. Those are the big differences between those things.

@Heathd666 It really sounds to me that you are having difficulty reading the book. A lot of this is definitely covered pretty well within it's pages (Like stress only filling one box, and not all of the boxes up to that box). I don't necessarily have a solution to that problem, but I'll tell you that if you can push through it then a lot of your questions will likely be answered. Is there someone in your group who is more inclined to sit down and read the book? Maybe they can be your "expert" when you give the game a try.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Todjaeger on September 12, 2011, 10:52:42 PM
It has no value except as a tool with which to disparage the play styles of others.

I don't wish to take the discussion too far off topic, but I did feel it necessary to comment on the above sentence.

From my perspective, there is value in recognizing the preferred style of play that a group of gamers has, and there is nothing disparaging about it.  It just is (or should be) an honest assessment of how a group likes to play.  Once you've recognized what style you or your group likes, then its easy to make sure those expectations are met.  And with that in mind, different systems sometimes lend themselves better to one style of play or another, even within the same genre.

-Cheers
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 13, 2011, 01:38:36 AM
Currently I run a group of 9 to 12 people through Deadlands Reloaded a Savage Worlds setting.

Random aside: I love the Deadlands setting but I just can't get past some of the quirks of savage worlds. Ever tried Deadlands classic?
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Morgan on September 13, 2011, 02:07:37 AM
Since it is one question I haven't seen answered yet I'd say that 3-4 players and a GM is probably the ideal number for a DFRPG or FATE based game. I've played in 2 players and a GM game and that worked but it felt like a stretch. 5-6 players in a game can be done, for me 7 players is my absolute limit and even that would have to be something like a convention game or one shot. But if you are all just learning FATE I would keep the numbers down to 3-4.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: zenten on September 13, 2011, 02:57:54 AM
I have 7 players in my game, but regular attendance isn't required.  4-5 players is more typical for any given session.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 13, 2011, 03:45:21 AM
I think that question is more commonly answered by the GM rather than the game. Most games don't really have a minimum or maximum players. The minimum is usually the number of people the GM feels can propel the story and the maximum usually depends on the number of people the GM can keep straight. Personally I think the sweet spot is between 5 and 7, but I like slightly bigger games.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 13, 2011, 04:04:31 AM
You say you don't understand the stress system. Let me try to explain:

When stress is inflicted to a character, the damaged character marks down their Xth stress box, where X is the amount of stress they took. If the box is full, the character marks down the next unfilled stress box.

When a character is forced to fill in a stress box they don't have, they are taken out. They are knocked unconscious, killed, or whatever the attacker was going for.

If a character wants to, they can absorb stress by taking a consequence. This is normally done to avoid being taken out. A consequence is an aspect, rated mild, moderate, severe, or extreme. Milds absorb two stress, moderates absorb 4, severes absorb 6, and extremes absorb 8. The higher the amount of stress absorbed, the longer the consequence takes to heal. Generally, a character can take 1 consequence of each level, but there are ways to increase the supply.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 13, 2011, 04:22:17 AM
@ ARedthorn I will have to print those out to try to remember them all. Declarations are basically you spend a Fate Point and wallah if you needed something non game shattering its there. You spend a Fate Point and say "when I first walked in here I saw a book of matches on the table that I could probably use to light this candle" meaning that you used the point to add a book of matches that wasnt there before. Correct?

It was covered before but I'll give you the Readers Digest version.  On declarations you can either:
A) Spend a fate point and it will be true if the GM accepts it.
B) Find an appropriate skill, roll it against a GM-set difficulty, and if you make the roll it is true.

The first method takes a fate point but there's no risk of a bad roll.  The second is less of a sure thing but doesn't cost you anything.  Either way, you get a free tag on any aspects created by your declarations.

They're extremely handy because you can do something like declare Rickety Wooden Stairs, Bad Wiring, and Leaky Pipes (using either method A, B, or a combination of both).  Then take the tags on all three of them for a +6 to your roll on a single maneuver to put the aspect Stunned or Muscle Spasms on someone.  You could then tag that aspect for a +2 to something else and, if it was sticky, continue to burn through fate points invoking it for both offense and defense.  Or you might even convince a GM to let you take the +6 to an attack roll and justify it by saying falling through the stairs and getting electrocuted caused the extra stress.  Creativity counts for a lot in this game.

On a side note, does anyone know if the RAW has a limit on how many declarations you can make during an exchange or if it's until the GM says "cut that out and do something already"?
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 13, 2011, 06:45:22 AM
On a side note, does anyone know if the RAW has a limit on how many declarations you can make during an exchange or if it's until the GM says "cut that out and do something already"?

As far as I know it's completely up to the GM, but most people here limit it to one or two declarations per exchange at the very least (sometimes much less often).
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Todjaeger on September 13, 2011, 06:57:04 AM
You say you don't understand the stress system. Let me try to explain:

When stress is inflicted to a character, the damaged character marks down their Xth stress box, where X is the amount of stress they took. If the box is full, the character marks down the next unfilled stress box.

When a character is forced to fill in a stress box they don't have, they are taken out. They are knocked unconscious, killed, or whatever the attacker was going for.

If a character wants to, they can absorb stress by taking a consequence. This is normally done to avoid being taken out. A consequence is an aspect, rated mild, moderate, severe, or extreme. Milds absorb two stress, moderates absorb 4, severes absorb 6, and extremes absorb 8. The higher the amount of stress absorbed, the longer the consequence takes to heal. Generally, a character can take 1 consequence of each level, but there are ways to increase the supply.

Does that make sense?

This might just be the way I'm reading this, but the player should mark UP, their stress boxes, not down.

Or in other words, a character has 4 Physical stress boxes, all unmarked.  The character is hit for a total of 2 stress.  Choosing not to take a Consequence, the player marks off Physical stress box #2.  The character is then hit again, and again for 2 stress.  The player still chooses not (or doesn't have any available) to take a Consequence, so the player then goes to mark of stress box #2.  Since that box is already been filled, the stress 'rolls up' and the player instead has to mark stress box #3.

Just wanted to clarify that, since the way it was written, it appeared to be saying that after stress box #2 was filled, the next box to fill would be stress box #1 when the stress goes up, not down.

-Cheers
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 13, 2011, 07:08:28 AM
As far as I know it's completely up to the GM, but most people here limit it to one or two declarations per exchange at the very least (sometimes much less often).

I've had it at one per character per exchange the whole time I've GMed, with increasing difficulty the more declarations were made in a scene.  Just occurred to me that I didn't remember actually reading where it said one way or the other in YW and didn't want to hand out incorrect info to heathd666.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Pbartender on September 13, 2011, 12:28:34 PM
I am guessing that with all aspects if it is something that helps your character it costs a Fate Point if it is something that hinders your character then you get a Fate Point.

In general, yes, sort of...  If the player is using an aspect to give themselves or someone else a bonus then they have to spend a Fate Point.  If the GM is using a character's aspect to introduce a complication, then he offers a Fate Point to the player who can choose to accept it (and the complication) or refuse...  If he refuses, then he doesn't get the GM's Fate Point and he must spend a Fate Point, so it's effectively a two Fate Point loss.

If a character takes an action that inflicts an aspect on someone else, like a maneuver, he (or one of his friends) can get a free tag on that aspect, with spending a Fate Point.

Quote
Also if I describe a scene in my other example "A dark warehouse cluttered with boxes and debris" since I have already declared these they cant be Tagged by the players correct?

Quite the contrary... Scene descriptions should give good clues to obvious scene aspects.  Your warehouse should absolutely have "Dark" and "Cluttered" aspects that both the players ("I use the shadows to sneak up behind the guards," or "I try to lose the guard chasing me by dodging and weaving between stacks of crates.") and you as the GM ("In the darkness, you stumble into a pile of scrap metal and knock it over, causing an untimely racket," or "The guards dive for cover behind a row of barrels.") can use to advantage (or disadvantage). 

Of course, there may be other, hidden, aspects the the players may have to make an assessment to discover -- "Security System", for example, thereby making it more difficult to sneak into the building -- or that they could add, with your permission, using a declaration -- "Access To The Sewers", for example, thereby making it easier to sneak into the building.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: admiralducksauce on September 13, 2011, 01:39:34 PM
Quote from: heathd666
If you have ever read Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering  most of my players are Butt Kickers, so I will have alot to explain but first I feel I need to understand it alot better.

Dude, you'll be fine.  Me and my entire group are proud Butt Kickers and we all love DFRPG.  And yeah, I made some mistakes at first despite reading everything I could about the game, but hey, next session you say "sorry guys, I was doing Stress wrong, here's a FP to everyone for the trouble" or "Scott, that Stunt doesn't work like that.  Sorry, it's just for establishing Blocks, but if you want, you can pick a new Stunt or we can just reword what you have so you CAN use it for defense."
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 13, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Also if I describe a scene in my other example "A dark warehouse cluttered with boxes and debris" since I have already declared these they cant be Tagged by the players correct?

Actually You're right, but I suspect that Pbartender's confusion comes from the terminology, which does trip people up often. One can only tag an aspect if someone has put effort into creating or discovering it, so declared, maneuvered or assessed aspects (consequences as well) can be tagged once for free, but scene aspects that are obvious from the beginning must be invoked with a fate point.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: admiralducksauce on September 13, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
Actually You're right, but I suspect that Pbartender's confusion comes from the terminology, which does trip people up often. One can only tag an aspect if someone has put effort into creating or discovering it, so declared, maneuvered or assessed aspects (consequences as well) can be tagged once for free, but scene aspects that are obvious from the beginning must be invoked with a fate point.

LOL.  This is a good example of my previous post where I learn that I've been doing things wrong this whole time.  :)   I've been throwing Scene Aspects out there and allowing the first invocation on them for free.  Ironically, I like doing it that way.  It hasn't caused any problems so far and it's resulted in 1) slightly quicker combats since you have those free tags from the get-go and 2) more interesting combats, as people finagle their actions around getting the free tags.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Pbartender on September 13, 2011, 06:11:06 PM
One can only tag an aspect if someone has put effort into creating or discovering it, so declared, maneuvered or assessed aspects (consequences as well) can be tagged once for free, but scene aspects that are obvious from the beginning must be invoked with a fate point.

That is precisely what I meant...  Player CAN use the described aspects, but they must use a Fate Point, since they did nothing to put them there.

It wasn't so much a misunderstanding of the terminology on my part, but more that I read the post too quickly and neglected to take notice of the terminology used.  I saw "tag", but my brain was thinking "invoke" when I wrote the response.

Sorry for the confusion.   :o  :P  ;D
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: heathd666 on September 14, 2011, 10:21:27 PM
Okay so I attempted a character today this is what I got.

Power level 
Up to your Waist and Skill Cap at Great.

His basic background is that he has no idea of who he is or what he has done there are things he just knows how to do so he drifts from place to place (big memory loss) Since I dont know much about playing or running the game this would be a good start..... Knowing absolutely nothing.

High Concept : "This is not the Droid you seek" Meaning I have no Idea of my past or why People keep seeking me out
Trouble: "Misery Loves Company" Trouble has a way of finding me
Other Aspects: "My memory is like a still pond, empty and devoid of all life, until you disturb its surface" I figured since I didnt do my 5 Aspects in a story like session that I would instead let the Gm help decide them for me in fun ways.

Skills
Great (2 slots) : Conviction,Endurance
Good (2 slots) : Lore, Discipline
Fair (3 slots) : Prescence, Alertness, Athletics
Average (5 slots) : Empathy, Fists, Might, Rapport, Stealth

Powers (Sorcerer Template)
Evocation
Thaumaturgy
Wizards Constitution

Focus Items
Gnarled Ol' Hickory staff +1 to Offensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)
Gold Wedding Band +1 to Defensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)

Stress
Physical 4
Mental 4
Social 3

Consequences
mild 1
moderate 1
severe 1

I did have some questions about this though, In Savage Worlds, you could take Hindrances to gain Edges, I couldnt find it but there is no way to buy negatives to increase Refresh correct? Also I am having a problem with figuring out a way to create a Champion of God but with a different religion for example Norse Gods liek Thor and a item of Power his Hammer. Or would that instead be a Emissary of Power? Either way I am still trying to figure out how to make the item do I use the rules for it YS167 ? The rules to me are kind of vague on this but it may be that I am new to the system.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 14, 2011, 11:06:25 PM
I figured since I didnt do my 5 Aspects in a story like session that I would instead let the Gm help decide them for me in fun ways.

I would still make aspects if you can. They might represent what is currently important to him, even though he doesn't have memory. For example how does he feel about his lack of memory? Is there anyone who knows him from before (or since for that matter) that is important to him? What does he do (like for a living) now? etc?

I did have some questions about this though, In Savage Worlds, you could take Hindrances to gain Edges, I couldnt find it but there is no way to buy negatives to increase Refresh correct?

There are a couple of powers that give you refresh back (like human form, feeding dependency, or the catch) but they're mostly about reducing the cost of powers rather than actually giving you refresh. Additionally pure mortals have an extra 2 refresh, but they can't have any powers at all.

Also I am having a problem with figuring out a way to create a Champion of God but with a different religion for example Norse Gods liek Thor and a item of Power his Hammer. Or would that instead be a Emissary of Power? Either way I am still trying to figure out how to make the item do I use the rules for it YS167 ? The rules to me are kind of vague on this but it may be that I am new to the system.

This is it's own discussion all on it's own. You probably could tweak true faith powers to represent another kind of believer but it's still going to be similar since the powers are what they are. Items are essentially repositories of power and you buy powers for them that you have as long as you have the item. Additionally items can have their own agendas (like sponsored magic) and you would need to mention it in your high concept (which the GM could compel for all sorts of interesting things). As far as power received from another being I'd go with sponsored magic. It's like evocation and thaumaturgy but with it's own elements/theme that's defined by your sponsor (thor would give lightning, travel, I don't remember enough about thor, etc spells) and reigned in by the sponsor's will (I.E. you can't do anything with it that the sponsor doesn't want you to do).
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 14, 2011, 11:11:49 PM
Okay so I attempted a character today this is what I got.

Power level 
Up to your Waist and Skill Cap at Great.

His basic background is that he has no idea of who he is or what he has done there are things he just knows how to do so he drifts from place to place (big memory loss) Since I dont know much about playing or running the game this would be a good start..... Knowing absolutely nothing.

High Concept : "This is not the Droid you seek" Meaning I have no Idea of my past or why People keep seeking me out
Trouble: "Misery Loves Company" Trouble has a way of finding me
Other Aspects: "My memory is like a still pond, empty and devoid of all life, until you disturb its surface" I figured since I didnt do my 5 Aspects in a story like session that I would instead let the Gm help decide them for me in fun ways.

Skills
Great (2 slots) : Conviction,Endurance
Good (2 slots) : Lore, Discipline
Fair (3 slots) : Prescence, Alertness, Athletics
Average (5 slots) : Empathy, Fists, Might, Rapport, Stealth

Powers (Sorcerer Template)
Evocation
Thaumaturgy
Wizards Constitution

Focus Items
Gnarled Ol' Hickory staff +1 to Offensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)
Gold Wedding Band +1 to Defensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)

Stress
Physical 4
Mental 4
Social 3

Consequences
mild 1
moderate 1
severe 1

I did have some questions about this though, In Savage Worlds, you could take Hindrances to gain Edges, I couldnt find it but there is no way to buy negatives to increase Refresh correct? Also I am having a problem with figuring out a way to create a Champion of God but with a different religion for example Norse Gods liek Thor and a item of Power his Hammer. Or would that instead be a Emissary of Power? Either way I am still trying to figure out how to make the item do I use the rules for it YS167 ? The rules to me are kind of vague on this but it may be that I am new to the system.

Gold Wedding Band would be a dirt simple aspect ripe for plot hooks and compels.

Yeah, Champion of God is just a specialized Emissary of Power really.

No there is no way to buy negatives to increase Refresh in the sense you're thinking.  You WANT your quirks to cause you trouble because it gets you fate points.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: noclue on September 14, 2011, 11:40:25 PM
LOL.  This is a good example of my previous post where I learn that I've been doing things wrong this whole time.  :)   I've been throwing Scene Aspects out there and allowing the first invocation on them for free.  Ironically, I like doing it that way.  It hasn't caused any problems so far and it's resulted in 1) slightly quicker combats since you have those free tags from the get-go and 2) more interesting combats, as people finagle their actions around getting the free tags.
The folks I play with have been doing this forever in various SOTC hacks. In DFRPG, the FATE point economy is a bit tighter, so not so much. Your way won't break anything, but will change the flavor and loosen it up in the ways you note.

@heathd666 what hindrances would you want to take?
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Morgan on September 14, 2011, 11:48:39 PM
Okay firstly what do you want this character to be and do? From your choice of powers it looks like you want to be a Wizard or as close as you can be at the the up to your waist level which means the Sorcerer Template. If that's the case your High Concept should have something about being a Sorcerer, it should also probably have something about being an amnesiac or just having no memory, and probably something about what this character does. Something like "Wandering Amnesiac Sorcerer" is a better High Concept for this character. Remember most of your compels and invokes for being whatever your character is in the DFRPG are based on your High Concept. Whenever Harry reaps some fate points by frying technology at inopportune times or when he gets his Wizard on and makes with the seriously powerful magic, he is using his High Concept. "This is not the Droid you seek" doesn't really fit your character's High Concept and cool SW reference aside it won't help you when you try to invoke or compel it to be who and what you want your character to be.

Now it might work as your Trouble, but you really want your Trouble to be a complication based on your High Concept that you want to come up in the game. Do you want people actively looking for you? Do you want to know who you are and what happened to your memory? Do you want to be a wandering man of magic and mystery who wanders the earth and gets into adventures, like David Banner, Kwai Chang Caine, or Jules Winnfield? Pick whatever problem excites you and make your Trouble aspect about that.

As for your other Aspects you shouldn't just leave them up to the GM, you and the other players should have a say in it as well. The DFRPG method of City and Character Creation should really be done as a group activity, connections will be made and setting and story will be established. Doing lonely fun character creation isn't really where the game shines. So even though the character has no memory, you must have some ideas of his past. And even if you don't think about what badass things you would like your character to do in the game and what sort of interesting things could happen to the character and make some Aspects that fit. Let yourself, the GM, and the other players know what you want your character to do in the game.

Unfortunately no there aren't any hindrances that will give you more refresh. There are a few powers that will give you discounts in the form of +refresh, but they are all tied to things that you will have to pay points for. The only way to gain Refresh points is to be a Pure Mortal which will give you +2 starting Refresh, but you lose them when you buy any supernatural powers and therefore stop being a Pure Mortal. DFRPG is really good at reinforcing the whole Power vs Free Will, Monster vs Mortal thing and Refresh levels is the way it does that.

Now as to your Power choices for this character, you really should pick up The Sight, however that will put you over the Refresh and your character has become his power. So is there a way that you could take one of the lesser forms of Magic like Channeling or Ritual and still fit your character concept? Right now without The Sight, you've got the magical equivalent of a USMC Scout Sniper who is completely blind. Do you want this character to do lots of quick, flashy, kablooey type magic, or do you want slow and steady magical effects that take a long time and much preparation? From the looks of your focus items it looks like spirit magic of the quick and dirty variety is your thing, so keep Evocation, bump Thaumaturgy down to Ritual and pick a focus for your ritual magic that you want your character to be doing. Then you can afford The Sight no problem.

Now as for creating a Champion of Norse gods, the wielder of an Item of Power, or an Emissary of Power. What is the specific problems you are having? What is the Item and what do you want it to do?
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Morgan on September 15, 2011, 12:01:39 AM
Gold Wedding Band would be a dirt simple aspect ripe for plot hooks and compels.

This should definitely be one of your aspects.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: heathd666 on September 15, 2011, 11:43:52 PM
@ Morgan
High Concept : "Wandering Amnesiac Sorcerer"
Trouble: "I dont try looking for trouble it seems to find me just fine"
Other Aspects: "
"Misery Loves Company" Trouble has a way of finding me
"My memory is like a still pond, empty and devoid of all life, until you disturb its surface"
"My Gold Wedding Band"
"Where did I come from?, Who am I? Why can't I remember? What have I done to have so many people wanting to hurt me? How did I come to be without my Memory"
"If I could only remember who I am"

Skills
Great (2 slots) : Conviction,Endurance
Good (2 slots) : Lore, Discipline
Fair (3 slots) : Prescence, Alertness, Athletics
Average (5 slots) : Empathy, Fists, Might, Rapport, Stealth

Powers (Sorcerer Template)
Evocation (Air, Earth, Spirit)
Ritual (Spirit)
Wizards Constitution
The Sight
Soulgaze

Focus Items
Gnarled Ol' Hickory staff +1 to Offensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)
Gold Wedding Band +1 to Defensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)

Stress
Physical 4
Mental 4
Social 3

Consequences
mild 1
moderate 1
severe 1

As for the Norse god I am not sure where to begin, I was guessing kinda like an example someone found an old stone hammer and BAM! became an emmisary of power for Thor. But the directions aint exactly step by step on how to do it.

@noclue no idea what hindrance I was only meaning that that was my take on aspects but it turns out it isnt like Savage Worlds its more of Aspects are good and bad and Fate is not so much like Bennies from Savage Worlds.

@ sinker
I was mainly looking at all the options so I was competent in what to tell my players when they ask me something about building a character.

@The Mighty Buzzard
Yes I am starting to understand it a bit more the Champion of God is more of a Emmisary of Power but with a magic sword  :)

I was simply trying to make sure I understood character creation before I sat down with my players and tried to make characters with them is why I was making a character and asking about it thanks for all the replies and helpful advice

sincerely
heath delashmit
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: noclue on September 16, 2011, 01:50:31 AM
@noclue no idea what hindrance I was only meaning that that was my take on aspects but it turns out it isnt like Savage Worlds its more of Aspects are good and bad and Fate is not so much like Bennies from Savage Worlds.

Right. Any hindrance you think up is probably a good candidate for an aspect.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Silverblaze on September 16, 2011, 02:09:47 AM
Constructive Criticism:

I'd only have my high concept relate to memory loss, maybe one more.  If you can come up with a few more; different ones, they can be compelled for other reasons and net you more fate points in more situations.

Might suggest something odd about your magic... this could be used to compel the PC to seek an answer as to why his magic behaves "x" ways.  Could be used to compel the PC to do strange things with spells also.  Accidently cause collateral damage (that causes trouble for the PC) etc.  Then you'll get a fate point.

"Where did I come from?, Who am I? Why can't I remember? What have I done to have so many people wanting to hurt me? How did I come to be without my Memory"
- may be served in a more concise way:

"My past haunts me begetting more problems."

also "misery loves company" seems to double up with your Trouble aspect.

Looking better as you refine it though. :)
This could allow more than people chasing you.  Could find innocents you may have hurt or helped before seeking you for help, or fleeing you.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Morgan on September 18, 2011, 10:36:09 AM
@ Morgan
High Concept : "Wandering Amnesiac Sorcerer"
Trouble: "I dont try looking for trouble it seems to find me just fine"
Other Aspects: "
"Misery Loves Company" Trouble has a way of finding me
"My memory is like a still pond, empty and devoid of all life, until you disturb its surface"
"My Gold Wedding Band"
"Where did I come from?, Who am I? Why can't I remember? What have I done to have so many people wanting to hurt me? How did I come to be without my Memory"
"If I could only remember who I am"
Some of your aspects are a little too long, when I come up with aspects I like to try and keep them pithy and punchy. For your Trouble I'd shorten it to "I'm Not Looking For Any Trouble." All the rest of it is nicely implied in that phrase, especially with some of your other aspects.

"Where did I come from?, Who am I? Why can't I remember? What have I done to have so many people wanting to hurt me? How did I come to be without my Memory" Is way too long, it will be insanely hard to fit on a character sheet if nothing else, try something like "I Just Want Some Answers.", or maybe "I'm Looking For Answers!" which embodies most of those questions and also might be invoked for a bonus when the character sticks his nose where it doesn't belong, and ties in nicely with the character's trouble.

You've also loaded up on quite a lot of memory loss Aspects and now a lot of those compels and issues can be handled with your High Concept, and one or two aspects. The aspect "My memory is like a still pond, empty and devoid of all life, until you disturb its surface" is very cool and evocative it could almost be split into two or three aspects, but what do you want this aspect to do in the game? It seems like your going for something along the lines of having great power inside that can be unleashed when it is least expected. Some more aspects about your magical powers are probably in order so perhaps something like "Don't Make Me Angry!", or for something less Incredible Hulk; "Unexpected Talents", "Hidden Depths of Power", "Deep Reservoir of Power", "Power Beneath the Surface", "Still Waters, Run Deep". Really though it depends on what you think it means and how you want it to effect play, I'd just suggest an aspect dealing with the character's magic power might be more useful than yet another memory based aspect.

"Misery Loves Company" and "Golden Wedding Band" are both good, and they are short and to the point, I'd be curious how you're thinking you might invoke the first one, do you make friends who get into trouble with you, or that you end up sharing in their troubles? Or are you really going to mainly compel it help to pile on the pain, and invoke it to be inured to suffering. Also you could tweak the second one to point it a direction that really interests you with not much more than the addition of a word and a question mark "A Golden Wedding Band?" is quite different from "My Golden Wedding Band?" or "Who's Gold Wedding Band?", punctuation can really make a big difference in Aspects and exclamation points and question marks can be great additions to some Aspects.

"If I could only remember who I am" Since you've already got a lot of general memory loss aspects I'd be inclined to make this one much more pointed and focused. "Am I Wanted By The Wardens?", "Why Can I Remember The Laws?","Why Can I Remember The Name ____?","Should My Past Remain Hidden?". The character's wanting to remembering who he is is already taken care of. Throw him a bone and give him a clue that can be pursued during play, or maybe just go with a useful utility aspect like "Magic Isn't The Only Thing I Remember How To Do", "I Remember More Than Magic", or "I Might Know How To Do That".
Quote
Powers (Sorcerer Template)
Evocation (Air, Earth, Spirit)
Ritual (Spirit)
So choosing a Ritual specialization works a little differently than Evocation, you don't pick an element rather you pick one Type or Theme of Thaumaturgy. You should take a look at Types of Thaumaturgy beginning on YS page 274, Thematic Thaumaturgy on beginning on YS page 284 to get a sense of potential options. Themes are broader based in terms of powers essentially letting you use all the Types of Thaumaturgy, but they are based only on specific applications of those powers. Ritual (Ectomancy) can do all the types of Thaumaturgy, but only if they deal with ghosts. Whereas Types of Thaumaturgy are very specific powers which can be applied in a broader way. Ritual (Summoning and Binding) for instance can be used to Summon and Bind just about anything, not just Ghosts, but it couldn't be used to Veil or Craft.

Since you've put down Ritual (Spirit) it seems like you'd like to have more of a Themed Thaumaturgy, I'd suggest either Ectomancy or Psychomancy. Psychomancy could be really neat for this character especially if you want to walk that razor's edge of Lawbreaker, and also delve into the recesses of his own mind. Otherwise if you want more of a Type of Thaumaturgy for your Ritual: Divination, Veils, or Summoning and Binding, are pretty solid choices that fit the Spirit element choice pretty well.

Quote
Wizards Constitution
The Sight
Soulgaze
Since you already picked up Soulgaze for free when you got The Sight you are now just one Major Milestone away from being a full Wizard.

Quote
As for the Norse god I am not sure where to begin, I was guessing kinda like an example someone found an old stone hammer and BAM! became an emmisary of power for Thor. But the directions aint exactly step by step on how to do it.
Start with a High Concept that deals with being "Thor's Emissary", and start buying powers like Marked by Power, and Item of Power if you want to go the "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." route. Then it is just a matter of picking out the powers that the Item of Power grants and applying the Item's discount. For Thor's powers and depending on Refresh levels, at low levels it would probably grant Inhuman Strength, Inhuman Speed, Inhuman Toughness and/or Inhuman Recovery, it might also have Breath Weapon to handle throwing Lightning Bolts. At higher levels increase it to the Supernatural or maybe even Mythic levels of those powers, and possibly add Sponsored Magic (Storm God). It will also be indestructible by normal means and be a (Weapon:2-3), it may give some +1 or +2 Stunt-like bonuses in certain instances, and might also have the ability to return to the wielder when thrown.

Here is a quick write up of a Minor Mjolnir, it's probably not actually Thor's hammer but rather another mystic hammer crafted by the dwarfs and bestowed to Thor's Emissary by the God of Thunder. Or maybe it holds only a portion of the real Mjolnir's power in it due to the character's connection to Thor. Perhaps it is the real Mjolnir, and the character is only beginning to unlock it's true potential and claim their godhood as the New Thor.

-6 Item of Power (Minor Mjolnir)
(Weapon:3), Unbreakable, Returns to Wielder when Thrown
+2 Refresh (Big, Obvious, Can't be Easily Concealed)
-2 Inhuman Strength
-2 Inhuman Speed
+2 The Catch (Snake Venom)
-2 Inhuman Toughness
-2 Inhuman Recovery
-2 Breath Weapon (Lightning Bolt)

A mini Mjolnir could be made with only +1 Refresh at a cost of -7 Item of Power, and a Special Ability to shrink in size to a pendant when not in use.
With all the bonuses from Inhuman Strength it does (Weapon:5), and can shoot Lightning Bolts that do (Weapon:2) damage.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: zenten on September 18, 2011, 02:02:53 PM
One thing to keep in mind when picking Aspects for your character is that you don't want to have more than one Aspect useful for the same compel.  There's no reason to have more than one Aspect for getting compelled on having amnesia because in the end that doesn't affect how many Fate points you will get.  Instead you should aim (when looking at the compel side of things) to have each Aspect be compelled in a different situation.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: heathd666 on September 18, 2011, 04:47:51 PM
High Concept : "Wandering Amnesiac Sorcerer"
Trouble: "I'm Not Looking For Any Trouble."
Other Aspects:
"Misery Loves Company" (was actually meaning for this to be compelled as in I get into trouble and anyone that is with me at the time could use it for a +2 or reroll or I can use it when others are with me and trouble comes knocking. I believe thats the way its should work?
"Deep Reservoir of Power"
"My Gold Wedding Band"
"I'm Looking For Answers!"
"Should My Past Remain Hidden?"

Skills
Great (2 slots) : Conviction,Endurance
Good (2 slots) : Lore, Discipline
Fair (3 slots) : Prescence, Alertness, Athletics
Average (5 slots) : Empathy, Fists, Might, Rapport, Stealth

Powers (Sorcerer Template)
Evocation (Air, Earth, Spirit)
Ritual (Psychomancy)
Wizards Constitution
The Sight
Soulgaze

Focus Items
Gnarled Ol' Hickory staff +1 to Offensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)
Gold Wedding Band +1 to Defensive Control and Power (Spirit Evocation)

Stress
Physical 4
Mental 4
Social 3

Consequences
mild 1
moderate 1
severe 1

I also had a question about skills and their trapping. Are you supposed to specialize in skills or? It seems there are alot of emphasis on the Trappings for the skills but not sure what the trappings actually do (I know what the skills do just not sure what use the trappings have) besides just detail what you can or cant use that skill for.

Also I just wanted to make sure I understood this right. All characters can only do 1 action per I guess you would call it round. So I could cast a spell than later down the round someone attacks me I get a free Block or Dodge or some other defensive action but I cant cast another spell like a magical defense?

With the whole Thor's Emissary example I would basically build a pure mortal character but I would buy the powers and stuff for the item and not the character? or would I build a pure mortal character then build a second character for the item of power?

@Silverblaze

Might suggest something odd about your magic... this could be used to compel the PC to seek an answer as to why his magic behaves "x" ways.  Could be used to compel the PC to do strange things with spells also.  Accidently cause collateral damage (that causes trouble for the PC) etc.  Then you'll get a fate point.

I am not sure on how to do this. Is it I try to add it as an aspect like "My spells have a mind of their own" meaning that anytime I use my magic sometimes they do odd things and react different from the way I intended them to or what?

@zenten
yeah I am definitly struggling with Aspects still but it seems the more I work on it the more I get a grasp on it. Anyone have a quick and dirty cheat sheet on aspects and their ways of using them or could point me to where I could find it. I am afraid my "search fu" is not up to par.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Silverblaze on September 18, 2011, 05:29:22 PM
Well, being an amnesiac gives you room to play around with what really happened in your past.

Magic: "My magic is hard on the environment" - you GM can compel you to cause fallout on hte surroundings instead of taking the damage yourself to control it.

 "My magic has a mind of it's own" - your GM could compel you to use a different kind of magic ( you have three elements - using fire inside a wooden building is generally unwise yes? The GM could hand you a fate point and you get fire instead of the other element.)

Sorceror's are not in the WC so you could get one or two aspects based on that "Trained to hurt people; forgot how not to." - Your Gm could have you use attack spells rather than maneuvers.

None of these are perfect ideas , nor should you necessarily make your magic wonky.  I'm just giving you ideas to fit in with not remembering training. 

May want to pick up something reputation related.  Something that draws people to you for help or makes them run screaming.  You of course would be bewildered by this.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Morgan on September 18, 2011, 05:56:00 PM
Other Aspects:
"Misery Loves Company" (was actually meaning for this to be compelled as in I get into trouble and anyone that is with me at the time could use it for a +2 or reroll or I can use it when others are with me and trouble comes knocking. I believe thats the way its should work?

Other folks don't get really get to tag your aspect just because they are with you when things go bad, they still have to spend a fate point to tag your aspect and usually that works mechanically when they are attacking or going against you. The way that compel would work is basically you would get a fate point for dragging your friends into your trouble, or joining them in their trouble. They aren't going to be reaping any fate points off your compel unless they also have a similar aspect that can be compelled at the same time to earn them fate points of their own.

Quote
Skills
Great (2 slots) : Conviction,Endurance
Good (2 slots) : Lore, Discipline
Fair (3 slots) : Prescence, Alertness, Athletics
Average (5 slots) : Empathy, Fists, Might, Rapport, Stealth

I also had a question about skills and their trapping. Are you supposed to specialize in skills or? It seems there are alot of emphasis on the Trappings for the skills but not sure what the trappings actually do (I know what the skills do just not sure what use the trappings have) besides just detail what you can or cant use that skill for.
Trappings determine what a skill can be used for, that's pretty much it. There isn't a specialization, your skills in FATE are pretty broadly defined and can do a lot. Trappings are basically a way to define various rules for how skills are used in different circumstances.

Quote
Also I just wanted to make sure I understood this right. All characters can only do 1 action per I guess you would call it round. So I could cast a spell than later down the round someone attacks me I get a free Block or Dodge or some other defensive action but I cant cast another spell like a magical defense?
Yes you get to take one active action in an exchange. If you set up a Block then attacks against you are made against the Block rather than an Athletics or other appropriate skill roll to dodge. However you do not get a free Block roll if someone attacks you before you have set it up. Magic Blocks are kind of tricky, but what you basically want to do is use shifts of power to make persistent Blocks that last a number of rounds, so that you can leave it up and still get to take an action the next round. If you are just using skill rolls to dodge then you can make as many as you need to and still get your action during the exchange.

Quote
With the whole Thor's Emissary example I would basically build a pure mortal character but I would buy the powers and stuff for the item and not the character? or would I build a pure mortal character then build a second character for the item of power?
Nope you would be building a Supernaturally powered character and start with the basic refresh level of the game. By picking up and becoming empowered by the Item of Power you are no longer a Pure Mortal. The powers might be all tied up in an item but you are still using them and therefore you buy them out of your own refresh. In the books this is why
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 18, 2011, 07:13:09 PM
"My Gold Wedding Band"

I'm starting to realize that this just isn't a very good aspect. It's full of great story meaning and can be compelled for all sorts of plot hooks... but that's about it. I can't think of any other thing to do with it at all, positive or negative. I suppose maybe it could be invoked for you to remember some hidden motivation and push past some obstacle. At the very least you should think about how you want to use this in play. If you can't think of anything then you should work on it or ditch it.

Also I just wanted to make sure I understood this right. All characters can only do 1 action per I guess you would call it round. So I could cast a spell than later down the round someone attacks me I get a free Block or Dodge or some other defensive action but I cant cast another spell like a magical defense?

In order to create a magical defense that is practical and allows you to act, you basically have one of two options. You can take some of the shifts of the spell and devote them to duration (1 shift = +1 exchange after the first). In this way you reduce the effectiveness of the spell a little to make it last longer, however it will still go away if someone breaks it (which is more likely since you reduced it's power). If you can't tell, I don't like this option much. The second option is to use your next action to extend the spell's duration. You basically cast a second spell and add all of those shifts to the duration of your original spell. Check out "Prolonging spells" on YS259 for the full version. This does have it's own disadvantages, using a second action, and additional mental stress, and on top of that it's still a little vulnerable, but of the two this is the more likely to keep you well defended.

yeah I am definitly struggling with Aspects still but it seems the more I work on it the more I get a grasp on it. Anyone have a quick and dirty cheat sheet on aspects and their ways of using them or could point me to where I could find it. I am afraid my "search fu" is not up to par.

There is an aspect list in the resources board, however it is only a list and says absolutely nothing about how they might be used.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: Morgan on September 18, 2011, 09:34:04 PM
I'm starting to realize that this just isn't a very good aspect. It's full of great story meaning and can be compelled for all sorts of plot hooks... but that's about it. I can't think of any other thing to do with it at all, positive or negative. I suppose maybe it could be invoked for you to remember some hidden motivation and push past some obstacle. At the very least you should think about how you want to use this in play. If you can't think of anything then you should work on it or ditch it.

I can think of a lot of ways to use it especially since it is one of the character's focus items. It is a symbol of his love, and that is some powerful mojo right there. Any time he casts defensive magic or really just about any magic he can concentrate on the ring and invoke it for a bonus. Whoever the ring represents might be hidden from memory, but the feelings of love and commitment, and emotional attachment is still there even without the memories. And maybe sometimes he gets a flash of a face, a warm laugh, or a whispered name that he just can't make out but which gives him the strength to keep going, if only to find out what happened to his wife. And it might have enough true love in it to make a left cross wickedly effective against a White Court Vampire. As for other sorts of compels it might be a little harder, but certainly he wouldn't feel right making any new emotional attachments, and don't knock the value of all those plot hooks, and mysteries about his past that could be tied up and kicked off by the unknown identity of his wife.

I view it acting a lot like Harry's "My Mother's Silver Pentacle", is it always immediately useful mechanically? No, but it is a great symbol and it screams back story.
Title: Re: DFRPG and FATE
Post by: sinker on September 18, 2011, 10:30:10 PM
Ah, clearly you've thought this out much more than I have. Very well, play on.  :)