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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Pbartender on September 09, 2011, 04:50:20 PM

Title: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 09, 2011, 04:50:20 PM
"The strength of an enchanted item may be reduced by one to make it usable by someone other than the caster, such as a magically armored coat that anyone can wear."  YS279.

Normally, a non-spellcaster can only use an enchanted item or potion, if a wizard makes it and loans it to them (thereby temporarily sacrificing the relevant item slots until its given back).

Now, presuming I wanted to allow a non-spellcaster to acquire and use a magic item on a fairly permanent basis, what sort of (extra?) cost would you impose...  If they gained it through a stunt?  If they gained it by purchasing it with a Resources roll?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: ARedthorn on September 09, 2011, 05:02:14 PM
I'd be curious to know the boards' ruling as well- I had a wizard who decided her best friend (a man of God type) was just too squishy, and made him an armored jacket. In the end, after being rather unsatisfied with him having an item that depended on her stats, I had him take it as a weak IoP (with only Inhuman Toughness, and nothing else).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Rechan on September 09, 2011, 05:03:42 PM
Yeah I'd make them take refresh for it.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: KOFFEYKID on September 09, 2011, 05:25:41 PM
The easiest way to do this is Item of power, but not like you are thinking: Item of Power +2 that gives Ritual (Crafting) and something else (like inhuman toughness).

Though this can easily become abusable.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: gojj on September 09, 2011, 06:31:57 PM
I'd be curious to know the boards' ruling as well- I had a wizard who decided her best friend (a man of God type) was just too squishy, and made him an armored jacket. In the end, after being rather unsatisfied with him having an item that depended on her stats, I had him take it as a weak IoP (with only Inhuman Toughness, and nothing else).

I wouldn't charge the man of god any refresh whatsoever, in my opinion it comes out of the wizard's refresh. Even though she is not carrying the enchanted item herself, it is still in use and therefore still costs her an enchanted item slot. I see no reason to bring Items of Power into the equation, those are something else entirely.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Haru on September 09, 2011, 06:41:37 PM
I've got a character in my campaign who does exactly this. He took refinement for the enchanted item slots and the item strength is determined by contacts rather than lore. You could change this to burglary for a thief or resources for a collector, there are lots of possibilities.

If the use of magic is part of the characters concept, the character is no longer a pure mortal, even if the magic comes from stolen/bought/borrowed items.
Loaning an item every now and then however should not fall under this, but taking up the enchanted item slots of another character permanently is kind of unfair. If the character takes refinement for himself but gets his items from the wizard, that would only be a narrative factor, the mechanics would be shifted to the user, the crafting strength of the wizard would no longer factor in.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 09, 2011, 07:00:23 PM
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26219.msg1116446.html#msg1116446 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26219.msg1116446.html#msg1116446)

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26610.msg1133920.html#msg1133920 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26610.msg1133920.html#msg1133920)
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Taran on September 09, 2011, 07:13:23 PM
I wouldn't charge the man of god any refresh whatsoever, in my opinion it comes out of the wizard's refresh. Even though she is not carrying the enchanted item herself, it is still in use and therefore still costs her an enchanted item slot. I see no reason to bring Items of Power into the equation, those are something else entirely.

I agree with this.  If one player is willing to give up an enchantment slot to another player, then what's the problem?  It's still the same amount of refresh spread amongst all the PC's.

Also, there's nothing "unfair" about someone using their refresh to help a fellow PC.  Some Characters do nothing but buff their allies.  It's up to the player to decide what they want with their powers.

The only argument I see against this is when you "slay the enemy wizard" and he's got a bunch of items that are usable by others.  DFRPG has a aweful lack of "treasure" anyways.  Why not throw the party a bone every once in a while.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 09, 2011, 08:10:35 PM
The easiest way to do this is Item of power, but not like you are thinking: Item of Power +2 that gives Ritual (Crafting) and something else (like inhuman toughness).

Right, but but Items of Power come with baggage that I'm trying to avoid.  Notably...  The fact that they can't be destroyed, and the fact that they can't be as easily loaned to someone else.  Also, IoPs tend to be considerably more powerful than the typical Enchanted Item or Potion.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26219.msg1116446.html#msg1116446 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26219.msg1116446.html#msg1116446)

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26610.msg1133920.html#msg1133920 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26610.msg1133920.html#msg1133920)

Oooo...  Good stuff there.  That gives me some ideas.  Here's what I'm aiming for, I think:


How's that look for a start?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: gojj on September 09, 2011, 08:55:20 PM
I don't think a Pure Mortal would be able to use Enchanted Items, they wouldn't know how. I haven't read all of the Dresden books yet so if there is an example of a Pure Mortal using one than I shall stand corrected, but I think the whole point of the two bonus refresh is to help mitigate the fact that they have no access to anything supernatural. Inventing a stunt as a loophole seems to be going against the spirit of what the Pure Mortal template is supposed to be, even if it doesn't break any rules.

Now if a Minor Talent, True Believer, etc. wants to get their hands on some Enchanted Items, then yes I like the idea of creating a stunt for that, but I just don't like the idea of mortals throwing around magic and still keeping their two refresh bonus, even if you do make the character owe debts and all sorts of story stuff.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: wyvern on September 09, 2011, 09:07:53 PM
In the game I'm currently running, one of the PCs - a mortal human - got taught how to maintain enchanted items.  In terms of game mechanics, we decided to treat this as a single point of refinement, granting four enchanted item slots; picking this up also cost the character her pure mortal refresh bonus.  However, the character can't actually make enchanted items - instead being limited to those provided by other PCs & NPCs.  We decided that - based on the example of the warden swords - she could use enchanted items made specifically for her at the full lore rating of whoever did the crafting, rather than having to user her own (much lower) lore skill.  Which, given that it cost her the pure mortal bonus, seemed eminently fair.  (Had the character been a were-critter, or some other non-caster supernatural template, we might have ruled differently.)
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: gojj on September 09, 2011, 09:10:34 PM
This seems fair to me, so essentially she is now a Minor Talent (game mechanic wise).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 09, 2011, 09:16:06 PM
I don't think using enchanted items necessarily requires any skill. After all, Harry's duster is an EI and it requires no action to use whatsoever.

Maintaining them is another matter.

I think the easiest and least problematic way to handle this would be a stunt giving a "buying enchanted items" trapping to either Resources or Contacts. The difficulty to acquire a given item would be set by the GM.

It's handwavey, but oh well. Taken with an appropriate aspect, it'd satisfy most of Pbartender's conditions.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: gojj on September 09, 2011, 09:42:49 PM
I like the stunt about being able to use enchanted items, but I think that if someone wants a mortal to use enchanted items, they should not receive the two refresh bonus. It just seems unfair to me that a mortal could (theoretically) throw around magic nearly as effectively as a Focused Practitioner, but at half the power cost and still be up a point thanks to the bonus.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 09, 2011, 09:47:42 PM
My proposal makes mortal access to enchanted items exactly as powerful and easy as the GM feels inclined to make it at any given time. I don't see a need to remove the mortal bonus, given that.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Becq on September 09, 2011, 09:48:31 PM
Just keep in mind that any 'stunt' that provides access to magical power (including potions and the like) is not truly a 'stunt' at all, but is a power, and voids a character's Pure Mortal bonus.  If this were not the case, then Item of Power would be a stunt, and wouldn't cost the Pure Mortal bonus.  (Sanctaphrax and I disagree on this.)

All of this assumes a permanent use of something from the spooky side.  Just borrowing something (ie, drinking a potion provided by a wizard) is fine, even for a Pure Mortal.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 09, 2011, 09:51:24 PM
But the stunt I recommend does not actually give permanent access to anything. It just lets you borrow from NPCs on a case-by-case basis.

PS: I actually agree with you about that. What I disagree with you about is whether a mortal stunt can boost things that have to do with supernatural powers. Stuff like +2 Craftsmanship while The Sight is open.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: gojj on September 09, 2011, 10:11:25 PM
But the stunt I recommend does not actually give permanent access to anything. It just lets you borrow from NPCs on a case-by-case basis.

PS: I actually agree with you about that. What I disagree with you about is whether a mortal stunt can boost things that have to do with supernatural powers. Stuff like +2 Craftsmanship while The Sight is open.

So you are not suggesting a stunt that lets the player (assuming they made whatever difficulty role the GM sets) have an enchanted item that recharges with each new session like a normal enchanted item, but instead allows the character to borrow the item for a set amount of time, most likely included in the difficulty role, and once that time has expired, or the enchanted item is used up, the player must then make a new role for a new item. And they can carry as many items at once as the stunt allows. Is that all correct?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 09, 2011, 10:17:08 PM
Yep.

The user could theoretically get an infinite number of infinitely powerful items if they had infinite skills. Fortunately, they don't.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: gojj on September 09, 2011, 10:29:52 PM
Ah, I see. At first I thought you were suggesting something like the stunt in your first link. Hm, interesting. I would then agree with you that this can be done while retaining the two refresh bonus, provided that the items are difficult enough to require. Now "difficult enough" could be another thread altogether and I am nowhere near qualified enough to be throwing around concrete numbers, but if the players and their GM all agree on a scale and all think it is fair then I see no problem with it. And as was suggested earlier the supplier might call upon the player for some favors in return for all the magical goodies he/she has provided.

I thought you were suggesting that if a player rolled well and threw in a couple fate points and they got something like a ring with a weapon: 8 blast that can be used three times each game, they would have that at the start of each and every game thereafter.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 09, 2011, 11:14:59 PM
Since I wrote the linked stunts, let me explain how I got to them:

I figured the pure mortal bonus was +2.  Anything I did should mitigate that bonus if it allowed a pure mortal access to magic (even just regular chances to use potions).  I pointed out examples in the books of pure mortals using magic items here and there.

So, I had a stunt.  This cost 1 refresh (halfway there).  I made it a stunt and not a power because I saw it as adding a trapping to a skill.  This was a pretty powerful trapping, so it cost a fate point to use each time.  Effectively, they lost access to two fate points by accessing a single magic item.  Thus, I felt the pure mortal bonus was mitigated.  Cool.  Balance.

I've gone back and forth about having the strength of the item be equal to Resources-2 or just Resources.  Finally, I decided that Resources was balanced (after some playtesting). 
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: easl on September 10, 2011, 12:02:41 AM
Another option: tell the players that you'll go with whatever solution they want - costs nothing, costs FP, costs refresh, whatever - but that they should keep in mind that the bad guys will have the same access they do.  So unless they want every mook in existence coming at them armed with flame wands and enchanted bullet-repelling bracelets, they should think seriously about the 'free' option.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Becq on September 10, 2011, 01:01:23 AM
I think the stunt is way, way too versatile.  Say a character had the two trinket stunts (Collector of Arcane Goods and Arcane Connoisseur) and Resources 5.  This would allow them to any of the following once per scene, for the cost of a Fate point:

* gain an automatic result of 7 on any one roll (even for unknown skills)
* gain a ranged attack at weapon:7, or a zone attack at weapon:5
* gain 3 armor, useable at will twice during the scene
* gain a block 6, useable at will twice during the scene
* cancel out any ongoing spell with a strength no more than 7

Obviously, this is only a small sampling of what could be done, there really aren't any limits.  And it can be used for any of those benefits, with no preparation.  And even after getting these stunts, a Pure Mortal would still have as many refresh left to spend on stunts (or to save) as any supernatural creature starts with.  What other two stunts come close to this?

At a minimum, I'd rewrite the stunt along these lines:

Where does he get those wonderful toys? [-1]
By spending a the equivalent of a scene worth of time to contact your magical fixer, you may obtain a specific potion or other single-use magical trinket.  It's strength is equal to your Resources skill.  Each time you do this, you gain a favor owed to your sponsor (up to a maximum number equal to your Persuasion); each favor represents a compel that the sponsor can call upon, granting you no Fate for accepting.  If you refuse a favor, you lose this stunt (and will be unlikely to find another sponsor willing to grant such favors in the future).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 10, 2011, 04:37:12 AM
I don't think a Pure Mortal would be able to use Enchanted Items, they wouldn't know how. I haven't read all of the Dresden books yet so if there is an example of a Pure Mortal using one than I shall stand corrected,

Book one - A bunch of mortals were drinking down Third Eye potions.  Also, Dresden gave a potion to Susan and she took it on her own (alas, it was the lust one).
Book three - no, she was a minor talent, but Dresden wasn't sure she was when he lent her his ghost talisman.
Book 5 (I think it was book five) Dresden lent his duster to one of the Church Mice.
Even Hand -
(click to show/hide)
The Warrior - I don't think that the protagonist had any Faith powers, so he would have been a Pure Mortal and was able to use that minor device.

Or to put it another, just because Dresden doesn't usually cook up enchanted items that others can use doesn't mean that it can't be done - in the books.  In the game, there's a rule for "usable by someone else" and I can't see why a Pure Mortal couldn't use an item like that.

Richard
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Vairelome on September 10, 2011, 04:58:04 AM
If you refuse a favor, you lose this stunt (and will be unlikely to find another sponsor willing to grant such favors in the future).

I really, really dislike this caveat.  Sponsor debt on steroids is overkill for balancing a mortal stunt, and the limitation on PC decision-making is a good deal more strict than I'd be comfortable with at my table.

Edit: Grammar.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: ARedthorn on September 10, 2011, 10:20:31 AM
In my case, the item was an armored jacket, that the wizard wanted to provide him... But the wizard didn't have any refresh to spare for another refinement, and the refinement she had was tied up in enhancements.
He was a true faith build, so no issues with being a pure mortal, systems-wise. He was also the only one at the table with refesh to spare, and since he was going to be using the jacket full-time, they asked me if he could pay refresh for it instead.
Option 1: he takes a point of refinement that he funded on his lore of 1 (total item value 4, Armor:1 for 5 uses only by him)... He'd be better off with a concealable vest.
Option 2: she pays a point of refresh she doesn't have (or he pays 2 refresh so he can stunt a better lore trapping off another skill) and ends up with a lore 5 item (total value 8, which is Armor:3 usable 5 times by himself only, or 3 times by anyone). Not worth it either way (wiz becomes unplayable or he spent 2 refresh for it).
Option 3: he pays 1 refresh on her behalf somehow; benefitting from her Lore somehow despite it being his refresh and his item... Same as option 2, nut with shortcuts that left me uneasy.
Option 4: IoP inhuman toughness, with it being story fluff that it's an enchanted item from her. The Catch was that it didn't protect his face or legs (hoodie), so  anything specifically targetting those would bypass it altogether. 1 refresh, and it has the RAW stamp of approval. The player and I agreed it seemed like our best choice.

I honestly couldn't come up with anything better short of inventing some new house rule without any real idea if it was balanced or not.
Some of what's been tossed around here sounds decent, but nothing strikes me as perfect... Yet.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 10, 2011, 12:12:39 PM
Maintaining them is another matter.

What's there to maintain?  From the descriptions in the book, all of Harry enchanted items either require no maintenance (his duster), or maintain themselves (his force ring recharges itself as he moves his hand, and his shielding bracelet recharges by sucking magic out of the very environment).

Anyway, here's my dilemma in a nutshell...  It not so much that pure mortals are or are not allowed to use enchanted items -- by the rules, they can, and there enough examples in the books to support it.  The question is, A) how can we shift the burden of the fate refresh, etc. from the wizard donating the item to the mortal using the item, B) what should be the total cost to the mortal, and D) how many/how powerful should the items he can carry be?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 10, 2011, 07:51:26 PM
What's there to maintain?  From the descriptions in the book, all of Harry enchanted items either require no maintenance (his duster), or maintain themselves (his force ring recharges itself as he moves his hand, and his shielding bracelet recharges by sucking magic out of the very environment).

He's mentioned re-tattooing his duster, maintenance.  His rings require energy be absorbed by say punching a heavy bag, maintenance. Those are the only two enchanted items he uses with any regularity.

His shield bracelet is a focus item, it's not enchanted.  Same with his staff and blasting rod.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 10, 2011, 11:29:48 PM
If you didn't have to maintain items, you could just make as many as you wanted.

I do not think it should be possible to take the refresh burden away from the crafter with a stunt. Wouldn't allow it with Refinement, either. Would allow it with a custom power.

I don't really like Becq and InferrumVeritas's attempts. Too complicated and too reliable. This is one thing that I think is best handled on a case-by-case basis with copious GM discretion.

Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 13, 2011, 12:36:19 PM
If you didn't have to maintain items, you could just make as many as you wanted.

Put that way, it makes more sense...  It's the available slots that sort of represent the maintenance time and cost.

I do not think it should be possible to take the refresh burden away from the crafter with a stunt. Wouldn't allow it with Refinement, either. Would allow it with a custom power.

Out of curiosity, why not?  Why require a stunt?  Just because of the extra refresh cost of taking away the mortal bonus?

This is one thing that I think is best handled on a case-by-case basis with copious GM discretion.

That might be the best way for me to handle it in the end, but I still want to explore some guidelines for it, just to be a little prepared.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 14, 2011, 01:14:27 AM
I wouldn't allow people to take over the maintenance of magic items without a spellcasting power or an "item maintenance" power because I think that maintaining magical items requires magic.

Taking Refinement without spellcasting just seems wrong, although there's no actual rule against it as far as I know. If I were to make an "item maintenance" power, it would pretty much be Refinement with a slight reflavouring. Might also allow the extra use for mental stress thing with it, or maybe not.

I would probably say that a roll of X would usually get you an X strength item for one of the basic functions. Like an attack or armour.

Each extra use reduces the strength by one.

Weirder items are harder to get, of course. And unless you beat the difficulty substantially, you aren't getting exactly what you want.

Looking for a strength 6 enchanted item armour? If you roll 6 to get it, you'll probably get something with that effect. But it might be a super-tough suit or it might be an amulet that creates a force field or it might be a chainmail bikini that attracts attacks to the armoured part.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Silverblaze on September 14, 2011, 03:26:36 AM
I'd be in favor of a power allowing the use of enchanted items.  treat it like Refinement (but only for enchanted item slots - not focus items, not specializations).  I can see why treating it as a stunt would allow mortals to use enchanted items made for them.  i wouldn't have an issue with it in a game I ran or played in...however...I can see the point that mortals cannot have powers or they lose the +2 refresh.  I can also see that this stunt is far more like a power.

There is no middle ground.  It will simply have to vary from table to table.  There is no right or wrong answer here.  Even in terms of game balance.  I don't like the idea of only spellcasters being able to use magical items ( enchanted items).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 14, 2011, 05:50:08 AM
There is no right or wrong answer here.

Of course there is, whatever answer agrees with mine.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 14, 2011, 01:30:20 PM
Of course there is, whatever answer agrees with mine...

...is what the right answer or the wrong one?   ;D

Now, I've got a little bit different point of view on it than you, Sanctaphrax, but I understand where you're coming from.  It just seems to me that there is a distinct difference between using something, maintaining something and building something.  It's not a perfect example, but consider an automobile...  Most people know how to drive on, while only having a minimal knowledge of how to maintain it past gassing up.  Mechanics can operate them and can repair and thoroughly maintain them when they break, but wouldn't necessarily know how to design or build a car from scratch.  For that, you'd need an automotive engineer.

For my purposes, I'm looking for the magic item equivalent of someone floating between "driver" and "mechanic"...  Someone who knows how to drive, and can do the basic preventative maintenance, but who would have to go to the mechanic for any major repairs.  Does that make sense?

This would be a person who has no innate magic of their own, and so cannot create enchanted items or repair broken enchanted items, but knows how to use them and perform the most basic maintenance on them to keep them charged and working, and also has connections for acquiring them.

I've got an idea that might work (for me and my group, at least).  I'll want you guys to take a look at it, but let me think it for just a little bit more, first.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 14, 2011, 07:46:34 PM
...is what the right answer or the wrong one?   ;D

Depends on if the question involves dating and/or alcohol.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 15, 2011, 02:19:15 AM
I think that maintaining magic items involves recasting the spells on them.

So the idea of maintaining an item without magic makes little sense to me.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 15, 2011, 02:01:38 PM
I think that maintaining magic items involves recasting the spells on them.

So the idea of maintaining an item without magic makes little sense to me.

Oh, I understand where you're coming from...  I just don't necessarily agree. To me, (using my earlier imperfect example) it's almost like saying that you need to rebuild your car from scratch every time you want fill the tank with gas, or that you need to be a programmer to scan for viruses on your computer.

Perhaps we've got different ideas of what "maintenance" entails?

That said, I think it would at the very least require a modest understanding of how magic works, even if you can't actually cast magic spells yourself.  That might be considered enough to knock out the Pure Mortal refresh bonus, though.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: ways and means on September 15, 2011, 04:15:51 PM
The is president for  pcs to take up the refinement cost of another enchanters crafting (warden swords) so as long as a pc has some fasility for the maintanace of such an item (all the wardens are wizards) so the arguement in my mind comes from whether a stunt could justify maintanance. For the original question I woul just give the man of god a 1 refresh power to maintain enchanted items and have him buy refinement as usual.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 16, 2011, 04:47:52 AM
I hate to bring up an example from the novels, but I'm pretty sure Harry talks about how he has to recast the spells on his staff from time to time. And Bob says that all magic fades away over time unless linked to a bloodline, I think.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Silverblaze on September 16, 2011, 05:45:41 AM
I hate to bring up an example from the novels, but I'm pretty sure Harry talks about how he has to recast the spells on his staff from time to time. And Bob says that all magic fades away over time unless linked to a bloodline, I think.
It sucks, but I think you're right.

Sort of like recharging items in D&D.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 16, 2011, 12:22:46 PM
So just for posterity, here's the final version of the stunt that we use for the one (significantly behind the power curve) pure mortal in our game.

Collector of the Arcane (Resources)
Once per scene, for a fate point, you may declare that you have a minor magical trinket (potion or single use enchanted item) on hand.  The strength of the item is equal to your Resources roll (possibly restricted by Lore, at GM's discretion).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Silverblaze on September 16, 2011, 04:05:37 PM
Sounds okay to me. 
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 16, 2011, 07:06:53 PM
I hate to bring up an example from the novels, but I'm pretty sure Harry talks about how he has to recast the spells on his staff from time to time. And Bob says that all magic fades away over time unless linked to a bloodline, I think.

Fair enough...  I'm not perfectly conversant in the books (I've only read through Fool Moon, so far), but that sounds familiar.  And I'd rather be consistent, if I can.

So, Plan B (which is not so different from my original plan):

First, we have Focus Items, which are only really useful to spellcasters so we'll ignore them, Potions, which practically anyone cause anyway so we won't worry about them, and Enchanted Items, which require a certain amount of magical upkeep and will cause us problems.

It's established that Enchanted Items need to recharge between uses, and there's indication that most of them will tend to do this naturally on their own by drawing magical energies from the environment -- that's dealt with by only allowing a certain number of uses per session.

It's also heavily implicated that Enchanted Items require occasional repair, upkeep and maintenance, and that this upkeep is magical in nature.  It would seem that in the game this is emulated through the limited Focus Item and Enchanted Item slots, and the fact that normally only wizards have access to those slots.  Also, that anyone with available Item slots can take over the "maintenance" of an enchanted item, even though they didn't make it.  Finally, that untrained mortals can use enchanted items, but not necessarily take care of them.

So, what I need is a power that gives a "mortal" just enough magical ability to use and maintain enchanted items, without having enough talent to actually cast spells.  The Minor Abilities category of powers seems perfect for this sort of thing, I think...  Mana Static is a good example of a turning a single innate ability of Wizards into a Minor Ability (and likewise, while there's nothing in the novels to support Mana Static, to my knowledge, there's also nothing to contradict it).

So, I think we can now all agree that the real limitation here is the ability to maintain enchanted items.  Since the game uses item slots for that, rules-wise I think all we need to do is create a power (that's right, a power, not a stunt) that gives out a handful of enchanted item slots without granting any real spellcasting ability.

All the spellcasting powers -- Evocation (-3 refresh), Channeling (-2), Thaumaturgy (-3) and Rituals (-2) -- grant 4 Enchanted Item slots (2 Focus Item slots, really) for free in addition to spellcasting ability.  Also, for -1 refresh, Refinement may grant 4 Enchantment Item slots as one of it's options...  a perfect place to start.

In addition, I'd like to add some very basic rules for acquiring magical items outside of making them yourself.  After all, only Thaumaturgy guarantees the ability to make your own magical items -- if a wizard doesn't know Thaumaturgy or Channeling (Crafting), where does he get his magic items from?  I think the SotC rules for purchasing gadets might provide a basis for this.

So, how about a -1 refresh power that grants 4 Enchantment Item slots, plus the means to use Contacting and Resources to get a hold of Enchanted Items and Potions (given enough time)?  There are a few other possible options, though, that I'd like your opinions on...


Thoughts?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 16, 2011, 10:03:42 PM
I wouldn't say most items recharge themselves but if you can work out a justification of how they do then I don't see any reason for the ones your character ends up with to need recharging.  The maintenance on the items doesn't come off to me as physical so much as topping up the spell on the item since it will wear down sunrise by sunrise, seems like that would require you to be able to cast the original spell.  That, in turn, would kind of necessitate that you understand the spell used in its creation either by having the crafter explain it or by using the Sight.

A Lore roll might suffice for that too but I'd also think you'd need good enough skills to craft the item yourself were you a wizard, though maybe at a 1/3 or 1/4 discount.  Wouldn't do to have your character able to recharge three use, eight shift fireball wands if you had Mediocre Discipline, Conviction, and Lore.

Those arguments aside, I don't see this being a bad power as long as you can justify it mechanics and story-wise.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 17, 2011, 12:15:08 AM
I wouldn't say most items recharge themselves but if you can work out a justification of how they do then I don't see any reason for the ones your character ends up with to need recharging.
 

The obvious example is from the novels...  Harry's rings.  They recharge by automatically storing up kinetic energy as he moves his hands normally throughout the day (though actively hitting a punching seems to accelerate the process).  In that instance, the user doesn't need to do anything magical to replenish the spell, aside from knowing and understanding the mechanism by which it's replenished.

The maintenance on the items doesn't come off to me as physical so much as topping up the spell on the item since it will wear down sunrise by sunrise, seems like that would require you to be able to cast the original spell.

Ah, I see now.

See, I viewed it more like a battery...  You just need to know how to pump magical energy back into the spell that's already there.  And you'd only need to recast the spell, should the item get damaged (like when Harry's shield bracelet gets burnt out protecting him from that elevator fall) and need to be repaired.

That, in turn, would kind of necessitate that you understand the spell used in its creation either by having the crafter explain it or by using the Sight.

Then how would you explain spellcasters with magical items that use spells that they can't cast?  For example, I could make a character with just the Ritual power (or just Thaumaturgy, for that matter), and then give him an Enchanted Item that shoots lightning bolts a few times per session.  He can keep it, use it, recharge it and maintain it, and it's perfectly legal by the rules, even though he can't cast lightning spells or even any kind of Evocation at all.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 17, 2011, 10:54:18 PM
Then how would you explain spellcasters with magical items that use spells that they can't cast?  For example, I could make a character with just the Ritual power (or just Thaumaturgy, for that matter), and then give him an Enchanted Item that shoots lightning bolts a few times per session.  He can keep it, use it, recharge it and maintain it, and it's perfectly legal by the rules, even though he can't cast lightning spells or even any kind of Evocation at all.

Mostly I'd just say they don't need someone to explain it to them since they're the one creating the item in the first place.  It's like not needing a repair manual if you designed the car.  That's if I had to GM a game that allowed Ritual/Thaumaturgy crafters.  Personally, I don't allow them.

The obvious example is from the novels...  Harry's rings.  They recharge by automatically storing up kinetic energy as he moves his hands normally throughout the day (though actively hitting a punching seems to accelerate the process).  In that instance, the user doesn't need to do anything magical to replenish the spell, aside from knowing and understanding the mechanism by which it's replenished.

And then you have his duster, which doesn't.  If it's important to you that they do though, you'll probably pick up items that do by preference.  Kind of a non-issue.

Ah, I see now.

See, I viewed it more like a battery...  You just need to know how to pump magical energy back into the spell that's already there.  And you'd only need to recast the spell, should the item get damaged (like when Harry's shield bracelet gets burnt out protecting him from that elevator fall) and need to be repaired.

Yeah, I could see it going either way.  It's a GM's choice thing until Jim or the fine folks what made the DFRPG give us a ruling.

EDIT: formatting error
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Pbartender on September 18, 2011, 12:17:39 AM
Mostly I'd just say they don't need someone to explain it to them since they're the one creating the item in the first place.

But how do you create the item, if you don't know the spell you're putting into it?  And especially, if insist the knowing the original spell is required to maintain it.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 18, 2011, 01:23:15 AM
But how do you create the item, if you don't know the spell you're putting into it?  And especially, if insist the knowing the original spell is required to maintain it.

See the bit about me not allowing Rituals/Thaumaturgy-only crafters.  I don't allow anyone to create an item with a spell they couldn't also cast.  If they can't cast Channeling/Evocation, they can't make items with them.  If they can't do water evo, they can't make water evo items.  If they have nothing but Rituals and put everything into item crafting, they can't make much of anything.

That's my campaigns though.  I don't go retroactively screwing with someone else's settings and characters if I end up GMing something in their world.

EDIT: typo
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on September 18, 2011, 02:38:39 AM
See the bit about me not allowing Rituals/Thaumaturgy-only crafters.  I don't allow anyone to create an item with a spell they couldn't also cast.  If they can't cast Channeling/Evocation, they can't make items with them.  If they can't do water evo, they can't make water evo items.  If they have nothing but Rituals and put everything into item crafting, they can't make much of anything.

That's my campaigns though.  I don't go retroactively screwing with someone else's settings and characters if I end up GMing something in their world.

EDIT: typo

See, I take the idea that Harry could do a perfect veil if he had all the time in the world and was meditating, not under stress, etc. even as early as Storm Front to mean that with Thaumaturgy, you can do any of evocation's effects, they just take a while.  Evocation is doing those effects quickly, channeling raw energy as opposed to performing a ritual to do so.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 18, 2011, 03:00:25 AM
See, I take the idea that Harry could do a perfect veil if he had all the time in the world and was meditating, not under stress, etc. even as early as Storm Front to mean that with Thaumaturgy, you can do any of evocation's effects, they just take a while.  Evocation is doing those effects quickly, channeling raw energy as opposed to performing a ritual to do so.

That's fine.  Enjoy.  I don't really disallow them for those reasons, that's just how I mechanically reason it out for the characters.  I disallow it because it lets a FP crafter with a -7 refresh easily dish out ten times the damage a proper wizard could with the same refresh over the course of a non-trivial fight.  I don't like to constantly be figuring ways around the same thing to keep a character from stealing every combat scene.  It's no fun for me and it's certainly no fun for them.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 19, 2011, 03:48:42 AM
Was going to participate in Crafter debate, then realized it was likely to cause a derail.

As for the power:

Definitely don't make it -0. If it were -0, then why wouldn't everyone take it?

And don't give a non-mechanical answer. Balancing crunch with fluff leads to people having to choose between playing what they want to play and getting the most out of their character, which is bad.

I'd say that 2 refresh would be enough for:

4 slots.
Ability to use Contacts and Resources to get items.
Ability to maintain items.
Ability to get extra uses of EIs with mental stress.
Ability to Declare potions on the fly, with story of how you got them.
Ability to buy Refinement for more slots.
Starting with a selection of weak items.

Basically, it's Ritual (Crafting) with Contacts/Resources rolls instead of actual Crafting.

Chop off some of that if you only want it to cost 1 refresh.

Bear in mind that owing to this game's basic structure this power will always have balance problems.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Becq on September 19, 2011, 10:33:15 PM
I agree with Mighty Buzzard's handling, and the reasons for doing so.
See, I take the idea that Harry could do a perfect veil if he had all the time in the world and was meditating, not under stress, etc. even as early as Storm Front to mean that with Thaumaturgy, you can do any of evocation's effects, they just take a while.  Evocation is doing those effects quickly, channeling raw energy as opposed to performing a ritual to do so.
Note that Harry has full Thaumaturgy, not just rituals.  He also has Spirit Evocation and can (theoretically) cast Evocation veils.  He's just not particularly good at it, due largely to compels against the "Not So Subtle" half of one of his aspects.  When given time to build the spell up slowly, however, he can do it, because he has full Thaum.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: ways and means on September 19, 2011, 11:13:29 PM
Thaumaturgy can do pretty much anything with enough time, so enchanted items which are a type of Thaumaturgy (and can cast Thaumaturgical spells anyway which are usually stronger than evocation) can do pretty much anything (obviously limited by scale). Even with your rule that doesn't stop pure Thaumaturgy crafter weaponising Thaumaturgy spells to attack an enemy (attack of a summoned creatures, transformation, wall of conjured blades etc) or creating veils etc (which are Thaumaturgy spells as well).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 20, 2011, 12:12:12 AM
Thaumaturgy can do pretty much anything with enough time, so enchanted items which are a type of Thaumaturgy (and can cast Thaumaturgical spells anyway which are usually stronger than evocation) can do pretty much anything (obviously limited by scale). Even with your rule that doesn't stop pure Thaumaturgy crafter weaponising Thaumaturgy spells to attack an enemy (attack of a summoned creatures, transformation, wall of conjured blades etc) or creating veils etc (which are Thaumaturgy spells as well).

Yes, but if you let a Rituals(crafting)+Refinement character go entirely that way, a -15 cost character could take out Kemmler and anything he could throw at them.  It gets ridiculous very fast.  Which may be why Refinement is specifically allowed unlimited for Wizards, specifically one time each for evo/thaum for Sorcerors, and not mentioned at all for FP's.  Because they're not supposed to be able to take it at all.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 20, 2011, 12:37:51 AM
Please, let's not have the Crafter debate here. It's taken over too many good threads already.

I disagree strongly with what you just said, Mighty Buzzard. Make a new thread if you want to find out why.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on September 20, 2011, 12:47:09 AM
Please, let's not have the Crafter debate here. It's taken over too many good threads already.

I disagree strongly with what you just said, Mighty Buzzard. Make a new thread if you want to find out why.

Nah, I don't particularly care if others want to run crafter character campaigns or why.  I just don't care for them.  But yeah, we've wandered off-topic enough.