ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JediDresden on September 08, 2011, 08:11:24 PM
-
I have never designed a ward in the game before. I need a preety high complex challenging one for the group in the big climax of the game. I need something to keep my BBG safe until the thaumaturgy ward specialist wizard in the group can take it down. So I need it to be powerful and be able to stop physical things, ie bullets, as well as magic energy and mortals. oh and if possible spiritual energy as well.
I know it will be a big spell but the bad guy has been preparing for this for a long time so powerful is ok, I just want to do it by the rules as much as possible. the bad guy is as powerful as I need him to be, probably lre o 5 and some lawbreakers in there if it will help. He is kind of a puppetmaster and they have not really wencountered him beofre this climax. Necromantic and conjuration focuses probably.
Any hlp would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
-
A ward by default stops just about everything. So there's no need to worry about that.
If you put the ward strength at 18 or so, you can be pretty confident that they won't get past without thaumaturgy or an excessive number of Declarations. So you can ensure that they will be slowed while giving your ward specialist a chance to shine.
You can include landmines if you want to make things more interesting, but it's a bit pointless if the players are expected to take the thing down with thaumaturgy. Landmines are more for defending against attempts at straightforwardly beating the ward down.
-
Well, a submerged wizard can bring down an 18-shift ward;
1) Lore roll (or open the Sight) to see how big the Ward is.
2) Discipline maneuver in the same exchange to apply "Focused" aspect on self.
3) Wizard burns his 4th mental stress box, his 2 mild mental consequences, his moderate consequence and his spirit power of 7 to call 18 shifts of power.
4) Wizard tags Focused, burns 2 FPs, takes his 4th physical box as backlash and uses his spirit control of 8 to control the shifts.
5) Having called and controlled the shifts, the wizard casts an 18-shift evocation counterspell that removes the Ward outright, no other rolls required.
The above is a two-exchange combo where evocation is used on a massive counterspell. Fastest way to remove thaumaturgy in the 16-20 range (depending on the wizard's power). So a 18-shift Ward is not going to stop a determined wizard, or even slow him. However, most BBEGs prefer enemy wizards spend a spell that can flatten a battleship on their Ward rather than themselves. That's because BBEGs tend to be squishier than battleships.
-
Could I do the same thing with a Magic Circle? I know in Fool Moon there were overlaid circles that kept out certian things (or kept them in as the case may be). I was actually thinking circle when I wrote ward (but I could make it a ward without too much trouble), how bad would that change it if I had overlaping circles that did the same thing?
Also good thing to know about the power levels, I had originally thought about something around a 25 shift ward. the Wizard has several fate points he can spend, so I am not worried about making it a little tough.
-
Well, a submerged wizard can bring down an 18-shift ward;
1) Lore roll (or open the Sight) to see how big the Ward is.
2) Discipline maneuver in the same exchange to apply "Focused" aspect on self.
3) Wizard burns his 4th mental stress box, his 2 mild mental consequences, his moderate consequence and his spirit power of 7 to call 18 shifts of power.
4) Wizard tags Focused, burns 2 FPs, takes his 4th physical box as backlash and uses his spirit control of 8 to control the shifts.
5) Having called and controlled the shifts, the wizard casts an 18-shift evocation counterspell that removes the Ward outright, no other rolls required.
The above is a two-exchange combo where evocation is used on a massive counterspell. Fastest way to remove thaumaturgy in the 16-20 range (depending on the wizard's power). So a 18-shift Ward is not going to stop a determined wizard, or even slow him. However, most BBEGs prefer enemy wizards spend a spell that can flatten a battleship on their Ward rather than themselves. That's because BBEGs tend to be squishier than battleships.
Three exchanges. That will bring the ward strength down to mediocre, but you'll need to bring it down to -4 to totally remove it. Which is important if there's a landmine on it.
-
Could I do the same thing with a Magic Circle? I know in Fool Moon there were overlaid circles that kept out certian things (or kept them in as the case may be). I was actually thinking circle when I wrote ward (but I could make it a ward without too much trouble), how bad would that change it if I had overlaping circles that did the same thing?
Also good thing to know about the power levels, I had originally thought about something around a 25 shift ward. the Wizard has several fate points he can spend, so I am not worried about making it a little tough.
A magic circle is basically just a ward that's a circle instead of hooked on to a threshold.
-
@zenten: Explain the three rounds to me. I missed that.
-
Circles have no mechanics. You'll have to make it up.
Belial's example is theoretically possible but rather improbable. It involves a specialized evoker burning everything he's got in one spell, and risking a severe consequence if he rolls badly on control.
Also, Counterspells are a little complex IIRC. You first have to make a Lore assessment, and I think you have to account for shifts of complexity allocated to duration.
So really, I would not worry at all about Belial's example. It's almost certainly not going to happen.
-
JediDresden: 3 rounds or another 4 shifts to totally take down the ward.
Although now that I think about that more it's not 18 shifts to bring the ward down to mediocre, but 36. The ward lowers any effect to bypass/destroy it by 18 shifts, but then you still need to spend another 18 shifts to lower it to mediocre (40 total to destroy it). Well out of range of evocation.
-
Belial was suggesting a counterspell, which is different from a simple attack.
I'd give a page reference if my books were on hand.
-
If you want to keep them working on getting through the ward for a while, you could build a layered ward instead of one with high numbers. Make the outer layer of the ward around 4-5 shifts, nothing fancy, easy to break through. Once it is broken (which can also happen by someone trying to force his way inside), the real wards spring up. The next layer is still nothing too fancy, maybe 2 shifts better, but it will activate another level, and by then the wards specialist should realize, that this is not the way to go about it. He has to sever the connection between the layers, so the next layers won't be activated, when he breaks down the active wall. Ward 3 and above should have some nasty things built in, just to get the message across, that every layer will be worse than the last. I would let the wards specialist take down different aspects of a layer individually, as long as he was able to make them out through a lore roll. Sort of like the wizards equivalent to hacking, I suppose.
The concept should be especially fitting, if the BBG is on the sneaky side of bad, because you don't know how many layers you'll get, what the actual strength of the fortifications are. The next layer could be the last, or it could activate another ward while firing a bolt of lightning at you.
It is more of a mind game than just brute forcing your way through, and I think a wards specialist might enjoy something like this more than just hulk smashing through a magical brick wall.
-
1) A counterspell is not an attack; if it meets the number of shifts in the enemy spell, the enemy spell is dispelled outright.
2) A wizard has the Sight. They can use it directly or indirectly to see exactly what magic has been woven, especially if they open it.
3) If you layer multiple wards, the wizard can go for a Disjunction; make a counterspell to match the bigger spell, then add area effect to also remove any weaker spells in the area.
Magic is both art based on intuition, and right planning based on information. If your group doesn't think to use the Sight to see the Wards, even small protections become challenges. If they do think to use it, then make sure your Ward is big enough to resist the Greater Dispelling/Disjuction attempt.
-
Haru: I like the idea of a layered ward. I think I might use it. Thanks.
-
So a 18-shift Ward is not going to stop a determined wizard, or even slow him.
Sure it will. All that counterspell would result in is the attacking wizard's choice of a reduction in ward strength of 1, or a 1-shift attack reaching a target inside the ward (but leaving the ward at full strength), according to YS276. And since the very determined (and admittedly optimized) wizard just managed to inflict three consequences and several stress boxes on himself, this would be an ideal time for the villain's allies (lying in ambush nearby) to counterattack!
To drop the ward (completely) with a single evocation would require a 40 shift attack or 36 shift counterspell, I think. In the case of an attack spell, this would reduce the strength of the ward to -4, thus nullifying it. In the case of the counterspell, the ward would block the first 18, letting the remaining 18 shifts 'through' to counter the ward, also nullifying it.
-
Pretty sure that that is incorrect.
Please reread the section on counterspells, page 253 of YS.
Regardless, the evocation counterspell is an edge case. If it really bothers you, just bump the ward power up to 22 or so.
If I were to go with layered wards, I'd try a different landmine on each. One is an attack evocation, one is a summoning spell, one is a divination that tells the caster about the PCs' abilities...
-
Nothing about the Counterspell rules say that they will bypass the Block effect of a Ward. In fact, it even says that it works like an attack. Unless the ward was keyed to ignore the counterspeller's magic of course.
-
It says that the spell targeted disappears if you beat its power. Seems simple enough to me.
-
Sure, and the ward section says that anything targetting it or what's beyond the ward has a Block on it.
-
He is kind of a puppetmaster and they have not really wencountered him beofre this climax. Necromantic and conjuration focuses probably.
A 25+ ward from a mind, necromantic, and conjuration focused wizard? How about something like this...
5 shift mind affecting veil - "This isn't the house you're looking for..."
8 shifts into the ward barrier itself
choose one:
- 12 shifts into summoning a swarm of minor imps (10 into the imps + 2 for the trigger)
- 12 shifts into an enervating block against movement (8 shift block + 2 for zone + 2 for trigger)
Get's you a 25 shift ward which will a) make the house seem innocuous, b) create an 8 shift barrier and an 8 shift suppression of supernatural abilities, and c) either summon minor imps or make movement through at least one area extremely difficult.
That said, if the guy has resources and plenty of time, he should be capable of even more shifts in his ward. Twenty five isn't much for a long term residence - though it's probably appropriate for a short term residence.
Almost forgot, you do need to add shifts for duration to the above ward. So 12 more shifts if you want it to last for a mortal lifetime.
-
It says that the spell targeted disappears if you beat its power. Seems simple enough to me.
Below I have quoted the very first paragraph beneath the Counterspell heading from YS253, please note the portion I bolded.
Counterspell
If a wizard is in the presence of a magical effect, he can attempt to nullify it with the power of his will alone. Even though counterspells are an evocation effect, they can be used to disrupt thaumaturgy. While such an attempt may only be temporary, it can buy the wizard precious time.
The way I interpret that, is that a counterspell potentially nullifies the effects of a spell as it happens (Evocation) or can potentially nullify a spell/effect with a duration (Thaumaturgy) temporarily.
I would also like to point out that the wizard attempting an 18 shift counterspell as described above will also have to take a Severe and a Moderate consequence at a minimum, not two Minor consequences and a Moderate, assuming of course they are successful in summoning 18 shifts of power. A bad roll of the dice would immediately cause the counterspell to fail, and the wizard would still end up taking mental stress...
My reasoning is this. A Counterspell is an Evocation effect, it is essentially described as an attack spell with a target of the spell being counterspelled/nullified. In order for the Counterspell to nullify an 18-shift Ward, that means an 18-shift Evocation effect is required. The RAW on YS255 state:
You can channel a number of shifts in power equal to your Conviction with a minimum of impact—just one point of mental stress.
This is then followed up on YS256 with:
Every shift of power you summon past your Conviction costs one additional point of mental stress during casting;
If the wizard has a Conviction of Superb (+5), then an 18-shift Evocation would cause the Wizard to take 14 boxes of Mental stress. Any specialty in Spirit (Power) makes it easier for the wizard to summon the power, but the wizard still suffers from summoning that much power, since it is still past his Conviction skill level.
In short, the wizard would take some significant harm to nullify the Ward, wouldn't completely negate the Ward, and would at best have a Minor consequence, a Minor Mental consequence, and an Extreme consequence remaining, as well as Physical stress having been taking and possibly Mental stress as well. All before even managing to enter the BBEG's lair, where those consequences the character took can/should/would be used against them...
-Cheers
Edit: Additional comments. From the Counterspelling rules on YS253, there is no mention of using particular elements for the Counterspell. In fact, from the example given, Harry didn't get any Power or Control bonuses to attempt to counterspell, nor was any mention made of what element Harry was using. This would mean that a wizard's ability to counterspell is completely reliant on the wizard's Conviction, Discipline and Lore skills, as well as the number of stress boxes and consequences the wizard has available and is willing to use. I mention Lore as well because even if the wizard was to use the Sight to see the Ward, they would still need to make a Lore check to correctly determine how much power was required to counterspell the Ward.
-
1) The basic conflict actions of evocation are; attack, block, maneuver, counterspell. Do note that counterspell is different than an attack.
2) A Ward reflects total shifts, not an attack roll. So a 18-shift evocation will not be reflected by an 18-shift Ward, even if its attack roll is lower than 18.
3) A wizard without specializations/foci with superb skills has 5 power/5 control +1 free specialization from Evocation. A fully specialized submerged wizard with foci might well reach 9 power, 10 control in his specialization. My aiming for 7 power 8 control is rather average.
-
It seems that the counterspell rules are even more ambiguous than I had assumed.
"May only be temporary" is a very slippery phrase.
And that's just the start of the confusion.
I would love to argue my side further, but I don't think I can prove anything.
Although I will say that I think you can counterspell with whatever element seems appropriate.
PS: 8 control and 7 power is not average at all. Many wizard characters have non-wizard character elements that move their refresh and skill points away from evocation. Or they specialize in thaumaturgy.
Now, a non-thaumaturge wizard without some nonmagical gimmick built by you or I will likely have Conviction 5 Discipline 5 and appropriate specializations/foci. But most people don't approach this sort of thing the way you and I do. Most people don't optimize at all. I think the average is more like 5 shifts of evocation.
Take a look at canonical spellcasting NPCs. The first thing that should strike you is the sheer amount of wasted refresh. And the average spellcasting PC has a fair bit in common with those NPCs.
I think.
-
Apparently I hit something that submitted my post well before I finished writing (and, as it turns out, completely revising) it. See my post below.
-
Eh, no.
There is a third possibility.
Counterspells work just as well against wards as they do against other forms of Thaumaturgy.
Now, which choice is correct is uncertain.
But that third choice is there.
-
Meh. I put down an offensive block vs magic on the ward itself. Blocks don't require attack rolls so either way you take it, the result is the same; the Ward is prevented from acting by the block. Now the party just walks through unopposed.
Ditto from putting a veil on the Ward (or yourself), so that the Ward does not detect your presence as hostile and doesn't activate as you pass.
Third option is using poison gas; Sarin is a good option. Since wards aren't airtight (ppl inside still breathe), whoever is inside is toasted.
Fourth option is to use earth magic to tunnel under the house, circumventing the Ward.
Fifth option is to make a big circle around the house with the caster inside. Activate the circle then the group's caster uses up the magic in the very limited place. Not only the Ward falls but anyone inside cannot complete any weird rituals either.
Sixth option is to steal a fire truck and a hundred pounds of salt, then hose down the ward with salt water.
Seventh option is to get a piece of Mordite from the Outside then throw it at the ward.
-
But the Ward's block would block the offensive block.
-
Blocks are all-or-nothing and ties go to the attacker. Under most circumstances, an offensive block trying to surpress a defensive block of the same number of shifts is going to "win".
-
The basic disagreement here comes down to what I believe is either a miswording or an attempt to interpret too literally.
I think (or hope) we all agree that wards have some form of effect on any form of energy that tries to pass through; the text specifically mentions that it works against both physical and magical, and examples include everything from the kinetic energy of a person walking to spells. (It seems clear to me that the intention is for wards to comprehensively apply to all means of intrusion or attack past the boundaries protected by the ward.)
I think we can also all agree that to the extent that it is successful, a ward is intended to reflect whatever hits it back against whoever did the hitting. Sufficiently strong effects can get through in some form.
The disagreement is caused by the specific word "attack" used when describing how the ward attenuates stuff that penetrates it. But note that in the paragraph just before, the designers used the word "attacker" to refer to anyone who causes an "effect" to "hit" the ward. This makes it clear (to me, at least) that the designers meant "attacker" to be interpreted generally to apply to anyone who tries to do something across a ward, regardless of intention. If someone tried to cast a heal spell through the ward, the ward would respond to the spell as an "attack", and would reflect it back on the "attacker".
Because of this, it seems clear that the following paragraph is also intended to be interpreted generally. Any effect that is strong enough (as measured in shifts) to bypass the ward has the ward's strength subtracted from its shifts, with the remaining shift applied either to the ward construct or another target in the ward. And similarly, to "attack" the ward (in the general sense of trying to affect it by any means) requires you to penetrate the ward first. This would include counterspells.
-
It seems that the counterspell rules are even more ambiguous than I had assumed.
"May only be temporary" is a very slippery phrase.
And that's just the start of the confusion.
I would love to argue my side further, but I don't think I can prove anything.
Although I will say that I think you can counterspell with whatever element seems appropriate.
Agreed, the counterspell rules are somewhat ambiguous, and likely absent word from Fred and/or others at Evil Hat, some of the way counterspelling 'works' would have to be house-ruled to ensure consistency.
Having said that, neither the rules nor example given made any mention of using a specific element when counterspelling. To me, it seems to make sense that it is more about the amount of raw power (Conviction) the wizard attempting the counterspell can handle, than being particularly good at handling Spirit-based magic for instance. My reasoning behind this (please feel free to poke holes in my logic) is how relevant or rather irrelevant is a wizard's facility with Spirit-based Evocations, when attempting to nullify an active Biomancy effect? I don't see how it would, but then part of that has to do with how I 'see' the magic.
As the RAW covers, the Conviction skill represents the amount of raw power a practioner can call. Next come specializations, which mechanically boost the Conviction and Discipline skill levels, when the practioner is working within the specialty. After this comes the focus items, which can mechanically boost the Conviction and/or Discipline skill levels, again when working within the appropriate specialty and depending on what is being done, the correct type of magic (offensive, defensive, etc). What the RAW doesn't cover, is whether the use of specialties and/or focus items actually summons more power, or is a way to represent the character just being more efficient with the power they can draw. My interpretation of the novels (Small Favor, Changes and Ghost Story in particular) has me treating specializations and focus items as being more efficient uses of called power, not as things which actually call more power.
-Cheers
-
But the Ward's block would block the offensive block.
This.
The ward, as written, violates the way blocks work. As it is written, it is basically a construct (with 'hit points' based on the strength of the ward) that continuously projects around itself and everything inside the warded area a block. Whereas a normal block disipates once breach, a ward does not disipate until the contruct is destroyed, but is weakened as the construct is damaged. The ward energy eminates from the construct, which is inside the warded area, so the attacking the energy itself does nothing (it's just immediately renewed, just as the ward is immediately renewed each time an attack penetrates it).
Frankly, if wards were as weak as some folk are indicating, then why bother with a ward at all? The "pretty high" strength ward mentioned (a legendary strength of 8(!)) could be knocked over by any 2-bit evoker with a couple of aspects to tag.