ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Discipol on August 24, 2011, 06:22:18 PM
-
Since one can just fly a zone upwards and shoot downwards until the enemy is dead, also making one immune to melee attacks, Fly is OP at just -1 cost.
My friend had the brilliant idea to add another skill called Flight for one that purchases Fly. Of course, assisted with some trappings, like fly-by attacks and perhaps using another skill to limit the Flight skill.
For example:
Athletics, for angelic wings.
Conviction for Green Lantern sort of flight source.
Craftsmanship for jet pack (say an item of power).
Lore for some sort of passive magic effect (something I would expect from Leanasidhe).
Etc...
I am adding the need to raise Fly to -2.
Your thoughts?
-
Flight might be a bit overpowered, but you can counter it a bit.
Guns are pretty easy to come by, especially for villainous minions. Put the sword down and use an assault rifle.
Flying makes you a target, a target that pretty much everyone on the ground can fire at.
Flight doesn't actually let you move any faster.
-
Add Inhuman Speed or more, pump Athletics to 4. It ignores obstacles and ground related maneuvers like, dunno, quicksand.
-
Simple, remind them that a consequence taken while flying could very well leave them unable to fly. No need to nerf it when a minor consequence could very well leave them taking a severe or extreme consequence (or even be taken out) from the subsequent fall.
-
Flying implies considering 3d zones and falling damage calculations. If the player risks the GM keeping score of all that, he should expect to die :) Seriously, warning a player sounds like "I am limiting how much fun you have due to ambiguous rules".
-
Guns are pretty easy to come by, especially for villainous minions. Put the sword down and use an assault rifle.
Don't need a gun when you've got Ye Old Lightning Bolttm :) If you don't have the Speed powers, keeping up the flying would be a supp. action with a -1 penalty too. But tactically... yeah, someone made the point, flying folks make tempting targets. Keep it up often enough and your opposition will either start bringing in their own aerial support, or have a solution to help mitigate it.
I don't really see a need to bump up the cost any... just reasonably address it within the game's story.
-
Its -1. Suppose all pcs get it. All melee enemies with no guns or magic are toast.
-
Flying implies considering 3d zones and falling damage calculations. If the player risks the GM keeping score of all that, he should expect to die :) Seriously, warning a player sounds like "I am limiting how much fun you have due to ambiguous rules".
More like warning them ahead of time not to get cocky and think it makes them invulnerable so they don't piss and moan if gravity kicks their ass. I'd feel a bit of a dick doing it without warning but I have no problem burying someone's character because they did something astoundingly stupid after I've given them a heads up on possible consequences. YMMV
-
Flying implies considering 3d zones and falling damage calculations. If the player risks the GM keeping score of all that, he should expect to die :) Seriously, warning a player sounds like "I am limiting how much fun you have due to ambiguous rules".
No- but warning them that they might have to make some sort of concentration check/equivalent any time they take a consequence would be both appropriate and provide a challenge.
I do like the idea of forcing some sort of new athletics trapping for flight as a stunt- those who don't take it can still fly, just not well.
Increasing the base cost to -2 on top of that, less so. Your concern about stacking flight with inhuman speed and high athletics is fair- don't get me wrong, but by that point, they've paid for it, and probably dumped so many of their points into it, that it may be their character's defining trait. Stomping on that by increasing cost even further is just as bad as applying your own house rule that limits function.
Making all that nifty power risky though... that's both system and Dresden appropriate.
And if a player STILL abuses it, truthfully, you have the kind of player that could abuse anything if they wanted to, and probably will... so your options are to either completely rewrite the system, kick them out of your game, or plan for it.
EDIT:Its -1. Suppose all pcs get it. All melee enemies with no guns or magic are toast.
If all your PCs get it, then I, as GM would assume they were expecting a more aerial campaign, and would give them that. That means more aerial enemies who can overcome that limitation, and some potentially very fun dogfighting style scenes. Again- it's for you to plan around it- to both make sure anything they purchase is useful & fun, and occasionally dangerous & fun. It's easier, as GM, to do this from the head of the table than from the rulebook, IMO.
-
+4 Athletics is both springing on ground, dodging bullets, etc.
Flying as a new skill would eat all those +4 points.
-
Your main complaint seems to be that opponents who can only attack if they are close are at a serious disadvantage. You are right and they should be at a major disadvantage for limiting their own options so severely. This is only exacerbated when they are fighting someone with a supernatural power that allows them to create that separation.
If you don't want your pcs to get off that easily then have them fight guys with assault rifles, or spell slingers, or whampires with the at range upgrade, or super strength guys who can throw a bus at them.
You are trying to nerf a power so that one limited class of folks can face them on a more equal footing. The problem is it shouldn't be equal because the flyers are attacking them in their offensive weak spot.
-
Not all fights occur on a flat, featureless plain with no ceiling. Flight becomes substantially less meaningful indoors, in heavy fog (can't see more than a zone away), underground, etc.
Inhuman Speed + Wings and taking a high Athletics score is a 3-refresh combo that allows a player to OFTEN (not always) avoid melee attacks and overcome zone borders, as well as be pretty hard to kill in general.
Inhuman Toughness + Inhuman Recovery, a high Endurance score and 1-point catch is a 3-refresh combo that allows a player to take massively more punishment in a fight and head into the next one almost or completely healed, not to mention being potentially nigh-immortal in terms of age, disease, etc.
Evocation and taking decent Discipline and Conviction is a 3-refresh combo that allows a player to throw fireballs, cause earthquakes, and create shields of pure energy.
Thaumaturgy and taking decent Lore, Discipline, and Conviction is a 3-refresh combo that allows a player to summon spirits, craft magic items, exorcise demons, track his enemies, call down curses, and build magical traps.
Honestly, by comparison, I don't see a problem with Wings.
-
Wings is definitely a bit overpowered. It obviates several types of challenge, provides immunity to falling damage, gives the user a significant advantage in combat and beats up Spider Walk for lunch money.
So it's probably worth 2 refresh. 3 is a bit much, but not out of the question. No need for a new skill.
PS: The overpowered-ness of Wings is pretty easy to ignore in play, like many balance problems. I wouldn't expect it to break a game.
-
Here take this +100 Vorpal Sword. Now melee the flying archer to death.
-
While it is true that flight does make you immune to ground based maneuvers it make you vulnerable to whole new ones, like if the day is exceptionally windy those on the ground would be annoyed but not particularly hampered while the airborne person could get swept around. And in order to attack anyone you'd need to fly into their zone anyway so you'll either be vulnerable till your next turn or take the -1 to fly up again. And if you had a way of attacking from a few zones away (gun, breath weapon) you would be rather conspicuous flying around unloading a pistol or breathing fire. Basically the person with flight could easily get compelled to fly to high and have some frightened mortal call the cops, drawing unwanted attention. I know these downsides are nearly all situational but I feel they add up enough to justify the -1 cost. Personally I feel that Crafters and those with the full Incite Emotion tree have a better chance of being OP than flyers.
-
Throw it.
Weapons is good for ranged attacks too.
The real problem is for the guy using Fists. He'll have to rely on Declarations and maneuvers to have a chance. Either that, or he can get indoors.
It sucks for the melee guy, but that's kinda the point. Incite Emotion sucks for the guy with Superb Athletics and Mediocre Discipline. You just have to make sure that it doesn't suck for him more than the refresh cost indicates it should.
-
don't get me started on incite emotion.
statistically, how many npcs DO NOT fly?
-
It doesn't matter how many npcs don't fly. What matters is how many npcs planned their entire offensive strategy around being close enough to shake the guys hand. The answer is only the extremely short sighted ones.
-
don't get me started on incite emotion.
statistically, how many npcs DO NOT fly?
Nearly all I think, Were-forms, some Fae, and Black Court are the only ones that come to mind. But like others have said before me, if there's a PC with flight in the group the GM just needs to throw a flying NPC into the next encounter. Maybe a Wyern is on the loose, or a gang of Were-Hawks are terrorizing a town Hitchcock style.
-
Tell that to all the ogres and trolls that want to eat your face.
-
Here take this +100 Vorpal Sword. Now melee the flying archer to death.
I might request to make a Might Maneuver to create the Aspect "Swordthrow" and invoke it to allow me to throw my sword a few zones. GM can either assign a high DC, or insist that to use it, I need a Fate Point.
-
Too many good ways have been presented to deal with flying characters to warrant a nerf unless your entire campaign is going to be played in empty fields. Even then, any magic using type isn't going to be at a noteworthy disadvantage. Remind them about gravity and let them have fly at -1.
-
To be honest there are other FATE games in which flight costs 2 refresh. I think that the reason it costs less is because the creators didn't see much tactical movement in their games (since the zone sort of discourages that kind of movement and allows the maneuver to take that responsibility). If you see more tactical movement in your games then feel free to increase the cost, but I really wouldn't increase it more than 1 refresh.
Personally I'd just be inclined to plan my games more around that kind of combat as suggested earlier. 3D combat is incredibly fun when it's done right. I was in a Jovian Chronicles game once and we did a combat in zero gravity where we spent much of our time jumping off of objects and each other (and particularly off of the one guy who chose not to pick up zero-g movement, and spent much of the combat flailing comically).
-
I think you're making more of a problem out of this than necessary.
One simple thing: if the creature has actual wings, then it still needs room to use them. Alleys are out of the question in most cases. Please note that the power actually says:
"You have wings of some sort—
gossamer as a faerie, leathery and batlike as a
demon—enabling you to fly."
You want flight without wings? Pay extra, no doubt in my mind about that. You use a jet pack? Good luck maneuvering without constant skill checks to keep the thrust at a certain level in cramped spaces. (Imagine Iron Man in the movie, trying to get that right, but without all the fancy computer tech)
Also, if you're a flying target, without super-speed, expect grenades and rockets to become large troubles. If you are a creature with supernatural speeds, then I'd use nets against them. As was said before, your enemies learn, just as much as you do. Any advantage can be cancelled out. They expect you to take fligt? Expect them to snipe a bullet into your wings/equipment/head before you take off.
Don't forget how birds get the ability to fly: they have very ligt bone structures. A human, with our current physique and weight would need a wingspan of some 12 meters/36 feet to get airborne (if I remember correctly). I know this game is about fantasy, but you could ask a human-like player with wings to take an appropriate aspect. "Screw you guys! I'm not skinny, I'm hollow-boned!"
-
Eh. This game almost never makes cosmetic stuff like having or not having wings matter. Human Guise is free for a reason.
PS: If you have to give people with a given power some kind of drawback not mentioned in the power's effects, it probably means that the power is overpowered.
-
It seems like a lot of the objections to flight involve super-badass-melee critter being rendered wholly ineffective by someone floating around and blasting it from range.
Thrown weapons. And at Supernatural Strength (+6 lifting) with ZERO Might, they're strong enough to use an average adult as a throwing weapon. Given enough might, CARS start working too, as does some random chunk of rock (or pavement) they just ripped out of the ground.
-
For example:
Athletics, for angelic wings.
Conviction for Green Lantern sort of flight source.
Craftsmanship for jet pack (say an item of power).
Lore for some sort of passive magic effect (something I would expect from Leanasidhe).
Wings has the condition that they always have to be visible, except for when you have a power that can conceal them. That makes them powerful in a fight, but if you want or need to keep a low profile, you are not going to be able to use them everywhere. If you want to make a (mostly) invisible wings power, I would treat it as an upgrade to the existing wings power at [-1].
I would probably require an aspect that reflects the ability to fly, otherwise I would treat his athletics (or other) skill as mediocre when flying, which makes it a bit less powerful if it is not a natural state for the character.
-
Human Guise costs nothing and hides Wings.
Human Form costs less than nothing and hides Wings even more effectively.
The obtrusiveness of the power is not an important part of its balance.
-
Neither work while you're using the power though, so tight spaces can still be a problem for Fly.
-
Basically, it comes down to if you think it's overpowered, charge 2 refresh for it.
I personally don't value flight on the same level as, say, Channeling, but to each his own.
-
For the OP: Have you, or are you playing this game in a completely different setting from something along the lines of the Dresden Files novels?
I ask, because the way I run my games, based off the impressions I gather from the novels, is that the supernatural set actively work to keep the 'mundanes' in the dark as much as possible.
With that fact in mind, a power like wings and the associated ability to fly becomes very nearly as much a disadvantage as an advantage. Yes, but purchase additional powers, Wings could be kept 'hidden' when not in use, and yes, if when/flying the character is not subject to melee attacks from non-flying opponents. Having said that, there are plenty of ranged attack options available like Guns, thrown of shot (Bows) Weapon attacks, Evocation attacks, Sponsored Magic, etc.
In addition and perhaps even more importantly, if 'normals' see the character(s) doing something non-normal, like Flying... Then all sorts of problems should occur, especially since the DFRPG is such a storytelling, as opposed to roll-playing or tactical combat game.
While it is indeed up to the individual players and groups to decide what sort of game they wish to have, ignoring the versatility of FATE and other sorts of activities (Mental or Social conflict) hunting for clues, convincing people to behave, etc. seems to be cutting out much of what made the DFRPG different.
-Cheers
-
Wouldn't shooting while actively flying require a supplemental action?
Just hovering takes as much effort as running.
That would penalize the shooting at least a little.
(and it would deny you cover from just about any return fire.)
-
If you would be 3 zones away, and attempt a fly-by, you could not since it would be considered sprinting by Athletics trapping.
Another skilled called Flying would have another trapping allowing a fly-by combo. For example for each 2 zones away you fly-by, add -1 to attack and +1 to weapon damage.
-
I'm with everyone who doesn't understand why fly has to be nerfed in the first place.
And it's my personal opinion that a GM who nerfs things is not working with the system well or being creative enough. Someone with wings SHOULD be able to hover above someone with only a sword imo.
-
I don't think it should be nerfed.
I just think it's worth more than one refresh.
If Spider Walk costs one refresh, Wings should cost two.
And you know what? I'd totally pay two refresh for Wings. It's worth it. It gives total immunity to a number of problems, a tactical advantage in combat, and a number of random peripheral benefits.
PS: I may be a little biased here, because I once tried to develop a jumping-based power before discovering that Wings trumped it completely.
-
Personally, balance-wise, I'd be inclined to buff spider walk first; a simple +1 or +2 bonus to defense against maneuvers that would trip, unbalance, or cause you to move would be a nice touch, for example. On the other hand, I'm not opposed to weaker powers existing; if I'm statting something that ought to have spider walk but not wings, I'll give it spider walk, and not really worry too much about it.
Still, from a game design point of view, spider walk (and claws and maybe a few others I'm not thinking of offhand) probably deserve some kind of small associated skill bonus.
Then again, I also subscribe to the theory that the Wings power should generally have some kind of aspect-level limitation; if you fly by means of actual wings, you can get compelled to be unable to fly in places that are too tight for your wingspan (this is one of the reasons I made sure to work out wingspan for Johann's eagle forms); if you fly by means of magic, you can get compelled to be unable to fly if someone puts a circle around you (or you're inside a threshold uninvited); and etc. That kinda breaks down when you have both physical wings and diminutive size, though - but at that point you've got diminutive size, and the drawbacks on that seem to me to be quite enough.
-
That kinda breaks down when you have both physical wings and diminutive size, though - but at that point you've got diminutive size, and the drawbacks on that seem to me to be quite enough.
Like it being very nearly trivial to subject you to wind-based maneuvers/compels
-
Since all our suggestions to (essentially) nerf it in play by being a more creative GM have fallen on deaf ears, I'm beginning to think the reason Discipol is so passionate.... is because he's a pure melee build in a game with a flyer, and it's starting to tick him off.
In which case, he needs to direct his GM here, and/or provide his character a little more flexibility.
We've given all the reasons in the world why, if flight is so ridiculously overpowered, it can be limited, trumped, or outright nuked. Frankly, the fact that it provides (occasional) (limited) immunity to melee-only characters isn't worth much in a world where such individuals are RARE.
I mean, really. If you live in an area that allows Conceal/Carry Weapon liscenses, how many CCW's do you think are walking around with a hidden knife instead of a gun? Even in Dresden, where the balance is a bit more fantasy and a bit less real-world, most of the things that use melee dominantly do so because they have other edges along the lines of enhanced speed or strength...
In which case, it becomes moot, because I can, offhand, think of a dozen ways they can overcome the already occasional limitation.
Why can't the speedster roll athletics to rebound off a dumpster or car, and jump a zone up... get a single solid hit or grapple in, and boom. Wings useless.
For that matter, if he needs to, I'd allow him to do it without a roll, if he spends a fate point to temporarily have flight (per temp. powers rules), Fly for 1 round representing a jump.
The powerhouse can throw anything, or use a telephone pole that reaches into the next zone up (a little unorthodox, but I'd allow it).
Course, the flyer could go more than one zone up, but then there ought to be some SERIOUS ranged penalties- and at that point, how is he any more overpowered than the pure mortal sniper, who always sits a zone or two away, in stealth, with a high-powered sniper or hunting rifle? He's also immune to melee, capable of reaching out and touching someone from far enough away that even if noticed, whatever came after him would have to get to him AND find him... and he's doing it all for a [+2] (pure mortal) and a couple decent skills (guns and stealth).
Should we nerf him?
-
I think the whole "you can't fly indoors unless it's a very very large room" needs to be emphasized more. Fly would be useless in the majority of fights my group has had.
-
Fly should be 2 refresh if you can fly without wings.
But the book specifically states that if you have fly, you have visible wings.
That is kind of a big drawback. It means you either cannot be seen in public or you need other power to hide your wings that cost more refresh.
-
Human Guise is free.
If visibility is supposed to be a downside, then that should be changed.
Aspect compels are just as much a good thing as they are a bad thing, so they don't make a good drawback.
And if you have to nerf something in play, then it's undercosted.
It's possible that Spider Walk just sucks, but it seems to me more likely that Wings is a touch too good.
I mean, it's not gamebreaking or anything. Just a little too inexpensive.
-
It's a heck of a lot less gamebreaking than thaumaturgy...
-
This whole thing is silly. If someone has flight, just set up conflicts based on the knowledge that they have flight.
-
What stops me, the ground-pounder too dumb to bring a ranged weapon to a modern fight, from picking up a rock/brick/whatever and pegging the flyer with it -- either for straight damage or to perform a maneuver to inflict the aspect "Knocked out of the sky" on the target (followed by an immediate tag for effect so my buddies can pound/tackle the guy on their actions)?
I dunno, I don't think flight is all that much of a problem...
-
@noclue: You could very easily use the exact same argument for catchless Physical Immunity. But nobody is arguing that catchless PI should cost 1 refresh. Just because it can be dealt with doesn't mean that it shouldn't be appropriately costed.
@Becq: If you've got Weapons, that works. The Fists guy is SOL, though.
-
And if you have to nerf something in play, then it's undercosted.
I prefer to think of it as not nerfing the enemies tactical abilities. Even a really, really stupid person could figure out "get where they can't shoot you from way up there until you can find a way to even the odds"
It's possible that Spider Walk just sucks, but it seems to me more likely that Wings is a touch too good.
Nah, one's just better indoors and one's better outdoors. Truthfully, they're both pretty useless.
I mean, it's not gamebreaking or anything. Just a little too inexpensive.
It's only inexpensive if everyone you fight is too dense to come in out of the rain. If that's the case, it's not the power's fault but the GM's.
-
If a player has wings, it is a love note to his GM - it says give me skies to fly in, enemies to strafe on the ground, and aerial opposition that I can fight. Why not? Give it to him. Lots of it. If a power is too cheap or undercosted for the player... well, it is for the NPC as well.
-
miss post! arg!
-
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-05-28
-
@Mighty Buzzard: If your power forces many opponents to flee outright, it should cost more than one refresh. That's a big advantage in a city, and a game-ender if you end up in a farmer's field somehow.
And more or less automatic success at 3 of Athletics's 6 trappings is pretty good too.
@Arcteryx: Look, it being easy to deal with doesn't mean it's not a problem. And if it's equally unfair for everyone, it's still a problem.
@Radjis: Great comic that unfortunately has no grounding in the rules of this game. A flying character is no easier to shoot than any other character, unless you start meddling with the default rules.
-
@Mighty Buzzard: If your power forces many opponents to flee outright
It shouldn't though. Only the very foolish who take no ranged skills or powers. If it does it's not an overpowering of the skill but just plain bad GMing. Or the encounter was supposed to be easy I suppose. Bear in mind too that while your opponents may be able to take cover against a flying opponent, the flier can't.
@Arcteryx: Look, it being easy to deal with doesn't mean it's not a problem. And if it's equally unfair for everyone, it's still a problem.
The same could be said for magic or almost any other power.
@Radjis: Great comic that unfortunately has no grounding in the rules of this game. A flying character is no easier to shoot than any other character, unless you start meddling with the default rules.
Yes, yes they are. They can't declare+tag cover and can be seen and targeted by pretty much every player for two zones in any direction. On the ground that is far from the case unless you're in an empty field. They're also far more vulnerable to air and force based magic, essentially offering a free tag then a sticky aspect to anyone who wants to use it for as long as they stay in the air.
Player: immobility spirit block at the duck's wings. Ten shifts so I'll take the three stress as a minor consequence (headache) and one physical, none to duration, and I'm tagging the Made Myself An Easy Target aspect for a free +2. *rolls happen* Bleh, I'll take all four worth of miss in backlash and split it between mental and a minor mental consequence (my brain's tired); stupid dice. Hey, he's two zones up so what 100 feet at +5 stress per 10 feet? Huh, look at that. He went and splattered himself all over the ground.
The above could be done by a noob (-7) wizard specialized to use spirit without using any FP at all. Air would work just as well though.
In the end though, it all boils down to the GM and to the tactical imagination of the players/npcs to decide how much of an advantage wings are or aren't, the same as with most powers. Personally, I find it easy enough to deal with that I don't even see it as a tactical advantage at all, more as a story advantage.
[/quote]
-
There's nothing in the rules making it easier to Declare + tag aspects before or against a flying character. It says nothing about it in the power description and ruling that it is the case anyway is not what the rules tell you to do. It's not against the rules either, but it has no more basis than Declare + tagging some form of occult distraction against a guy with Supernatural Senses.
Magic and other powers are generally balanced against their refresh cost. The question is, is Wings? I think not quite.
There are plenty of foes who can't fight a flier. Looking in OW, we see werewolves, the majority of vampires, several Denarians, Sue the zombie t-rex, normal zombies, one or two types of fey, and probably some others that I can't remember right now. If Wings makes those guys useless (or nearly so) against you, the answer is not to never let the guy with Wings fight them. The answer is to make Wings expensive enough that the usefulness against those characters is reasonable.
Oh, and one other thing: can you do me a favour? Go over your arguments and try to find one that couldn't be used to justify Physical Immunity with a catch of silver being available for the cost of one refresh.
I'm pretty sure that all of your arguments work to justify that.
Which shows the problem. You have shown that a GM can deal with the effects of Wings in game. But what you haven't shown is that that means that Wings is balanced at its current cost. If you can show that, I'll agree with you. I don't think that you can.
-
There's nothing in the rules making it easier to Declare + tag aspects before or against a flying character.
There's very little in the rules that says when you can invoke/tag any aspect. It's assumed you'll be able to figure out extremely basic things like that yourself. It's no less reasonable to be able to invoke/tag Flying than it is to invoke/tag Covering His Eyes.
Magic and other powers are generally balanced against their refresh cost. The question is, is Wings? I think not quite.
Yes, you obviously see wings as far more valuable than I do. You must fight exclusively outside in open fields.
If Wings makes those guys useless (or nearly so) against you, the answer is not to never let the guy with Wings fight them. The answer is to make Wings expensive enough that the usefulness against those characters is reasonable.
Or, you know, let them be easy to beat and not craft them into the story as an epic threat. Myself, if I really wanted those to be a threat to the players, I'd give the zombies, werewolves, red and white vamps guns. Let Sue and the Denarians throw cars at them. Let the fae, and any of the others who can, use magic. Don't make your npcs unthinking targets*, make them an actual challenge.
* Zombies yeah but their master isn't.
Oh, and one other thing: can you do me a favour? Go over your arguments and try to find one that couldn't be used to justify Physical Immunity with a catch of silver being available for the cost of one refresh.
Straw man argument on silver but I'll give it a go for flight. Physical Immunity -8. The Catch +6: +2 only vs melee-ranged attacks, +2 accessible to anyone, +2 anyone will notice immediately. Human Form +1 (Required based on the GM ruling that bigass wings are too large to hide with Human Guise or Flesh Mask). There you go, -1.
Which shows the problem. You have shown that a GM can deal with the effects of Wings in game. But what you haven't shown is that that means that Wings is balanced at its current cost. If you can show that, I'll agree with you. I don't think that you can.
I really don't need to. It's in the RAW. Personally, I don't care if something in the RAW is balanced or even fair. I just take it as a fact of life like gravity and deal with it. If your players don't like it then house rule it otherwise. If you don't like it and they do, deal or piss off your players and house rule it otherwise over their objections.
-
@Arcteryx: Look, it being easy to deal with doesn't mean it's not a problem. And if it's equally unfair for everyone, it's still a problem.
Problem: flying thing. Here's my boom-stick. See? No longer a problem. Totally not unfair at all.
:)
-
Perhaps a bit of perspective might help here, but first off: I know DFRPG is fantasy and I know that we are talking about supernatural stuff, but it is also said often that a lot of supernatural things are grounded in the natural laws too.
If a human would be to fly, he'd need a wingspan of about 15 meter (not talking about changes in physiology and stuff, y'know, supernatural and all). For visual benefit, look at the Quetzalcoatlus, which had about the same wingspan:
Look at the green one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quetzscale1.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quetzscale1.png) & http://blog.webosaurs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/quetzalcoatlus2.jpg (http://blog.webosaurs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/quetzalcoatlus2.jpg)
Just think about how much room that requires, just to get airborne, without even maneuvering. So, depending on how much reality you demand, Wings might seems overpowered. But even if you require only 10 feet of wingspan, that still is a lot of room indoors.
If you read Wings as 'you have wings, therefore you can fly', then you do the same as 'you have a gun, you can shoot things'. Yet, with the gun we all seem to realize what the realistic consequences are of shooting at just about anything. But with Wings we seem to lose sight of that...
-
You could have some sort of a jet pack instead of wings.
If you magic combat, you will probably go all out including wings. My problem is game mechanics of wings.
-
You could have some sort of a jet pack instead of wings.
Actually, no, according to the description of the power Wings:
Description: You have wings of some sort—
gossamer as a faerie, leathery and batlike as a
demon—enabling you to fly.
Musts: Your wings are always present and
visible unless you have an ability (Flesh Mask,
shapeshifting powers, or the application of
a Glamour) allowing you to hide them. You
should define the appearance of the wings when
you take this ability.
Skills Affected: Athletics.
Effects:
Flight. You can fly, eliminating or reducing
certain kinds of borders (page 212) and
enabling travel upwards into zones (page 197)
that can’t normally be reached. Winged flight
is governed by the Athletics skill, just as
running is.
If you want a jet pack, you are circumventing some of the drawbacks of Wings (and probably with the expres reason of doing so) and should pay more than 1 Refresh.
-
Description: You have wings of some sort—
So you are not a pure mortal, thats the price.
-
So, could we say that a jetpack could be a combination Aspects, with Craftmanship and Resources? Just out of curiosity, because a jet-pack would not be magic/supernatural, per se, but current knowledge and technology can't do it
jet yet. Or are we dabbling in the realm of Pseudo-Science/Not-Quite-Magic-Nor-Science then? :)
-
So, could we say that a jetpack could be a combination Aspects, with Craftmanship and Resources? Just out of curiosity, because a jet-pack would not be magic/supernatural, per se, but current knowledge and technology can't do it jet yet. Or are we dabbling in the realm of Pseudo-Science/Not-Quite-Magic-Nor-Science then? :)
Or we could just say that it's plain old ordinary mortal ferromancy that anyone with the Resources could purchase. It pretty much is. Current tech doesn't allow for taking your hands off the handles to shoot people or cast spells though. If you want it to be beyond what's currently available tech-wise, you'll have to take that up with the GM.
-
I dunno. Jetpack...?
"I zip towards the Evilcrapallistictm wizard at gondikulous speed in my shiny hi-tech jetpack!"
"He points a finger... and hexes your shiny hi-tech paperweight. You fall from the sky. How high did you say you were again?"
-
"Can I roll my Athletics to crash land on top of the Evilcrapallistictm wizard? Or his lackeys?"
-
I still don't understand the problem.
For a fate point used as a declaration that there is something high up and a maneuver using magic to get up there, a wizard can do the same thing as a character with fly... for no extra refresh spent.
So... ::shrug::
-
Was going to try for an intelligent and convincing reply, but then I read this:
I really don't need to. It's in the RAW. Personally, I don't care if something in the RAW is balanced or even fair. I just take it as a fact of life like gravity and deal with it. If your players don't like it then house rule it otherwise. If you don't like it and they do, deal or piss off your players and house rule it otherwise over their objections.
It seems that I've been wasting my time here. So I'm giving up.
-
All that means, Sancta, is that buzzard can't be convinced on this one... but I understand.
One note- people keep talking about how the ground-pounder gets screwed... and if he's Fists only, sure enough- he does.
But how often is he the only person in the fight? Usually there's a group.
So how often is a given party made up EXCLUSIVELY of fist-style ground-pounders? This is where team-work comes in. Sure, you can't hit the flyer- let your rifleman or wizard buddy handle him while you keep the minotaur off his arse.
If you are made up exclusively of ground-pounders, then that's on the party- their redundant, repeated bad. The GM is telling them it's time to get creative, or time to learn they should've been more flexible.
If your party is balanced, but the enemy is made exclusively of flyers, then that's on the GM- his bad for excluding one of the players at his table. Worst case scenario, the ground-pounder gets to earn a FP every round as a self-compel for being useless (if he doesn't have such an aspect, I'd, as GM, give him a scene-aspect to that effect; then ask him if he minds making a snacks run.)
-
I'm wondering what possessed the GM to sick a flying adversary against a character with no means to fight back. I'd need some context on that one. Maybe he shouldn't be GM any more.
Now, give the flyboy an aspect about Arrogance that the PC can invoke to get him to come within striking distance and we be alright.
-
I'm wondering what possessed the GM to sick a flying adversary against a character with no means to fight back. I'd need some context on that one. Maybe he shouldn't be GM any more.
Now, give the flyboy an aspect about Arrogance that the PC can invoke to get him to come within striking distance and we be alright.
Indeed.
-
All that means, Sancta, is that buzzard can't be convinced on this one... but I understand.
Eh, I could be convinced if I actually saw it as something game-breaking; I just don't. So they can fly for a -1, so what? For a -3 they can bend the fires of creation to their will. I just completely and utterly fail to be impressed by Wings as a power.
-
I've said before, it's not gamebreaking. Just (probably) undercosted. You could knock a refresh off of any power in YS without breaking the game. But it'd be a mistake, I think.
It's possible the GM was expecting more creativity from the players than he got. A decent Intimidation skill for provocation or some FP spending would let a Fists guy fight a flyer, albeit still at a significant disadvantage.
-
Going to have to chalk this one up as a difference of opinion I guess. I think we've argued it out thoroughly enough that if one of us were going to change our mind we would have already done it.
-
I...guess so?
But honestly, I'm not even sure if I can call that an argument. I'm not even sure that we disagree.
But whatever. This has gone on long enough, let's lay it to rest.