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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Arcteryx on August 22, 2011, 03:55:23 AM
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Because as I see it, the power is as equally rife with liability as it is with benefit - if played right. Hoping to hear arguments against it as I'm set to mark it down to 0 in my game.
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Because as I see it, the power is as equally rife with liability as it is with benefit - if played right. Hoping to hear arguments against it as I'm set to mark it down to 0 in my game.
I'd say 'go for it'. Just make it on a trial basis, and make sure the players understand that.
See how it turns out. Then get back to us.
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The drawbacks of "Marked By Power" are... uh... hm. Nope, no drawbacks to the power; it's just straight social bonuses. Now, the power requires an aspect - "Owned By A Dragon" or whatever - and that aspect is certainly rife for compels... but compels give you fate points. I'm not seeing where the liability is, here?
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I say no. +1 to all social skills is a big deal, and the downside is not terribly significant.
It's a good excuse for a compel, but that's actually about as much of an advantage as it is a disadvantage.
If you ruled that the consequences of being recognized weren't compels, I'd say -0 is reasonable.
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Ah, good point on the counter-balancing Aspect playing that side of things. That turns MbP into a cheap (i.e. no FP being blown, and +1) pseudo-invoke in social sits.
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That said, I do totally allow a PC to be Marked By Power without the actual Power of that name. Take the matching aspect, and that's all you need... but if you want the nearly-permanent +1 to social skills, you have to pay the refresh.
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Only way I'd reduce it to a 0-cost is if you also attached penalty to the bonus: ie, you're Marked by the Power of The Great Bunny, and while some may scent the aura of power about you and pay heed (+1 to most social skills) those who recognize the source of your power rarely take you seriously at all (-1 to most social); or you're Marked by something great and nefarious- unless you're going incognito (no bonus), you only receive the social bonus w/ equally dark powers, or when using intimidate trappings (+1 to all social, situational)- with most others, you in fact receive a penalty to everything but intimidate (-1 to all social, situational... diplomacy tends to backfire. Badly.).
But at that point, you're still better off just working with compels to the high concept.
Edit: for the Great Bunny, I might consider that for a +0, all opponents aware of your supernatural-ness have their social defenses modified by Lore... the higher their lore, the less likely they are to take you seriously, and vice versa. No other bonus though.
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Marked by Power basically gives you a +1 across the board on all social combat (attack/defense) in all supernatural situations, when you also consider it can be used in mental combat as well (incite emotion is based off of social skills) it is one of the most powerful 1 refresh powers. Defiantly shouldn't be a +0 power.
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when you also consider it can be used in mental combat as well (incite emotion is based off of social skills)
I actually would not allow that in games I was running; my interpretation is that Marked By Power grants its advantages to social skills, not to skills-that-are-usually-social. In other words, it works in the realm of social conflict, not mental conflict. Similarly, if you had a "Quicker Than The Eye" stunt that let you use deceit for physical attacks (by extending the sleight of hand trapping), I would not allow Marked By Power to improve your physical attack rolls.
On the other hand, if you're in a situation where you're making a social attack using scholarship (perhaps trying to convince a learned scholar that you know what you're talking about), I'd rule that Marked By Power would apply - that's a social skill roll, even if the skill isn't normally used for social purposes.
I'm not trying to claim that your interpretation is necessarily wrong, here; I can see how you could make an argument for it. But I do think it's worth posting to make sure people reading this thread can see that there exists an alternative viewpoint.
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Actually after Night Fear I know my interpretation is correct (or at least canon) in Night Fears, Spirit Form's Variable Visage gave a +2 to incite Emotion mental attacks for the ghosts who used it.
Variable Visage. As a spirit, your form may
change somewhat in response to your mood
or idea of self, causing you to appear more
fearsome or beautiful, granting a +2 to
appropriate social actions based on appearance
(Intimidation for a fearsome appearance,
Rapport or Deceit for a beautiful one).
Usually this is as an exaggeration of your
“normal” appearance in some way.
Your Story p170
They obviously treat inciting emotions as a social action which makes Marked by Power relevant even by your definition.
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Actually after Night Fear I know my interpretation is correct (or at least canon) in Night Fears, Spirit Form's Variable Visage gave a +2 to incite Emotion mental attacks for the ghosts who used it.
Variable Visage. As a spirit, your form may
change somewhat in response to your mood
or idea of self, causing you to appear more
fearsome or beautiful, granting a +2 to
appropriate social actions based on appearance
(Intimidation for a fearsome appearance,
Rapport or Deceit for a beautiful one).
Usually this is as an exaggeration of your
“normal” appearance in some way.
Your Story p170
They obviously treat inciting emotions as a social action which makes Marked by Power relevant even by your definition.
Don't you think that using Variable Visage to give you a scary face might be used as a Maneuver, which then allows a tag for that +2? Other than that, this power is quite clear in that it can be meant to scare the living daylights out of someone, so I could see how it would work well with Incite Emotion (Fear). Marked by Power, on the other hand, has a circumstantial bonus, depending on whether you're recognized or not. This may help you intimidate someone, but why would it make you mystically scarier? If Variable Visage might be used to create a giant maw, lined with rows of sharp teeth that is mystically scary.
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Being touched and changed (it is a power so it is more than just reputation) by a massively powerful entity would very likely make you more mystically terrifying especially if your patron is a terrifying creature to being with.
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...(or at least canon)...
Oh, joy, this discussion again. We've got different definitions of canon; for an example, I don't treat any of the custom stunts or powers from OW as being things a player can simply assume are available for their PC. So I'm not going to treat anything from Night Fears as being canon, either. Potentially useful reference? Sure. An example of one way that someone could run a particular scenario? Sure. Absolute word-of-god if you don't play like this you're doing it wrong? Not a chance.
And I'm going to leave it at that. I wasn't trying to convince you, anyway - I know from prior conversations that that's not going to happen.
My point was simply that your view is not universal, and other readers can discuss the rules with their own gaming groups and come to whatever conclusion they like.
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Sorry I wasn't saying your opinion was wrong just that mine was in line with the developers who I accord a degree of sovereignty with regards to their own work.
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I am developing a strong dislike for the term "canon".
It usually signals the beginning of an unpleasant discussion.
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I really don't think that Marked by Power and Incite Emotion should stack their bonuses because of the concept behind each ability is different. Let's say Alice is an emissary of Mab, with the Marked by Power ability. She engages in a social situation with Bob, who's in the know. Bob recognizes that Alice is a representative of something much greater. Alice's bonus provided by MbP is a mechanical expression of Bob's rational realization that it might be best if he listens to to what she has to say. Now, let's say that Alice is also White Courtier with Incite Lust. She fancies a snack, and uses Incite on Bob. The mind mojo that IE represents goes straight past the conscious, rational parts of the brain, and targets the baser functions. Thus, the bonus provided by MbP shouldn't apply. The fact that Alice works for Mab is of no relevance to Bob's suddenly-raging libido.
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I really don't think that Marked by Power and Incite Emotion should stack their bonuses because of the concept behind each ability is different. Let's say Alice is an emissary of Mab, with the Marked by Power ability. She engages in a social situation with Bob, who's in the know. Bob recognizes that Alice is a representative of something much greater. Alice's bonus provided by MbP is a mechanical expression of Bob's rational realization that it might be best if he listens to to what she has to say. Now, let's say that Alice is also White Courtier with Incite Lust. She fancies a snack, and uses Incite on Bob. The mind mojo that IE represents goes straight past the conscious, rational parts of the brain, and targets the baser functions. Thus, the bonus provided by MbP shouldn't apply. The fact that Alice works for Mab is of no relevance to Bob's suddenly-raging libido.
I see Marked by Power being more than just reputation if it is just reputation then a pure mortal could (Marcone would have it) have it but they can't because it is a power and therefor represents something impossible for a mortal to achieve so for me Marked by power represents being mystically altered by your patron to which in my opinion would probably show its self either in your aura/ persona (so those in the know can feel part of your sponsor or at least its power in you) or in your every action (if you takes this interpretation then even your emotional inciting would show your ties to your sponsor which would justify the effects of marked by power working with incite emotion). If the power was pure reputation only there is no way being marked by power by winter would give a +1 to rapport with creatures of summer.
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But if that's a case, how come, according to the RAW on MbP, people who don't/can't recognize your and your power source get a pass? Wouldn't your aura of bad-assfulness still affect them?
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But if that's a case, how come, according to the RAW on MbP, people who don't/can't recognize your and your power source get a pass? Wouldn't your aura of bad-assfulness still affect them?
I am going to go with the ignorance is bliss line of defense, because those not in the know can't comprehend understand what they are feeling they are not effected in the same way (still rooms for compels about funny feelings etc)
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I am going to go with the ignorance is bliss line of defense, because those not in the know can't comprehend understand what they are feeling they are not effected in the same way (still rooms for compels about funny feelings etc)
But it isn't a feeling, it is an actual Mark, you can hide it, but you can't just get rid of it. It is this Mark that accords you the +1 bonus, not a mystical aura of some sort. Perhaps you could make a similar power in scope and feel, but narrate it as mystical and thus you can avoid this entire discussion :)
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You suggesting that marked by power is a big mark on someones forehead, I am suggesting it is a big mark on someones soul. What exactly the mark is or how it manifests (beyond a +1) is never actually described be it mystical aura or twisted nature or people seeing a thunderbolt on his forehead.
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not necessarily that literal, but it does say it can be hidden with deceit in non-stressful situations (which, in Fate, is a hair more literal than in D20). I'd say it's a blend of things from body language to word of mouth/reputation to, yes, a spiritual aura (not sure I'd say soul- that has a kind of sacrosanct vibe going on that nothing supernatural can mess with, especially post-GS).
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Okay, so let's look at it from another angle: Hulking Size, do you think that +2 to Intimidation would be applicable to Incite Emotion? And, if so, why?
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As long as you were inciting fear of you it would work, because making people afraid of something scary should be easier than the reverse (for example shark vs pigeon). The same way that White Court Vampires have it easier seducing people by being crazily attractive.
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Perhaps we should simply agree to disagree on this one! :P I wouldn't allow it, because I just feel it isn't meant for that, but that shouldn't deter you in anyway, of course :)
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"I am developing a strong dislike for the term "canon"."
Me too, but mostly because I see it used to defend not thinking imaginatively. I like the differences from one GM to the next. Maybe I won't ever use them, but I can still have fun appreciating them. One of my best friends and I have been back and forth in each other's campaigns since D&D in a box; his specialty is low-magic campaigns (regardless of genre or universe) whereas I lean way the other way.
We have fun with the difference; we'll probably never do things "the same".
In the same way, I see any given Dresden campaign as "based on" (okay, if JB was actually the DM, I'd say "in") Harry's universe, and the differences are a source of coolness and interest.
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Without getting into the argument about why bonuses to social actions should not be considered to automatically apply to mental attacks that happen to use the same skill, I'm going to replay to the original topic:
"The downside, of course, is that people tend
to see you as a representative of the thing
that marked you, which can lead to some
uncomfortable entanglements and assumptions."
So basically, you get the occasional +1 to social skills (which only applies in situations in which the mark is recognized as such, and not when interacting with, for example, any non-clued mortals) balanced by the fact that all of your patron's enemies are guaranteed to recognize you with a casual glance. To be honest, I agree with the OP; it makes sense to housrule this to -0.
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That's just a compel of the High Concept. It shouldn't be worth a price reduction.