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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Arcteryx on August 02, 2011, 09:03:26 PM

Title: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Arcteryx on August 02, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
I've been searching today but can't seem to find an "authoritative" list of the Who's Who That Thresholds Stop From Dropping In For A Visit, or is it *all* supernatural? Trying to figure out why it is that vampires need an invite and werewolves don't. I'd also expect fey to have a hard time coming in to say hello.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: devonapple on August 02, 2011, 09:12:38 PM
My recent reading indicates the following:

Ghost: absolutely blocked. No chance without an invite. Nada.
BCV: absolutely blocked. No chance without an invite. Nada.
RCV: half-paralyzed (probably a Block against all actions)
WCV: mildly inconvenienced (probably a Block against all supernatural powers)
Demons/entities from Nevernever in ectoplasmic bodies: Block against all actions or something like that (I'm a little unclear)

Also unclear on Fairies.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 02, 2011, 09:15:50 PM
When you enter uninvited you leave the bulk of your supernatural power at the door.
- those who are pure supernatural power (spirits, ghosts, etc) can't enter.
- those who need supernatural power to "live" (most black court vampires) can't enter.

Once you have a physical body that can exist without magic then you can go through, if you want to risk it.  During White Knight, Dresden has to weigh entering a room without an invite.  Then there's the Frog Demon from an early book who decides that he doesn't need his magical power against Dresden so pushed through the threshold.

I don't see fairies needing an invite, but I can see them as not bring all their powers passed the threshold.

Then there are the exceptions to the threshold rules - being so powerful that no one notices that they left some power at the door.  I see the elders of the black court like that, as well as fairy queens, Archangels, and the like.  Basically, if it's on that list of heavy weights then I can't see it mattering to the PCs that some power didn't enter the room with it.  Which may be how Green Teeth was able to do stuff when she hadn't been invited in.

Richard
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Arcteryx on August 02, 2011, 09:31:21 PM
Thanks guys, that helps clarify things quite a bit.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: lordoracle on August 02, 2011, 09:50:01 PM
I don't see fairies needing an invite, but I can see them as not bring all their powers passed the threshold.

I agree on this. In Changes, the Leansidhe did not need an invite when Harry came home to find her sitting there petting Mister and Martin and Susan were knocked out and cocooned.

When the feds raided his place, he only had Bob take down the wards, not the threshold. So it would have still been there when Harry found Lea there. I am not aware of him ever letting her into his place before.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Arcteryx on August 02, 2011, 09:54:24 PM
OK, so a bit more reading and searching through OW actually gives some more insight into how thresholds affect the beasties. I combined it with what you guys gave me for a reference:

Those who are pure supernatural power (or need supernatural power to live) are Harmed
Black court vampires, ghosts, spirits

Those who have a manifested body are Blocked
Demons (limited to physical capabilities), faerie/fey, red court vampire, mini demons, mini spirits, spell-based constructs (energies encased in ectoplasm)
Exception: demons in a mortal host can still work magic but it would be supressed

Power is Supressed
Enchanted items, magical/spellcasting abilities, supernatural perception, supernatural powers

Interesting Notes
Dreamers dreaming hard enough to form a dreamscape extends their consciousness from the mortal world into the Nevernever, and bypass all defences including thresholds

The bolded items indicate the rule effects of the threshold in action.

How do werewolves fit into this?

If it is the hexenwolf... it is the equivalent of a demon in a mortal host right?

If it is the Alpha type of werewolf, it is a spell that transforms them, but it is a "real" wolf that they've turned into, not an ectoplasmic construct, and they only use physical abilities so they aren't affected.

Let me know if the math is adding up there (or not...) - thanks :)
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Arcteryx on August 02, 2011, 09:57:24 PM
I agree on this. In Changes, the Leansidhe did not need an invite when Harry came home to find her sitting there petting Mister and Martin and Susan were knocked out and cocooned.

Well, a couple of things there. I don't think Harry's home has any threshold worth mentioning (it is a bachelor pad, Billy even jokes about this on YS230) and Leansidhe is the second most powerful individual in the Winter Court though - she could have left some power at the threshold (whatever it could be) and still had plenty left to work some mojo.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: devonapple on August 02, 2011, 10:10:44 PM
Then there's the Frog Demon from an early book who decides that he doesn't need his magical power against Dresden so pushed through the threshold.
I see the elders of the black court like that, as well as fairy queens, Archangels, and the like.  Basically, if it's on that list of heavy weights then I can't see it mattering to the PCs that some power didn't enter the room with it.  Which may be how Green Teeth was able to do stuff when she hadn't been invited in.

I thought there was also some amazement from Harry about the Frog Demon being able to hold itself together through the Threshold.

As for Black Court Elders, the literature seems to say that it absolutely stops BCVs cold, and I'm not sure I'd want to waive that for Elders.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: SunlessNick on August 03, 2011, 01:12:54 AM
Quote
How do werewolves fit into this?  -  Arcteryx
I'm inclined to side with Billy on whether the Alphas use a spell to transform (it looks like a spell to Harry because he's a wizard).  They're a bit bigger bruisier than regular wolves, so it might be worth saying they're blocked when in wolf form - if the wolf body is still considered natural, they might just have trouble changing forms unless invited (say each shift means changing takes an action longer).

For a Hexenwulf, I'd go with blovked in wolf form, and the ability to change into the wolf form suppressed.

For Loup-Garoux, blocked.

For Lycanthropes, suffering suppression to powers.

For wolfweres, werewolves in reverse.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Taran on August 03, 2011, 03:22:18 AM
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Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: devonapple on August 03, 2011, 03:27:50 AM
Sometimes it seems inconsistent: one massively powerful thing gets stopped cold by a Threshold, while something lesser can sort of blunder its way through with the right combination of apathy, toughness, and non-magical potency.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Arcteryx on August 03, 2011, 04:03:06 AM
I had to go and read over the last story (Aftermath) in Side Jobs again to make sure I didn't remember it wrong, but without giving too much away, a werewolf is able to come through a threshold uninvited - in human form.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: lordoracle on August 03, 2011, 05:58:20 AM
Well, a couple of things there. I don't think Harry's home has any threshold worth mentioning (it is a bachelor pad, Billy even jokes about this on YS230) and Leansidhe is the second most powerful individual in the Winter Court though - she could have left some power at the threshold (whatever it could be) and still had plenty left to work some mojo.

I'll agree Harry's place does not have a strong threshold, but there is one. He would not invite Susan in to see if his previous invitation was still in effect. Apparently if you invite someone in while they are human and then they are changed into something else like a Red Court Vamp, the original invite no longer counts.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Masurao on August 03, 2011, 11:17:08 AM
I'm inclined to side with Billy on whether the Alphas use a spell to transform (it looks like a spell to Harry because he's a wizard).  They're a bit bigger bruisier than regular wolves, so it might be worth saying they're blocked when in wolf form - if the wolf body is still considered natural, they might just have trouble changing forms unless invited (say each shift means changing takes an action longer).

For a Hexenwulf, I'd go with blovked in wolf form, and the ability to change into the wolf form suppressed.

For Loup-Garoux, blocked.

For Lycanthropes, suffering suppression to powers.

For wolfweres, werewolves in reverse.

I don't feel as if shapechangers would be bothered much, if at all by Thresholds, they just don't pack that much metaphysical muscle. Harry is essentially a human, but has a lot of metaphysical power to draw upon, part of which is left behind if he crosses a Threshold uninvited. However,
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So, apparently wizards have some magic that is internal and loads that is external. Shapeshifters like the Alpha's have, in my mind, all their supernatural power internally, so they might feel something as they shift within a restricting Threshold, but I doubt it hampers them in any real (i.e. mechanical sense).

I would think that a Loup-Garou wouldn't even stop short of any Threshold, as always it is a singularly unique creature.

Same goes for Fae, a typical Troll would be less bothered by the Threshold, as he doesn't have too much power beyond his physical might to throw around, whereas Lea as a lot. Of course, they are more hampered by their ectoplasmic bodies before crossing a Threshold in the first place.

I thought there was also some amazement from Harry about the Frog Demon being able to hold itself together through the Threshold.

As for Black Court Elders, the literature seems to say that it absolutely stops BCVs cold, and I'm not sure I'd want to waive that for Elders.

The Frog Demon was also superpowered by the thunder storm and he had a lot of real muscle to pound Harry into mush, if he had supernatural abilities beyond his body, he wouldn't be able to use them as effectively, or at all.

You might wish to say that BCVs have their power cut off, normally they draw on the ambient energies to animate their bodies, but within a Threshold this is denied. In effect, they would draw upon their own magical powers to keep up and about. A newb BCV would then fall to pieces within mere minutes, whereas an elder might last days, as long as it doesn't start slinging about magically. They are a bit like a golem, an inanimate body with a spirit, which is blocked by the Threshold.

So, in short, I would say that you should judge a critter by the power it can draw upon from outside of him-/her-/itself and what it needs to stay animate.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: UmbraLux on August 03, 2011, 01:01:42 PM
I have a slightly different take from some of you.  Here's my take:The real question to me is what effects does that suppression have?

I'd use it as a "barrier" every supernatural action has to surpass.  Every action (attack, block, or maneuver) using a supernatural ability has the difficulty raised by the threshold's value.  Actions which can't overcome the threshold are simply nullified.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Arcteryx on August 03, 2011, 05:07:34 PM
I think part of the difficulty is that - just like in real life and in the books - you can't overly broadbrush the Who's Who Can And Cannot Cross Thresholds. What is important is that whatever basis you come up with should be consistent and that it hopefully toes canon in the books. And if not... well, maybe there's a story there to be found :)

I'll continue to refine my list based on what I read over the next few weeks (I'm going to re-read the entire series again) and post the list once I get it into good form.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: lordoracle on August 04, 2011, 06:14:55 PM
I had another thought concerning the Leansidhe's entering Harry's place without an invite: what if she entered through the Nevernever? We know that it bypasses wards and she does control the corresponding territory in the Nevernever to his place.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: DFJunkie on August 04, 2011, 07:09:09 PM
I think the reason Lea was able to enter Harry's apartment in Changes was the debt Harry owes to Mab, who had ordered Lea to the apartment.  In theory Mab could have entered as well.

As for Butters being safe behind Murphy's threshold, I think Harry might have been, um, stretching the truth.  I'd bet that Erl could have broken in, but Harry was counting on the fact that he wouldn't go to the trouble (Chez Murphy probably has a substantial threshold after being a family dwelling for nearly a century) when he could just go about seeking other, more interesting prey. 
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: SunlessNick on August 05, 2011, 02:28:54 AM
Lea is also Harry's godmother, which implies a responsibility to look out for him, which in turn might be enough to get her past the threshold in order to take out two half vampires.  Had she attacked Harry, it might have affected her more.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 05, 2011, 04:03:24 AM
Had she attacked Harry, it might have affected her more.

I don't think that thresholds work that way.  They stop the magic (both good and ill magic) from crossing them.  They are barriers, walls, not watch dogs.  If a serial killer happened to be in Karen Murphy's house, maybe standing over her beaten frame, then the threshold would still be there to stop/slow down any supernatural things that tried to enter.

Richard
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Clotho19 on August 13, 2011, 02:07:38 AM
Honestly the reason i think lea was able to bypass the threshold is because the fae don't manifest bodies like spirits. They are flesh (of a sort), not made form ectoplasm. The fae we have seen die in the books haven't broken apart into ectoplasm like demons, spirits etc. who make bodies out of ectoplasm to manifest in our world. But they would of course lose a portion of their powers upon crossing a threshold just like wizards do.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Masurao on August 13, 2011, 08:15:25 AM
I can't recall any specifics, but I believe the fae -do- turn into ectoplasm after they are killed in our world. If that did not happen, the world would've been riddled with inhuman bodies after Harry and Michael were attacked at the train station in Small Favour (if I recall correctly). Of course, as I said, I can't remember specifically and I don't have the novels around right now.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Clotho19 on August 16, 2011, 01:30:11 AM
Your right, there isn't any specific concering if they are made of ectoplasm, so i guess until we know for sure it will always be conjecture either way. On the note though about how lea could have entered the threshold of harry's apartment, i was rereading the short story something borrowed today, and jenny greenteeth was able to enter the threshold of georgia and billy's apartment to kidnap georgia. And within the same story, harry comments on how their apartment has a very strong threshold. From this i can only interpret that the Fae are able to enter threshold's, but most likely lose a large portion of their power like wizards do (jenny physically attacked georgia rather than use magic on her which seems to support that she lost most of her magical oomph when she entered the threshold).
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: zenten on August 16, 2011, 01:45:01 AM
I can't recall any specifics, but I believe the fae -do- turn into ectoplasm after they are killed in our world. If that did not happen, the world would've been riddled with inhuman bodies after Harry and Michael were attacked at the train station in Small Favour (if I recall correctly). Of course, as I said, I can't remember specifically and I don't have the novels around right now.

According to Our World the fae are physical (so not made of ectoplasm) but don't leave behind human seeming bodies.  One example is a troll that when split open released a bunch of tiny trolls.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: UmbraLux on August 16, 2011, 02:53:03 AM
Given the troll's collapse into minor trolls / parts and Toot-toot's growth, I'd say there's a possibility that fae don't die on earth so much as (semi) permanently become "less" when "killed".  Not sure that follows in all the fae though...seem to remember the
(click to show/hide)
but am not certain. 
-----

I still tend to think anything physical, including ectoplasm, has the potential of crossing a threshold.  The caveat is they'll need to be strong enough to maintain physical existence in spite of losing access to metaphysical abilities.  Or at least having said metaphysical abilities reduced by the threshold's power. 

For examples, look at everything from the demon in Storm Front to various fae (Jenny & Lea at least), to
(click to show/hide)
in GS.  Also, GS seems to make it clear that some thresholds may
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Taran on August 21, 2011, 01:56:04 AM
Fae have real bodies.  Not ectoplasm.   Can't remember the name of the book, but the one where he is being attacked by the Gruffs, Harry specifically says, within the first couple of chapters, that fae don't turn to ectoplasm.

I've been doing thresholds by reducing ANY Supernatural Powers.  Any creature that doesn't have a living body can't cross at all unless it has enough power to manifest itself and be able to hold itself together.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: Clotho19 on August 21, 2011, 03:14:16 AM
Oh your right, was in small favour, start of chapter 2

Quote
"That corpse is still there. It's mostly a burned mess, but it didn't dissolve"
"Yeah," I said. "Faeries aren't wholly beings of the spirit world. They leave corpses behind.

I had a feeling it had been stated in the books, thanks for reminding me where it was Taran.
Title: Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 21, 2011, 05:32:31 AM
Given the troll's collapse into minor trolls / parts and Toot-toot's growth, I'd say there's a possibility that fae don't die on earth so much as (semi) permanently become "less" when "killed".  Not sure that follows in all the fae though...seem to remember the
(click to show/hide)
but am not certain. 
-----

I still tend to think anything physical, including ectoplasm, has the potential of crossing a threshold.  The caveat is they'll need to be strong enough to maintain physical existence in spite of losing access to metaphysical abilities.  Or at least having said metaphysical abilities reduced by the threshold's power. 

For examples, look at everything from the demon in Storm Front to various fae (Jenny & Lea at least), to
(click to show/hide)
in GS.  Also, GS seems to make it clear that some thresholds may
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)