ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on July 26, 2011, 10:25:38 AM
-
Do people allow players to save character creation skill points to spend at the next significant milestone.
-
I don't see why not. It's a similar idea to the "on the fly" character creation expressed in the book, where you spend your skill points (and choose Aspects or stunts) as you think of them during the session.
-
I don's see the benefit of it, but if one of my players want to do it that way, why not...? He would probably spend the points anyway halfway to the next milestone... ;)
-
One benefit I could think of is that he is essentially storing power for a large push once the skill level cap is lifted if and when the GM allows it at a major milestone. He could be in essense be building a skill tower instead of a skill pyramid (as I understand it, DFRPG allows a skill tower instead of forcing a skill pyramid unlike other FATE games).
-
No. You have skill points for char-gen. Spend them.
-
No. You have skill points for char-gen. Spend them.
What if your High Concept is an amnesiac who doesn't know what his capabilities are until he discovers them in play (See the movie The Long Kiss Goodnight for an example of this).
Or a refugee from a hive-mind experiment, Who occasionally taps into the collective consciousness to learn a few last skills before cutting them off forever? (Hmm, this High Concept would probably start out with the Demonic Co-Pilot power in the beginning, to simulate the collective murmuring in his mind)
I don't think there's any rule specifically allowing saving skill points from character generation, but the "All players are at the same level" rule sort of implies that it's not a "Use 'em or lose 'em" scenario, either.
-
What if your High Concept is an amnesiac who doesn't know what his capabilities are until he discovers them in play (See the movie The Long Kiss Goodnight for an example of this).
Compels cover this.
Or a refugee from a hive-mind experiment, Who occasionally taps into the collective consciousness to learn a few last skills before cutting them off forever? (Hmm, this High Concept would probably start out with the Demonic Co-Pilot power in the beginning, to simulate the collective murmuring in his mind.
Invocations cover this.
-
On-The-Fly Character Creation is covered on YS69. I understand you're not quite describing the same situation, but there it is in case it helps. What I am curious about is why TheMouse is so harsh about NOT allowing this. Mouse, is it just personal preference or have you run into situations where this was a genuinely bad idea? And if so, can you explain so we might not fall into the same trap?
-
One benefit I could think of is that he is essentially storing power for a large push once the skill level cap is lifted if and when the GM allows it at a major milestone. He could be in essense be building a skill tower instead of a skill pyramid (as I understand it, DFRPG allows a skill tower instead of forcing a skill pyramid unlike other FATE games).
In this case, I would simply not allow the lifting of the skill cap...
-
I can see why someone might say "No, you can't reshape your pyramid".
If someone has been playing a jack of all trades and suddenly wants to have fewer skills, or has been playing a specialist who now wants to be a jack of all trades, that's a radical shift for the character. Not just "hit a milestone and changed" but a change big enough to leave me wondering if it's the same character.
That said, when we started we didn't know the rules so used a house rule to cover our ignorance - we agreed to play three sessions and after that anyone who felt he needed to move stuff around could. Powers, skills, the shape of the pyramid, redo aspects - if the player wanted to change what was on his sheet so it would match what he wanted to play then he could.
Richard
-
Do people allow players to save character creation skill points to spend at the next significant milestone.
I haven't seen a rule specifically disallowing it. But I must ask, why would someone want to do that? Would it not be better to spend the point now, and build upon what you have when you get more skill points?
-EF
-
I haven't seen a rule specifically disallowing it. But I must ask, why would someone want to do that? Would it not be better to spend the point now, and build upon what you have when you get more skill points?
-EF
So you can have a narrower more specialized tree for example a submerged player could have a tree 3 wide and have 3 skills at good at the first significant milestone or because a character dosen't want skills that don't make sense and has more skill points than skills he wants.
-
So you can have a narrower more specialized tree for example a submerged player could have a tree 3 wide and have 3 skills at good at the first significant milestone or because a character dosen't want skills that don't make sense and has more skill points than skills he wants.
If it works for the character, do it! Personally, I'd rather have a random +1 skill that I can later buy up or swap out. But I'm more of a generalist kind of player.
-EF
-
In this case, I would simply not allow the lifting of the skill cap...
That would work if the players enjoy the characters being limited to a certain level of skill.
If the campaign started off Waist Deep but has progressed to a stage where the Refresh level is at Submerged or even higher, I think the skill cap should be lifted even considering some players banking their skill points. It is like hitting the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; after some Major Milestones, I would like to see the ugly duckling become a swan (afterall, that is probably the idea behind the way the character is built).
-
If the campaign started off Waist Deep but has progressed to a stage where the Refresh level is at Submerged or even higher, I think the skill cap should be lifted even considering some players banking their skill points. It is like hitting the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; after some Major Milestones, I would like to see the ugly duckling become a swan (afterall, that is probably the idea behind the way the character is built).
Would it just be a matter of refresh?
Our group started at one level. When the number of skill points and refresh equaled the next level the skill cap rose - and they got the refresh before they got the skill points. I suppose we could have raised the skill cap when they had the refresh points but it made more sense to wait until they had the skills needed for the next level.
Richard
-
Our group started at one level. When the number of skill points and refresh equaled the next level the skill cap rose - and they got the refresh before they got the skill points. I suppose we could have raised the skill cap when they had the refresh points but it made more sense to wait until they had the skills needed for the next level.
Richard
I agree that it need not be just a matter of Refresh. If your game frequently clocks major milestones at a faster rate than recommended in the books vis a vis significant milestones, then it would naturally follow that the Refresh level of the group hits the next "level" before the skill points can do so.
But I think my point remains - the GM should at some point raise the skill cap, whether the player is banking his skill points or not.
-
But I think my point remains - the GM should at some point raise the skill cap, whether the player is banking his skill points or not.
No system exists for banking skill points. You spend them all at char-gen. End of story according to the rules as written.
-
No system exists for banking skill points. You spend them all at char-gen. End of story according to the rules as written.
If you can quote the rule that explicitly states that you have to spend all skill points at char-gen, I will accept what you said. If it is indeed, as you claim, rules as written, then I am sure you can certainly find the rule that states so clearly and unambigiously.
I disagree that no system exists for banking skill points however, it is explicit that a system for banking skill points exist (p89 YS).
-
If you can quote the rule that explicitly states that you have to spend all skill points at char-gen, I will accept what you said. If it is indeed, as you claim, rules as written, then I am sure you can certainly find the rule that states so clearly and unambigiously.
Every single example of getting skill points for char-gen involves you spending every point you get. Every single one. Even the example you name for page 89 where it uses the word "banking" in reference to points you get from Milestones, you still spend every single skill point you have. Without exception, every spot I can find that references you getting skill points has you spend them all, even if there isn't some general rule that says, "You must spend every single skill point you get."
Let me turn this around on you: Find a rule that says at char-gen that you don't have to spend all your points. Find an example that's not a mathematical error where some character built using the char-gen rules does not spend all their points. Find a rule the says you may do so explicitly.
I disagree that no system exists for banking skill points however, it is explicit that a system for banking skill points exist (p89 YS).
When they say banking points, they mean something different than what you're saying. You are talking about having points that are not spent. They aren't.
The example on page 89 involves spending your points on an lower level slot and then buying lower level slot before you can raise one of them to to a higher slot; this is in order to not break the skill structure rules. In no way does it at any point involve having unspent skill points.
-
Let me turn this around on you: Find a rule that says at char-gen that you don't have to spend all your points. Find an example that's not a mathematical error where some character built using the char-gen rules does not spend all their points. Find a rule the says you may do so explicitly.
The examples are just that - how you can theorectically spend the skill points you have. I am not the one claiming that having to spend every skill point is RAW, you are. Neither am I (nor did I) claim that banking skill points at character gen is RAW either.You have skill points for char-gen. Spend them.
It is not explicit either way, which is why I did not take issue with your initial post in this thread, since in that post you did not claim that you have to spend them all, nor did you assert that spending all skill points is RAW.
As I read it, the example on page 89 also involves banking significant milestones in order to buy up a higher skill slot.
-
Let me turn this around on you: Find a rule that says at char-gen that you don't have to spend all your points. Find an example that's not a mathematical error where some character built using the char-gen rules does not spend all their points. Find a rule the says you may do so explicitly.
When they say banking points, they mean something different than what you're saying. You are talking about having points that are not spent. They aren't.
Your Story page 69: "That’s it. You’re free to fill in more details as you see fit, but that’s all you need to start playing. All the other decisions that you normally make during character creation can be done during play, revealing details about the character through the emerging story." It states clearly that you can begin play with only a skeleton of a character, I see no reason that you should be required to spend all of your points. I see no reason to hold off your points, not using them is just a waste in my opinion, but if there is some story reason for your character wanting or needing to hold off on skill points, go ahead. It's not a game breaker by any means in my opinion.
-
The examples are just that - how you can theorectically spend the skill points you have. I am not the one claiming that having to spend every skill point is RAW, you are. Neither am I (nor did I) claim that banking skill points at character gen is RAW either.
It's not explicit that you absolutely cannot take 10 Aspects instead of 7, either, but it seems pretty clear that's what happens. It's what the book says. They don't need to say, "You have to take 7 Aspects, no more, no less. 6 is no good unless you shall proceed on to 7. 8 is right out." They say to pick 7, so you pick 7.
In just this way, they tell you to spend your points, so you spend them. A common sense English reading of the text makes this clear.
As I read it, the example on page 89 also involves banking significant milestones in order to buy up a higher skill slot.
This is true. You do that by buying the lower slot and upgrading it. The line about banking is explicitly about Milestones, not skill points.
Your Story page 69: "That’s it. You’re free to fill in more details as you see fit, but that’s all you need to start playing. All the other decisions that you normally make during character creation can be done during play, revealing details about the character through the emerging story."
I wasn't talking about the optional on the fly character generation method. I was speaking about the regular rules for character generation that finish up on page 68. My apologies for any confusion.
-
You do that by buying the lower slot and upgrading it. The line about banking is explicitly about Milestones, not skill points.
I disagree. You can also do that by holding back on buying that lower slot (by banking the significant milestone/s) and buying the higher slot later, if doing so would not break the skill structure rules.
-
The PDF-page 89 says explicitly you can bank skill points, or spend them on a new skill point. (In italics it says so again.) In this case, I assume you need a careful look at how you interpret the rules. If you follow the pyramid example on this page, you could say that if you throw up a skill to Good, you leave a Fair blank, which you could fill up with an Average slot, which means you need 2 Skill Points. If your GM allows this: hurray for you! Technically this is impossible, because neither of these skills could be singly upgraded, as the pyramid will not hold them up, therefore, you need an extra skill in the base to hold it all up. If you read the example closely, it still requires you to buy that new skill with the banked skill points, you can't just get a 1-point rebate if you shift all at once. Because in the example they are talking about getting a new Average skill to Good, not an existing skill to Good with that pyramid.
So, yeah, they say banking Skill Points, but the results are the same: you must uphold the pyramid.
My two cents about banking at char-gen would entail that you spend all your points, unless you have a very good character reason for doing so. Just being an amnesiac is not enough, because you either still need to flesh out his history, or be at the mercy of the GM as to what Skills your character happens to have. Think about it: if he was a soldier, but was hit in the head with a bullet, barely survived several years of coma and awoke without much of a memory, his body would very likely still have all the combat reflexes he learned (Athletics, Fists, Guns, etc.).
-
My take:
If you use the standard character method you spend all your creation skill points at the stage that says:
"Once you have mapped out your character’s phases and chosen aspects, it’s time to pick skills, which are detailed in their own chapter (page 120)." (Pg 65)
If you are using the "Minimal Preparation" you choose a "sample skill point spending patterns" and then say which skill is which later (again spending your skill points).
Then, as you hit milestones, you can bank the skill points you earn in milestones.
If the table wants to do things differently, that's great, but the RAW don't allow for the banking of your creation points.
Richard
-
Your Story page 69: "That’s it. You’re free to fill in more details as you see fit, but that’s all you need to start playing.
The "that's it" comes after a step where you:
Choose one of the sample skill point spending patterns from page 65 of this chapter, based on the number of skill points the
GM has set for the game. Each available skill slot in the package should be written down as an empty slot on your character sheet to be filled later.
So after you briefly describe your character, choose your skill pyramid, choose a template, say what your top skill is, write out your high concept, and record your refresh level - then "that's it".
Richard
-
As there is no direct rule prohibiting such a skill build that is good enough for me thanks all.
-
As there is no direct rule prohibiting such a skill build that is good enough for me thanks all.
Um, the rules say to spend your creation skill points at this step (normal) or that one (on the fly). The rules then talk about spending the skill points you gain at milestones.
There is nothing in the RAW that allows you do to do what you want to do. If your table agrees with it, fine, but that's a house rule.
Rather than say "There's no direct rule against it" can you point to a rule that allows it? Otherwise it's like your PC throwing himself at the ground and missing (RIP Douglas Adams). There is no direct rule prohibiting that from happening, but nowhere in the rules is any mention of anything that would permit Arthur Dent's odd mode of travel.
Richard
-
There is nothing in the RAW that allows you do to do what you want to do.
Perhaps it's worth pointing out that some people will read the rules as "they state what you can do and that's all you can do" while others read it thinking "these are some cool examples, what else can I do within the spirit?"
Which approach you take is personal. Which the two see as "RAW" will be very different.
-
I missed the spot on 89 where it says that you can bank Milestone skill points. This is my error. You may bank skill points from Milestones so that you can purchase a higher rated skill rather than buying a lower rated skill and raising it as further Milestones come up.
However, this doesn't change my general point about char-gen skill points. There isn't anything that says you can bank those. The fact that there is explicitly a section of the advancement rules that calls out this exception only furthers the notion that you may not do so in char-gen; if you could, there'd be a similar section saying that this is the case. However, there is not.
Rules as written, you still spend your skill points from char-gen.
-
I dislike the notion that you can only do thing directly stated in the rules fate isn't DnD where everything is rigidly defined, if the rules do not mention something it dose not mean it should automatically be dis-allowed. Gaps in the rules are in fate all ways the province of GM's and their style of play but it is still wrong to say banking skill points at CG is illegal by the raw as it is never prohibited you can only say that your interpretation of the spirit/ text of the raw implies the prohibition of banking CG points.
-
I dislike the notion that you can only do thing directly stated in the rules fate isn't DnD where everything is rigidly defined, if the rules do not mention something it dose not mean it should automatically be dis-allowed.
I agree.
Luckily, DFRPG is one of those rare games were, by "RAW", "intent precedes mechanics". (YS308 under Adjudicating the Rules)
The full quote is "The guiding principle for all uses of the rules in this game is that intent precedes mechanics." The book's emphasis, not mine.
-
My advice Mr. Ways is that if your group thinks that it is fair, go ahead and just bank the skill points. There aren't going to be any Dresden police that smash through your windows because you tweaked the rules.
-
I like the idea of allowing characters to bank skill points toward a specific goal skill (presumeably one that can't currently be legally added to their skill columns). This has the advantage of allowing players to 'save up' for a skill that would otherwise require many painful swaps to eventually add to their skill columns while at the same time avoiding situations in which, say, a level 5 skill appears as needed from the blue. Basically, all skill points are 'spent' at any point in time, but some skill points aren't 'available for use' because there isn't currently a legal place for them in the skill column.
For an example of how this might work in action, see my post here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27494.msg1186089.html#msg1186089).
-
My advice Mr. Ways is that if your group thinks that it is fair, go ahead and just bank the skill points. There aren't going to be any Dresden police that smash through your windows because you tweaked the rules.
You're right, of course. They would hire Kincaid to snipe your books from a mile away! Bwahaha!
*AHEM*
I now return you to your regularly scheduled post.
-EF