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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: computerking on July 25, 2011, 04:16:40 PM

Title: Transmutation?
Post by: computerking on July 25, 2011, 04:16:40 PM
Is Transmutation of matter solely the realm of Thaumaturgy, or is (extremely short-term) transmutation possible using Evocation?

My concept:
After drenching foes in water somehow (Perhaps just from a mundane maneuver like turning on sprinklers) a character (From an adjacent zone) uses Water magic to transmute the water into gasoline (With shifts dedicated to duration, encompassing the whole zone and involving an exotic substance) as a maneuver to give all the foes or the zone in general the aspect "Drenched in Gasoline" where previously the aspect involved was "Drenched in water". The change in the aspect would only last the duration of the spell, of course, but opens up different possibilities than the original aspect.

Would this be possible?

I thought it might be, because Water Evocation can also be used to control exotic liquids (And because the definition of Water magic mentions that it is "the element of entropy and change"),  but the complexity of changing one thing into something else may bump it over into Thaum-only territory.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: tetrasodium on July 25, 2011, 04:33:03 PM
I'd say the slope sounds too slippery there.  If you allow that, what's to stop things like fire from splitting out the hydrogen in it to put in a standing in a hydrogen cloud aspect or air to halon/co2/chlorine gas/ or basically any other instant " I win style substance.  Plus how do you go about targeting the water?  
I think you would have a hard time explaining how water could transmute water into gasoline as well since the two are practically polar opposites (one is volatile and burns, the other is extremely stable). Use fire to infuse potential fire into the water and replace the stability of earth with the volatility of fire to get gasoline... sounds a lot more like thaumaturgy, you'd need to explain how water's element alone could perform the transmutation... Transmute a bucket of water with focused evocation applications... maybe transmute the individual water droplets without transmuting the water in the bodies of the victims or anything else using evocation only.... doubtful
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Haru on July 25, 2011, 05:10:31 PM
I don't think I would allow to change water into gasoline, there is to much difference between the two. Maybe with a complex ritual, but nothing on the fly.

Something that I think would be way more in the line with water magic would be having the water emulate the properties of any water based substance. Especially acid, of course.

However, you could possibly declare, that your fire evocation sucks the heat from the water and adds it to the burn damage the fire already does.
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Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on July 25, 2011, 05:12:19 PM
I would agree with those who say transmutation is too complex for evocation.  The closest thing I've seen allowed is altering the water to be more acidic so it burns the target's skin, effectively an evocation attack defended by Endurance instead of Athletics.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Radijs on July 25, 2011, 05:25:55 PM
I'd say yes, its possible. Turning water in to acid, wine or gasoline are both basically the same things. Though I'd say that the water that's on the goons and in their clothings would count as posessions. So the goons would get to defend with an appropriate ability.

Still if the sprinklers are still going, adding a fire would make one helluva show.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: devonapple on July 25, 2011, 05:41:23 PM
Debating about the transmutative properties aside, as long as the rules are being followed as far as damage, maneuvers, balance, etc., I'm more inclined to let the rest go as flavor. There are no "instant kill" special effects. They may *seem* like instant kill effects, but they still have to follow the existing rules of spell damage, invoking/tagging aspects, etc.

That said, I, too, might have trouble justifying an Evocation Maneuver which tries to place "Drenched in Gasoline" on someone using Transmutation as the explanation, without an existing Gasoline-related Aspect already in play.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: computerking on July 25, 2011, 06:39:22 PM
Totally forgot about the Running water. But Yes, I was figuring it would probably be too hard for Evocation to do in such a gross amount.

How about just turning trace amounts of water droplets in the air (not enough to ignite, but enough to smell)? I was considering the effect of telling bad guys with guns that they shouldn't shoot because they're surrounded by gasoline (while tagging the "Gasoline smell" aspect for +2 to a Deciet roll).

Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: zenten on July 25, 2011, 06:48:08 PM
I'd be more inclined to have water magic create gasoline than have it turn water into gasoline.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: devonapple on July 25, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: zenten on July 25, 2011, 06:48:08 PM
I'd be more inclined to have water magic create gasoline than have it turn water into gasoline.

Somehow, that floats (ha ha) a little better with me as well, but I don't know why. It's theoretically a similar amount of WORK involved to magically distill gasoline out of air than to magically distill gasoline out of water. I suppose the fact that the water is ON someone at the time adds a nontrivial amount of additional magical labor.

I could opine that if this were supposed to be possible, Butcher would have written some cool scenes with Ramirez setting up Dresden's fire attacks by presaturating opponents with gasoline, but that doesn't ACTUALLY mean it isn't possible - just that it hasn't happened "onscreen" yet.

This particular point of contention may ultimately be up to each table to decide depending on how they want their narrative to work.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Rubycon on July 25, 2011, 07:13:41 PM
I would think that changing a relevant amount of water into gasoline would take too much shifts to be done with evocation...
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Becq on July 25, 2011, 09:24:03 PM
I'd tend toward the opinion that 'transmuting' water into gasoline is probably more a Thaumaturgical aspect than an Evocation one.  That said, I don't think that there's a problem with allowing that in terms of game balance.  Just keep in mind that in real life, a person "Drenched in gasoline" is going to be in a world of hurt if he subsequently meets up with Mr. Match; in DFRPG, the same person would, at most, suffer the effects of an aspect invocation.  So you might force him to stop, drop, and roll, or you might add +2 shifts to a fire spell that hits him, but the end result is limited more or less to a 2-shift effect.

Clearly evocation transmutation produces inferior product compared to good, old-fashioned technological know-how!  :p
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Masurao on July 25, 2011, 11:19:27 PM
Or, if he gets on to you quick enough, he might run at you and give you a nice gasoline-soaked hug! :D
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: UmbraLux on July 26, 2011, 12:01:53 AM
Quote from: computerking on July 25, 2011, 04:16:40 PM
Is Transmutation of matter solely the realm of Thaumaturgy, or is (extremely short-term) transmutation possible using Evocation?
Sure, it's possible.  It does need to fall within the limits of evocation, but it is possible. 

As an attack, you might transmute amino acids in a victim's body to nitrogen.  As a block (against movement), you might transmute the top layer of a floor to teflon.  As a maneuver, you might convert someone's jacket to lead.  Limitations are basically line of sight and only three types of actions. 

Something like your gasoline maneuver is possible, it should give the standard +2 to a fire based attack.  If you tried to light it with a match, the gasoline is limited, mixed with water, and easy to put out or jump over (a total of two shifts on the attack).  In other words, I'd avoid "win buttons".  ;)
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: braincraft on July 26, 2011, 04:21:22 AM
I'm not sure if turning the air in someone's lungs to chlorine should be significantly harder mechanics-wise than ripping out their soul.
Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Discipol on July 26, 2011, 06:33:03 AM
You have to understand that magic is magic. Evocation and thaumaturgy is the same thing. One is improvised like singing live at a concert while the other is using a recording studio. This analogy is perfect.

You can transmute with evocation sure, but you would do a horrible job at it.
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Title: Re: Transmutation?
Post by: Masurao on July 26, 2011, 05:13:54 PM
About your spoilered part:
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