ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Discipol on July 25, 2011, 10:52:00 AM
-
I would like to know if a "leather duster" with say, 7 block can be used once a round or once a defense?
Block rules say the block holds until it expires or it is overwhelmed (when it shatters or something), but such a thing does not come from a spell, but from an enchanted item block.
One could argue that its a spell in an item, should remain one round.
On the other hand, one could say that for each attack there is a separate defense.
Logically I would say that it should last one round because since the enchanted item block -> permanent armor got nerfed to dust, this would balance it out a bit.
-
For me, there are two kinds of defensive enchanted items.
1. The reactive kind
2. the activated kind.
The First kind lasts for one defense action only. It is less a block than a magical defense roll, and defense rolls do not last a whole round.
The Second kind takes up an action to activate like any other block does. It's a block in a can, and therefore duration works like any other block out there.
As for "nerfed to dust"... I have to disagree there. Defensive enchantments have benefited hugely from the enchanted items patch.
Prior to the patch you had to cut the Power of the item in half twice to get something permanent. To make a 2 shift defensive item you had to have 8 shifts of power.
Now even a wizard with a lower lore skill can make decent defensive items, and when you run out of uses you can always get more for some mental stress. It's a really great safety net.
-
Hmmm, Nerfed? Enchanted Items Patch?
Not having deeply delved into the Enchanting rules yet, these phrases make me ask: Was there some sort of change to the Enchanted items rules made after the printing of the book? And if so, where can I check out the new rules?
-
Hmmm, Nerfed? Enchanted Items Patch?
Not having deeply delved into the Enchanting rules yet, these phrases make me ask: Was there some sort of change to the Enchanted items rules made after the printing of the book? And if so, where can I check out the new rules?
When people preordered the book they were provided with a PDF. This PDF differs in some way to the book that was printed.
-
It also depends on whether the Block is a standard Block, or bought as Armor: Armor will last an entire exchange, but it costs double.
-
It also depends on whether the Block is a standard Block, or bought as Armor: Armor will last an entire exchange, but it costs double.
For my interpretation it makes no difference. Armor has the bonus that it combines with your defense roll, a block will replace the roll.
-
For my interpretation it makes no difference. Armor has the bonus that it combines with your defense roll, a block will replace the roll.
IIRC, Armor's advantage is that it is not overcome by an attack the way a Block is, but it still substitutes for a defense roll.
I would love to know where to find the rule saying it adds to a defense roll! My players would like it as well.
-
IIRC, Armor's advantage is that it is not overcome by an attack the way a Block is, but it still substitutes for a defense roll.
I would love to know where to find the rule saying it adds to a defense roll! My players would like it as well.
By "adds to the defense roll" we mean that it effectively reduces the shifts generated by the incoming attack. Armor does not literally add to the defense roll.
-
By "adds to the defense roll" we mean that it effectively reduces the shifts generated by the incoming attack. Armor does not literally add to the defense roll.
Exactly.
If you use an enchanted item as armor, you get to use your defense roll, and you get to apply the armor value against the damage you take should the attack hit.
If you use the block function, then you get to apply the higher of either your defense roll, or your enchanted item defense against the attack.
Which is why i wrote that, when used as armor, it "combines" with the defense roll, not "adds to" the defense roll.
-
If you use an enchanted item as armor, you get to use your defense roll, and you get to apply the armor value against the damage you take should the attack hit.
I'm not certain that I have the same impression about Armor also reducing shifts from the attack: I've been under the impression this whole time that its only advantage was it couldn't be overcome like a standard Block. I'm happy (so very happy!) to be wrong - can you please provide me with a citation I can look up?
-
devonapple, I'm not sure there's a specific citation, but go look in the sections on combat and how armor and weapon ratings work. Armor from spells works exactly the same as armor from mundane equipment and toughness powers - it reduces incoming physical stress by an amount equal to the armor rating.
-
devonapple, I'm not sure there's a specific citation, but go look in the sections on combat and how armor and weapon ratings work. Armor from spells works exactly the same as armor from mundane equipment and toughness powers - it reduces incoming physical stress by an amount equal to the armor rating.
I know how mundane armor works in the system, and it does not help (or substitute for) Defense rolls.
So which of these is true (some contradict each other)? Evocation Armor:
a) costs twice the number of shifts of an equivalent Evocation Block
b) is a Block that cannot be overcome
c) applies for the entire Exchange/Duration in which it is active
d) acts as the Defense roll if it is the highest applicable Defense
e) acts as the Defense roll is all other Defense rolls have failed
f) reduces the stress from an incoming attack after a Defense roll
-
So which of these is true (some contradict each other)? Evocation Armor:
a) costs twice the number of shifts of an equivalent Evocation Block
b) is a Block that cannot be overcome
c) applies for the entire Exchange/Duration in which it is active
d) acts as the Defense roll if it is the highest applicable Defense
e) acts as the Defense roll is all other Defense rolls have failed
f) reduces the stress from an incoming attack after a Defense roll
I believe A, C, and F are true.
-
I know how mundane armor works in the system, and it does not help (or substitute for) Defense rolls.
So which of these is true (some contradict each other)? Evocation Armor:
a) costs twice the number of shifts of an equivalent Evocation Block
b) is a Block that cannot be overcome
c) applies for the entire Exchange/Duration in which it is active
d) acts as the Defense roll if it is the highest applicable Defense
e) acts as the Defense roll is all other Defense rolls have failed
f) reduces the stress from an incoming attack after a Defense roll
A, C, and F are true.
The reason we say it 'helps' defense rolls is this - if my Athletics roll is 4, the enemy makes a fists roll of 7 (3 shift difference, no weapons rating), and I have 3 armor from a spell, I end up taking no damage. Whereas if I had used that spell as a block of 6 instead, the block would have been over come by the fists roll of 7, I'd take one stress, and my Athletics score would have no impact on the exchange.
Blocks replace your defense roll, while armor helps make up the difference between a failed defense roll and the total shifts of damage you have to take.
-
I know how mundane armor works in the system, and it does not help (or substitute for) Defense rolls.
Neither does Magical armor. It does reduce damage after it is determined if the attack hits.
It works exactly the same way Mundane armor does.
So which of these is true (some contradict each other)? Evocation Armor:
a) costs twice the number of shifts of an equivalent Evocation Block
b) is a Block that cannot be overcome
c) applies for the entire Exchange/Duration in which it is active
d) acts as the Defense roll if it is the highest applicable Defense
e) acts as the Defense roll is all other Defense rolls have failed
f) reduces the stress from an incoming attack after a Defense roll
These three are true
a) costs twice the number of shifts of an equivalent Evocation Block
c) applies for the entire Exchange/Duration in which it is active
f) reduces the stress from an incoming attack after a Defense roll
C also applies to normal evocation blocks, as long as they are not broken.
For me, there is an exception for reactive Enchanted items, where it only lasts for one attack. But that may vary based on rules interpretation.
-
Wonderful! That's great - thank you for the correction, folks. I'll be running it as ACF from now on. My apologies for the temporary derailment, and thanks from my players!
-
A, C, and F are true.
The reason we say it 'helps' defense rolls is this - if my Athletics roll is 4, the enemy makes a fists roll of 7 (3 shift difference, no weapons rating), and I have 3 armor from a spell, I end up taking no damage. Whereas if I had used that spell as a block of 6 instead, the block would have been over come by the fists roll of 7, I'd take one stress, and my Athletics score would have no impact on the exchange.
Blocks replace your defense roll, while armor helps make up the difference between a failed defense roll and the total shifts of damage you have to take.
If you're being blasted by a spell with a damage of 5 though having the block is going to be a lot more handy.
-
If you're being blasted by a spell with a damage of 5 though having the block is going to be a lot more handy.
No, it won't.
Provided that the accuracy of the attack is still 7, Using the defense roll of 4 and armor 3 will reduce the final damage by 7. Using the block will reduce the damage by 6. So the Armor version is still better.
Armor is better, If:
The attack hits regardless of Block strength or Defense roll
AND
The sum of Defense roll + Armor is higher that the Block strength.
-
This is all a bunch of judgement calls, it seems.
It might be a good idea to err on the side of whatever makes Crafting weaker.
-
Evocation blocks last for one turn without shifts too duration so enchanted item evocation block should also last for one turn without shifts to duration as enchanted items are just stored evocation spells. The issue of non-activation isn't a problem for me as these items are in my mind all ways on (for example Harry's Duster for example) and only rationed by plot and game balance.
-
enchanted items are just stored evocation spells.
Well, except when they're stored thaumaturgy spells, at least, but allowing thaumaturgy block enchanted items could easily cause rather severe balance problems.
-
I'll add that 'B' may be a horribly worded attempt to say that evocation armor can't be 'broken' like evocation blocks can be.
---------------------------
Example 1:
Jingwei is surprised by too goons.
The first goon shoots at her and gets a +6 result (and he is wielding a weapon: 2 pistol)
Jingwei rolls the fudge dice and gets a 0, since she is surprised, her base defense is zero.
She decides to use her enchanted item to create a +6 evocation block.
The attack still hits on ties, so Jingwei takes 2 stress.
As the block has been penetrated by an attack it is 'broken', it will not defend against further attacks.
The second goon also shoots at her and gets a +4 result (and he also has a pistol)
Jingwei rolls the fudge dice and gets a +1, since she is surprised, her base defense is zero.
So she's looking at a 5 stress hit.
Of course, she could just use another charge from her enchanted item to create another block.
--------------------
Example 2:
Against the first attack, Jingwei instead uses her enchanted item to produce Armor: 3
So she is looking at (+5 + 2 - 3) a 4 stress hit.
But armor provided by evocation is not 'broken' like evocation blocks are, the armor will continue to provide protection for following attacks.
2nd goon attacks (+4 result, weapon: 2)
and Jingwei defense (+1 result, armor: 3)
So she is taking a stress 2 hit.
-------------------
So, in the block example, Jingwei is taking a stress 2 and then a stress 5 hit. In the armor example, she takes a stress 4 and stress 2 hit.
-
OP here, I would like to remind you that this is about instant block vs 1 round block triggered by a defense.
And Jingwei's example is where I came across the problem, but check out the magical conflict with the toad demon.
-
Well, my stance of defenses generated by enchanted items is as follows:
1
'Activating' a defensive enchanted item is a non-action that you may do even when you are normally prevented from taking actions. For example, when you are surprised.
2
The duration of blocks generated by enchanted items follows normal evocation duration rules. So it will last the whole exchange. Personally, I use the slightly irregular 'until your next action' duration because I don't like end of round book-keeping phases.
3
If a block generated by an enchanted item is broken, and, later, another attack is made against the same character, they can use another charge in the enchanted item to generate a new block
4
A single enchanted item can't provide both and armor and a block effect at once. But, you can use two different enchanted items to 'stack' both a block and armor on yourself.
-
I am 100% with you on this.
However,
If its monster, than you in the initiative stack, monster attacks you, block goes up, then next action you lose the block.
If its you than the monsters, you do your thing, monsters attack, block goes up, then the block is valid through the entire stack, even against friendly fire (common occurrence) assuming the block is not annihilated.
You did make an excellent point though. It doesn't say in the book, because it was already said in the evocation block, thus, a block, once generated, lasts one round or until destroyed/cancelled/replaced.
-
I'd like to add my two cents once more, then i'm gonna stop, because i think everything has been pretty much covered.
And because i think i'm starting to repeat myself and i don't want to sound obstinate *g*
For me
Reactively activated Defensive Enchanted items, grant their benefit for one attack only. The effect does not persist, regardless of it being block or armor.
Manually activated (that is, an action has been spent to activate) Defensive Enchanted items, work 100% the same way as normal evocation blocks.
-
I agree with Crusher_Bob.
The issue Discipol raised is one I see as encouraging magic users to raise their Alertness or at least not treat their Alertness as a dump skill in favor of Lore.