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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Discipol on July 24, 2011, 08:23:34 PM
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Hello, I have a question here. Is it possible to forget a skill? and take the skillpoint value for the other ones?
For example, I have a +2 skillpoint and 4 skillpoints of +1. I would want to sell 2 of the +1, and but another +2 skillpoint, thus having 2 of +2 and 2 of +1.
Any pro or contra arguments are welcome. Personally I think that the human nature to forget things should cover skills. Aspects do change, even if the same number of them remain, and so does the number of skillpoints.
If you are pro unlearning skills, which milestone would be minimal for this change?
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You can totally do that a little at a time during milestones. A minor milestone allows you to swap values of two skills that are one step apart or swap out a +1 for one you currently don't have.
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Hello, I have a question here. Is it possible to forget a skill? and take the skillpoint value for the other ones?
Yes, but it might take several milestones and you still need to maintain the skill pyramid. As Veet mentions, you can basically adjust skills up or down by one point each milestone.
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This is totally covered in the rules already. You can shift your skills around in a limited manner during Milestones, which are designated by your GM.
As long as your skill pyramid is still legal, and you shift your skills around only as specified in the Milestone the GM awards, skills can be downgraded over time, down even to +0, which is as close to forgetting it as you get in this game.
It is legal to, over time, promote a particular skill up the ladder and then, later on, bring a previous favorite skill back up to prominence and letting the other one lapse, as your character's needs change to adapt to current circumstances.
In your example, two skills at +2 and two skills at +1 do make a legal skill pyramid.
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Its not totally covered by the rules at all. My gm says that because there is no mentioning of downgrading, just switching around, he says that you have to have the same number of skills, which you can move around in value but not to level 0.
Even swapping my +1 skills with +0 would mean that I still don't get the points.
What my GM asks is a quote from the book to verify its a legal move. I am adding the fact that my character has 10 refresh and 30 skillpoints after a few months of playing from 6/20
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Pg 88 Minor Milestone. I suggest giving it a once over.
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Pg 88 Minor Milestone. I suggest giving it a once over too.
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Wait, are you wanting to just sell off skills and hold onto the points?
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well not hold on to the points, but add the points into something else.
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And by something else you mean another skill? Because if so the section on pg 88 is pretty clear on how you do that. You have to do it one step at a time but the procedure is there.
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Umm I think I may be using an outdated version than yours, would you mind copy pasting the section? or perhaps a screenshot.
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Minor milestones usually occur at the end of a
session of play, or whenever one significant piece
of a story is resolved. A minor milestone allows
the characters to evolve in response to the story
that’s been unfolding before them.
When a minor milestone occurs, you may
choose one of the following:
- Switch the rank values of any two skills,
or replace one Average skill with one that
isn’t on your sheet. - Change any single stunt for another
stunt. - Purchase stunts or powers, provided you
have the refresh to do so. - Rename one aspect.
Minor milestones are ideal when you want
to switch the focus of your character’s existing
abilities or change something on the character
sheet, like a skill or the wording of an aspect.
Maybe something happens in the story that
makes part of your character’s sheet seem inappropriate,
or you’ve simply discovered that your
choice of skills, aspects, and stunts don’t match
your expectations in play.
Obviously, these changes should be justified
as much as possible, either within the story
(“Hey, my character’s contact died, so I think I
want to make his Joe the Reliable Contact
aspect into Vengeance for Joe, okay?”) or
as a result of play (“So I thought I wanted this
guy to have a Good (+3) Presence, but I’m not
really using it much—it’d be more fitting if he
had a lower Presence and a higher Rapport, so
I’m going to switch it out with my Fair (+2)
Rapport.”). If the skill you’re switching out is at
Average (+1), you may change it for a skill that
isn’t on your sheet. Be careful when switching
a character’s peak skills (his highest ones),
though—this can significantly change the character,
which is not the purpose of a minor milestone.
Keep it in character, so to speak.
Example: The GM announces that a minor
milestone has been reached. Fred, who plays
Biff Abernathy, decides that he’s not been
portraying the character as Playing The
Dumb Jock, and he’d rather change that to In
The Scrum, relating his tendency to face problems
head-on with his skill at rugby.
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Yup its the same, but doesn't justify the selling of skillpoints. Since the system is based on the books, examples from the stories would be appreciated.
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What the OP want's to do is to turn 2 level 1 skills, into 1 level 2 skill. (assume a valid skill pyramid)
This is not something you can do by the rules. You can replace one skill with another, but by the RAW, there is no way to "condense" your skills once you've spent your skill points.
He want's to go from (for example)
X
XXXX
to
XX
XX
that is not possible with minor milestones.
Actually, it's not possible at all when following the RAW.
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Bingo :D the two +1 skills are Stealth and Contacts. My caster just recently turned white wizard and recovered from having all consequences filled due to the trial and an assassination attempt by the knight of summer.
I define the event as making my character forgo subtlety and relying on others in exchange for power and control (Discipline from +3 to +4 and Conviction from +4 to +5).
Page 92 talks about redefining characters, as in making new ones based on old ones, but after a major milestone.
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So basically, you want to get stronger, but not make an effort out of it? Just swap out Stealth and Contacts for more concept-fitting skills at milestones and up your skills the normal way. Just because he got his arse handed to him, doesn't automatically make him more in control of himself of more sure of himself.
That means it's up to you and the GM to decide how to handle this. I don't know how long this game has been running, or how experienced you are with DFRPG, but if your character has only a few sessions under his belt, it is easier to justify, then when he has had a major milestone. Secondly, if you have experience with creating DFRPG characters, then you might expect less forgiveness from a GM.
The reason I think like this, is that you must have had some ideas as to why your character 'needed' Stealth or Contacts and now it seems you just decided you want to lose them to become more powerful without effort. Mind you, I say it seems like this, from your posts. It is a feeling and it might be wrong.
As an aside, I believe you meant page 91 about totally revising a character. If you want to do that, why not simply ask your GM that? Finally, just say you got a rather powerful bump on the head and you no longer have the ability for subtlety anymore, losing both skulking and friends because of that...
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Its better to have skills than to do not. If you don't use powers or stunts, the very least you can get fate points per refresh.
With skills you either wait like 5 milestones to get a +5 or simply rewrite them bit by bit.
We played sort of 8 sessions or more so far, and I have always assumed that you could re-arrange skillpoints this way.
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Getting rid of two level 1's to increase two different higher level skills... i don't think i'd allow that.
What i might allow under certain circumstances is to take two +1 skills, get rid of one of them, and then increase the second skill to +2. And only at that low level. No getting rid of a +1 to increase a +2 to a +3 or something like that.
But even that would require some kind of solid plot justification, and a significant milestone where it would use up the minor milestone benefit.
Under the "new Character" rule anything is possible of course, but that's really up to your gametable.
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I would be glad to sell a +1 for each minor milestone or higher, and use one milestone to add the points.
I told you the "event". I was shot by the knight of summer who has a sniper build, then went through the trials to be come a white wizard, which i did.
I would increase conviction and discipline by 1 point each and selling Stealth and Contacts.
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I don't know what else to say.
I would not allow the modification you are describing.
But in the end it's up to your Group/GM to rule on this.
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And the DM is loling I am at his mercy xD
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Wait, why not allow this?
I really don't see the problem.
Then again, I'm generally pretty powergaming-friendly.
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actually what is powergamy about this?
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I would (and have) allowed it, but if it isn't RAW then it's GM generosity, which the OP can't rely upon.
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@devonapple: Point. But I don't see why the GM wouldn't be generous here.
@Discipol: Well, getting the max number of peak skills is usually optimal. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. I'm a little mystified.
But Tsunami is a reasonable guy and a good player in my experience, so I expect he has a good reason.
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Sure, but just because they forgot to mention buyback, doesn't mean its against the principle. Plus the principle that a human is ever changing is mentioned and well.
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@devonapple: Point. But I don't see why the GM wouldn't be generous here.
I don't know, either, but per the OP, the GM is opting to disallow the proposed switch without a sustaining RAW citation.
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Its completely legal. Everybody has *every* skill by default, just at 0. Which means moving one point from a 1 point skill (making a 0 point skill) into something else is legal.
If you truly didn't have a rating in a skill you wouldn't be able to roll it as just 4dF.
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And it isn't all that hard to justify. For example moving Endurance 1 to Endurance 0 would be easy (I stopped working out and had too many cheetos).
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As Koffee reiterates, changing skills is legal. That was actually covered in the first few posts...including a quote from the text.
To point it out again, Minor Milestones allow "Switch the rank values of any two skills, or replace one Average skill with one that isn’t on your sheet."
Between the two, you can move skills up or down and on or off your character sheet. That said, it will take time. You're typically limited to changing two skills each milestone and the skill need to be close in value. You also need to maintain the skill pyramid. But work at it long enough and you can forget your strongest skill.
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Between the two, you can move skills up or down and on or off your character sheet. That said, it will take time. You're typically limited to changing two skills each milestone and the skill need to be close in value. You also need to maintain the skill pyramid. But work at it long enough and you can forget your strongest skill.
Exactly. The OP just wants to conflate several of these shifts at once rather than across a few Milestones.
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Technically, the RAW only allows you to switch the value of two skills (which oddly enough do not have to be within a point of each other unless one of them is at 'zero'). So, for example, you can swap Lore 1 (and Guns 0) for Guns 1 (and Lore 0), and you can even swap Lore 5 and Guns 1 for Guns 5 and Lore 1. But you can't swap Lore 2 (and Guns 0) for Guns 2 (and Lore 0). Using the strict interpretation of the RAW, the closest you can come to doing what you want is this, which would require a significant milestone:
Example:
You start with Guns 1 and Stealth 1, but want Lore 2 instead. So at a significant milestone, you swap Stealth 1 for Lore 1 (using your included minor milestone benefit), then add your new skillpoint to Lore. End result: you have Lore 2 and Guns 1 (this assumes, of course, that the new skill layout meets the requirements).
That said, I would fully support a houserule/clarification that would allow you (as a minor milestone option) to 'downgrade' one skill by a point, then either spend that point immediately to upgrade another skill by a point or bank the skill point. This would allow you to do exactly what you wanted to do (again, assuming the skill columns result in a legal configuration). My proposed house rule would not allow the 5/1 swap example I gave which is currently legal. I think that this is well within the spirit of the rules, and there's a good chance that this was actually what was intended to begin with.
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Exactly. The OP just wants to conflate several of these shifts at once rather than across a few Milestones.
Not quite. The OP wants to change the shape of the pyramid. There are configurations that are possible to take if you bank skill points, but impossible if you spend points at every milestone you get them.
Or the OP doesn't understand the pyramid at all. I'm not sure.
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For the record, I think that what you're describing is best represented by a change of aspect rather than an overhaul of your skills.
I think I'd be inclined to be more generous about manipulating the pyramid, so long as the end result was legal. Sometimes you need to tinker with your character build after you've seen it in action because it turned out to be not quite what you wanted.
Swapping out both of those skills should take two minor milestones, however. For a major milestone, you could probably justify major rewrites - like swapping your apex skill for one you didn't have before - depending on narrative events.
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Not quite. The OP wants to change the shape of the pyramid. There are configurations that are possible to take if you bank skill points, but impossible if you spend points at every milestone you get them.
Or the OP doesn't understand the pyramid at all. I'm not sure.
Excuse me but the pyramid is not rocket science, and in my example:
O
OOOO
to
OO
OO
Satisfies the pyramid. I understand it comfortably.
So turning it into
O
OO
then into
OO
OO
satisfies the pyramid in each step of the skillpoint injection.
I have heard from 800+ and 1500+ posters supporting downgrading skillpoints and I consider my question answered. If you would like to debate on it would be sweet.
Thank you for your interest and help :D Now lets go find those were-goats.
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I'm the aforementioned DM ... dunno if butting in is fair to the player or not but hey ... I actually want an answer to the question as well :D
The problem from my POV is this: player wants to go from
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Athletics 2, Rapport 2,
Presence 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1, Scholarship 1, Contacts 1
to
Lore 5, Conviction 5
Guns 4, Discipline 4
Endurance 3 , Athletics 3
Resources 2 , Rapport 2
Presence 1, Scholarship 1
My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.
IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).
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(I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).
Saving refresh points eventually gives you fate points however saving skillpoint points :D does not offer compensation. Thus, as a player I would think to use the max of my stats, even if they are +1, dunno how many times a 1 point was the difference between taking a bullet to the face and not taking it.
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O
OOOO
to
OO
OO
To nitpick, that would be
O
OOO
to
OO
OO
Your example would end up as
OO
OOO
My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.
I absolutely agree that a single minor milestone should not be enough to change all that. A major milestone, sure; that's supposed to be a big deal.
And again, even though the rules don't provide specifically for this sort of rearrangement, I'd be generous about letting small rules violations slide; especially if it supports the narrative more strongly.
If it's one of the first few sessions, or this player is new to the game or RPGs in general, I'd let him revamp his character, since he obviously changed his mind about what he wanted. Otherwise, I'd hesitate to set a precedent of being extremely cavalier about changing up character builds; at least force him to work gradually towards it until his next major milestone.
But once again, I feel that a change of aspect could easily account for what he's aiming at.
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IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).
Recommendation - go with the spirit of the rules and allow moving one skill up and one skill down each milestone. Let him bank unused points between milestones and, eventually, he'll get the change he wants.
May not follow the letter of the rules but it sticks to the spirit of allowing gradual change to occur.
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I let people forget as many skills as the want (move from 1-0) at a milestone, but don't let them buy up the new skills until a significant milestone.
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My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.
IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).
I can see why you are hesitant and agree with some others that you shouldn't just allows this change to happen 'overnight', certainly not in one minor milestone. This is a total revamp of the character and even if done at a major milestone, I might ask/require the player to sacrifice something else he might have also gained from that milestone. You are beig lenient, whether or not you'd follow the spirit of the rules for allowing this.
I, of course, believe the player must still find his character fun to play, but I also believe that this could've been foreseen. Either you dedicate to two skills at a higher level, at the cost of versatile lower levels, or you spread out the pyramids base more, become something of a 'jack-of-all-trades', it's not that difficult to grasp. Don't ask me why, but somehow this grinds my gears and I wouldn't allow it for a more experienced player/seasoned character.
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I'm the aforementioned DM ... dunno if butting in is fair to the player or not but hey ... I actually want an answer to the question as well :D
The problem from my POV is this: player wants to go from
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Athletics 2, Rapport 2,
Presence 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1, Scholarship 1, Contacts 1
to
Lore 5, Conviction 5
Guns 4, Discipline 4
Endurance 3 , Athletics 3
Resources 2 , Rapport 2
Presence 1, Scholarship 1
My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.
IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).
Ok, lets try to take that apart.
Provided that one allows Cashing in a level 1 skill as a Minor Milestone benefit.
What is he doing.
Selling Contacts
Selling Stealth
That's two minor milestones right there.
At this point he has two skillpoints saved, and still a valid pyramid.
Now he needs a Significant Milestone
Using the Minor Milestone Benefit to: Sell Alertness for another skillpoint... or maybe better to use the Skill point he gets anyways... but thats up to him.
This is the point where he can buy up the three skills he want's to raise, and if he sold Alertness he needs to do that, because he would otherwise no longer have a valid pyramid.
Conviction from 4 to 5
Discipline from 3 to 4 to fill the gap
Athletics from 2 to 3 to fill the gap
Increasing the skills is part of the significant milestone Benefit.
The result is a valid pyramid. and 1 skill point in the bank.
Needing 2 Minors and 1 Significant to get to.
That is if you allow cashing in, which i personally wouldn't. I can't tell you exactly why i wouldn't... it just doesn't feel right.
Usually you'd need 3 Significants to get there. (you would then of course still have the three level 1 skill, and no skill point in the bank. )
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Ok, lets try to take that apart.
Provided that one allows Cashing in a level 1 skill as a Minor Milestone benefit.
....
That is if you allow cashing in, which i personally wouldn't. I can't tell you exactly why i wouldn't... it just doesn't feel right.
I agree that it doesn't feel right. And the OP's GM feels the same way - which is the problem the OP is facing. A better subject line might have been "Reshaping the skill pyramid after character creation".
The RAW doesn't allow for this, and going from a jack of all (or at least some) trades to a specialist... that's a drastic change to the character.
Richard
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Well there was recently a major milestone, and this Sunday a minor one.
I would be fine selling those two points then and waiting for the next.
Alas, the GM made up his mind and no-ed it.
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Increasing the skills is part of the significant milestone Benefit.
I think I look at it a bit differently:
* A minor allows you to change your skill pool (increase a skill at the cost of an existing skill).
* A significant milestone allows you to increase your skill pool (increase a skill without taking away from an existing skill), and also perform a minor benefit (possibly including an additional change to your skill pool).
Given that, I think it's within the spirit of the rules to perform the change the player wanted in one minor plus one significant milestone, as follows:
Start:
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2,
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1, Contacts 1
Minor Milestone
(use the minor benefit to swap a point of Contacts for a (banked) point designated for use with Athletics):
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2(3),
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1
Note: At this point, actually increasing Athletics to 3 isn't legal, so it counts as Athletics 2 for now (the phantom third point is 'in the bank').
Significant Milestone
(use the 'bonus' minor benefit to swap a point of Stealth for a (banked) point designated for use with Discipline):
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3(4), Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2(3),
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Alertness 1
(apply the significant benefit to gain a (banked) skill point, designated for use with Conviction):
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4(5),
Discipline 3(4), Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2(3),
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Alertness 1
Note: At this point, the three banked skill points can take effect while keeping the skill columns legal:
Lore 5, Conviction 5,
Guns 4, Discipline 4,
Endurance 3, Athletics 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2,
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Alertness 1
This could also be done with three minor milestones (which would require trading in the Alertness 1 to provide the third skill point), or potentially during a major milestone (which allows for skill reconfiguration if appropriate).
I think this is a fair way of applying the rules within the spirit of the rules. You are only increasing skills by a single point per benefit. Note that the skill points aren't really 'banked' in the sense of becoming unallocated; instead they are shifted immediately to their new skill, though you are delaying the use of those skills until they legally fit into your skill columns.
But, as always, play it the way that makes the most sense to you at your table.
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the point is the skills aren't banked and the text in the book is missing, or was purposely not included to handling selling of the skillpoints.