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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: computerking on July 22, 2011, 07:23:53 PM

Title: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: computerking on July 22, 2011, 07:23:53 PM
OK. I’ve tried phrasing this question 3 times, and I can’t seem to get something that is easy to understand. So I’m just going to phrase it the way it’s rolling around in my head. In general, it is a question regarding allowability and the “flavor” of a spell’s effects. Here goes:

Let's say a player adds flavor to a fire spell effect description.  For example, instead of the standard gout or ball of fire flying at its target, the player wants to describe it as miniature imp-shaped flames flying from his hands. Without any prerequisite action like a Summoning spell, would a GM have to disallow this, although the player doesn’t intend to have the fire do anything different than normal fire, just look different?

In a similar vein, a Forzare-type Spirit spell  could just pile driver a target with invisible force, but could the same effect (But visible) be done by a Nichtomancer (Shadow-based Focused Practitioner) making a column of solid shadow to smash someone? Or would solid shadow be disallowed?

I used to play a lot of Mage: The Ascension, and coming up with weird unique spells still comes easily to me, I just haven’t fully sussed out what is allowable in the Dresdenverse.

Final example: Since Earth magic is linked to Electromagnetism, can an Earth based Block against leaving a zone be created by magneto-gravitically manipulating a flock of pigeons (who navigate via an ability to sense magnetic North) into kamikaze divebombing the zone borders (Lots of dead pigeons, ew)?

Yeah, I'm an odd sort of guy. You're just lucky I erased the post attempt involving spells from a Copromancer...
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: JediDresden on July 22, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
I am no expert, there are many on these forums who know more than me, but I believe you can describe the spell effect however you want.  A block is a block (or attack is an attack) no matter what theelement of medium of the spell.  I think the book makes the point that a shield of fire mechanically works just like a force shield.

In one of the books Harry sees a group of wardens all attack different ways; fire spells that look like lasers and shooting stars, etc.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: CottbusFiles on July 22, 2011, 07:53:07 PM
You can do whatever you want to.

BUT. Evocation is mostly the quick and dirty throwing around of energy.
I don't really the (canon) Dresden Files Style evocation as something totally "über flashy cool". You can throw tons of water at people. But it is hard to make it into the shape of a Leviathan that coils around you before smashing into your opponent.
You can throw a rock at your opponent but not shape it into a fist before you do.

Evocation is hard and is really quick. It's gather energy, concentrate, point, boom.

I don't really see the Imp thing working in that way. It uses to much power of the spell to keep the fire in this unnatural shape.
Harry would say this is cute but stupid.

The shadow thing is okay


Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on July 22, 2011, 07:53:43 PM
All of the examples you've given seem perfectly fine to me.

If a character can mechanically accomplish X with a spell, then what that spell looks/feels/tastes like doesn't matter at all, so long as it still accomplishes exactly X, no more, no less.

The only weirdness is when a player flavors a spell a certain way, then tries to get a mechanical advantage because of that.  This is often things like getting around an opponents armor or catch, or making clever use of scenery or terrain.  In these cases, it may be appropriate to ask the player to tag/invoke a scene aspect or one of their own aspects related to their style of magic in order to gain the added benefit.  Other times, you may just want to reward the creative thinking directly.

There's actually a section in the book (look for "A Block is A Block is A Block" in the Evocation section) that suggests you not worry much (if at all) about differences in elements and spell flavor, because at the end of the day, the mechanical effect will likely end up identical.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Morgan on July 22, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
I'd say that if all you're doing is adding color to your spells then that's just fine, it's when you want them to have a different effect because of that color that you might have some issues.

Take your basic blast of magical fire that does Weapon 5, I've had players describe that looking like all sorts of different things, hell I insist that they tell me what their blast of fire spell looks like. I've had basic fireballs, gouts of flame, waves of heat rippling though the air, even Chinese style dragons made of fire leaping at there enemies. Now the damage and every other thing about such a spell remains exactly the same mechanically no matter what it looks like.

So for instance if you want imps of fire to leap at and attack your opponent, that's fine just realize that you are not actually summoning imps you are making an Evocation Attack and using the image of imps constructed of fire as the spell's color/flavor. If you want to summon some actual imps, bind them to do your bidding and attack someone that is a totally different type of magic, and mechanics.

Shadowmancers flinging bolts of shadow at folks sounds like it would look awesome go for it, especially since you're Practitioner is basing his magic on the idea of magically controlling shadows to get tangible results. If you really limited shadow magic to what shadows can actually do it would be a pretty lame power.

Using Earth magic to manipulate a flock of pigeons sounds like a very cool idea again it is really just color/flavor the end result will be a block on a zone border, and I certainly wouldn't have any problem letting a player do it. After all it really isn't any different mechanically then if you'd thrown up a wall of earth or turned the ground into quicksand, a block is a block. However it is straying into lawbreaking territory, and if you're willing to sacrifice an entire flock of pigeons to stop someone or make your escape one day, then who knows what you might be willing to sacrifice the next?
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: admiralducksauce on July 22, 2011, 08:05:14 PM
Not only would your examples fly in my game, I'd be happy that you were throwing around more imaginative attacks than the bog-standard fireball.  As you say, it's just flavor, and that flavor is umami!   Carry on!  :)
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: CottbusFiles on July 22, 2011, 08:07:45 PM
even Chinese style dragons made of fire leaping at there enemies.

See, that is something that doesn't really fit into my view of the Dresden Files. (but i'm reading Ghost Story right now (not right now, but i will continue in the next few minutes) and there are a lot of completely new magic things seen in there). We haven't really seen such a thing in the Books.
It's cool as hell i give you that but it isn't really "throwing around the fundamental energies of the universe". I could see it stored in a magic item though...
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Morgan on July 22, 2011, 08:16:38 PM
See, that is something that doesn't really fit into my view of the Dresden Files. (but i'm reading Ghost Story right now (not right now, but i will continue in the next few minutes) and there are a lot of completely new magic things seen in there). We haven't really seen such a thing in the Books.
It's cool as hell i give you that but it isn't really "throwing around the fundamental energies of the universe". I could see it stored in a magic item though...

To be fair the Dragon made of fire example happened in a fairly high powered, high action, convention game where I was really encouraging them to go wild and be descriptive with their magic. It was also a very powerful spell, something like a Weapon 9 attack, so I let it go cause it was way more interesting and descriptive than the standard I shoot a really big fireball at him. Though I agree that it might be a bit much in a home game.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: NicholasQuinn on July 22, 2011, 08:26:28 PM
I'd say the Imps (even the Dragon stuff) fits, both in terms of the RPG and the DresdenVerse setting. I'm fairly certain the RPG book suggests that Cassius' snake spells are standard Evocation attacks/blocks/manoeuvres. Ditto for Justin's eels. Whilst as far as the DresdenVerse goes they might not quite be Evocation, they fit that way in the RPG, and it makes things interesting.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: CottbusFiles on July 22, 2011, 08:27:41 PM
I'd say the Imps (even the Dragon stuff) fits, both in terms of the RPG and the DresdenVerse setting. I'm fairly certain the RPG book suggests that Cassius' snake spells are standard Evocation attacks/blocks/manoeuvres. Ditto for Justin's eels. Whilst as far as the DresdenVerse goes they might not quite be Evocation, they fit that way in the RPG, and it makes things interesting.

But they are Spirit Element Evocation, not elemental.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: wyvern on July 22, 2011, 08:28:45 PM
It might be a bit much for a wizard using evocation, perhaps... but it'd fit right in with some kinds of sponsored magics.  (And, even if you rule that it's too complex an effect for raw evocation, remember that a sponsored magic has that whole thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation thing going.)

I've had someone throw a phoenix bomb (http://mixedmyth.comicgenesis.com/d/20010928.html) in the game I'm running.  Of course, that's not quite what he thought he was doing... ahh, compels.  Good times.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: CottbusFiles on July 22, 2011, 08:32:07 PM
It might be a bit much for a wizard using evocation, perhaps... but it'd fit right in with some kinds of sponsored magics.  (And, even if you rule that it's too complex an effect for raw evocation, remember that a sponsored magic has that whole thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation thing going.)

I've had someone throw a phoenix bomb (http://mixedmyth.comicgenesis.com/d/20010928.html) in the game I'm running.  Of course, that's not quite what he thought he was doing... ahh, compels.  Good times.

Phoenix bomb ? It explodes and revives from the ashes ?

And you are right about the Sponsor thing. I had a player that essentially created Green Lantern like Spirit Constructs. He was basically Alan Scott powerd by Jean Grays phoenix force...
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: NicholasQuinn on July 22, 2011, 08:38:31 PM
But they are Spirit Element Evocation, not elemental.

I honestly don't see that as being important, but then, I speak about my own table; at yours (and others) it might be an important distinction. To me, the lack of it being a Spirit Evocation is covered in that nothing tangible is being summoned, it is simply how the spell is shaped. Harry (with his self-admitted substandard Evocation) may stick to simple concepts when it comes to his direct magic, but others have been shown to shape it more. Lily's butterflies spring to mind (yes, she has Sponsored magic, which alters things), or even to a lesser extent Lucio's laser-beam. I don't see it as being an issue if a player wishes to throw Imp shaped fire spells at someone; so long as it remains a direct spell with no mechanical difference. Especially if the character has a high control.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: sinker on July 22, 2011, 08:52:33 PM
Actually, making fire into little fire Imps might be less effort to some people. The book points out that magic is entirely based on belief, not minor details like science. Harry believes that he's actually shaping the elements with his power, so his magic appears as a direct application of that element, but someone else could believe that they are summoning supernatural creatures that then manipulate the elements. For this person it would actually be more difficult to simply create a gout of flame.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: tetrasodium on July 23, 2011, 12:05:19 AM
Thge only cannon bits of evocation was shaped by
(click to show/hide)
It doesn't exactly seem to be the sort of thing normal humans could do on the fly.  I'd try to strongly discourage it and only allow it if it was the result of some current/prior seventh law breaking or strictly enforce any attempt to play up the caster's skills/power using the shaping as an example of it as autofail... If they want a seventh law violation though... sure.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Llayne on July 23, 2011, 01:13:48 AM
I'm with the 'it's all just visual' crowd. If fire can be fireballs, flamethrowers, heat waves, laser beams or shooting stars, it can just as easily be imp shamed fireballs.

The real question is why? What sort of twisted psyche finds it easiest to manifest their gift as imp shaped fireballs flying out from his body?   :P
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Haru on July 23, 2011, 01:24:14 AM
Let's say a player adds flavor to a fire spell effect description.  For example, instead of the standard gout or ball of fire flying at its target, the player wants to describe it as miniature imp-shaped flames flying from his hands. Without any prerequisite action like a Summoning spell, would a GM have to disallow this, although the player doesn’t intend to have the fire do anything different than normal fire, just look different?
The important part is, that magic comes from what the character believes. Mechanically, there is no difference between fireballs and impballs, and it is a fun variation. I can practically hear the impatient voice of a master wizard telling his (not so talented at fire magic) apprentice "Ok, one more time. Imagine the imps I showed you, they are creatures of fire. Now remember what they looked like, what they felt like. Capture their essence and shape it. Yes! Yes, you did it! You finally conjured a gout of flame. Seems like our trip to the planes of fire really had an imp-act."

I apologise for the pun. Still, things happen a certain way, because your character thinks it is the way they are supposed to happen. If he connects conjuring up fire with the image of an imp, go for it. As a GM, I might even one day go so far as to have you accidentally summon a real imp. Maybe as a harmless pet, a Bob-like companion or a minor villain or all of the above would probably depend on my mood ;)

Quote
In a similar vein, a Forzare-type Spirit spell  could just pile driver a target with invisible force, but could the same effect (But visible) be done by a Nichtomancer (Shadow-based Focused Practitioner) making a column of solid shadow to smash someone? Or would solid shadow be disallowed?
Why should it be disallowed? You are doing a standard magic action, namely an attack. How you describe it is up to you. Maybe the shadow is only a side effect from the spells energy bending light away, Einstein and all. Maybe the wizard is just conjuring stuff from the nevernever, that looks like shadows, but is actually really solid. Or you are sort of reverse-lasering, instead of focussing a beam of light you are removing everything, creating sort of a light-vacuum effect that results in a force against anything it touches.
Or you simply say "it's magical solid shadow" and roll with it.

Quote
Final example: Since Earth magic is linked to Electromagnetism, can an Earth based Block against leaving a zone be created by magneto-gravitically manipulating a flock of pigeons (who navigate via an ability to sense magnetic North) into kamikaze divebombing the zone borders (Lots of dead pigeons, ew)?
I would allow it, I think. In fact, you would probably even be able to do a quick declaration of a "Flock of Pigeons" and tag it on your spell for more oomph.

Quote
Yeah, I'm an odd sort of guy. You're just lucky I erased the post attempt involving spells from a Copromancer...
You're in good company. But what on gods earth is Copromancy?
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: noclue on July 23, 2011, 01:25:08 AM
My decision would be totally based on context and tone. If it fit the tone of the game we were playing, it's fine. If it didn't fit the tone, then I ask for color that did.

So, if we're playing a Dresdenish game, I would probably allow a block from freezing a flock of pigeons in place (in our game one wizard vaporized a bunch of holy water as a Maneuver in a RCV fight and my sorcerer used earth magic to freeze the droplets in place to make a block). However, I'd probably ask that a fire imp really be a fire imp.

If we were playing in a different universe, with a different tone, I might allow a fire spell to look like an imp. Depends of context.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: computerking on July 23, 2011, 01:30:47 AM

You're in good company. But what on gods earth is Copromancy?

Heh. Look up coprophilia, and shudder in disgust.  ;D

Thanks for all the input, folks! Keep the debate going, I like seeing the range of ideologies going on here!  :)
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Haru on July 23, 2011, 01:34:49 AM
Heh. Look up coprophilia, and shudder in disgust.  ;D

I'll take my brainbleach to go, thank you very much. :o
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: tetrasodium on July 23, 2011, 03:34:11 AM
Why should it be disallowed?

Remember the scene in Changes where Harry
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 23, 2011, 03:52:48 AM
I see no good reason to prohibit weird descriptions.

The game is not a Dresden novel simulator.

Also, the shape can't be used for intimidation purposes. Not unless you back it with a maneuver or Declaration.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: sinker on July 23, 2011, 05:57:21 AM
The shape can be used for intimidation purposes  and potentialy tagged as an aspect with the right sort of intimidation ploy

If one creates an aspect, then yes, it could be used for intimidation, but the same could be said of absolutely any spellcasting. That's not a unique quality.

My decision would be totally based on context and tone. If it fit the tone of the game we were playing, it's fine. If it didn't fit the tone, then I ask for color that did.

This I can agree with, you're always going to want any spellcasting to fit with the flavor of the game, but it will vary greatly from table to table, and even campaign to campaign.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: Haru on July 23, 2011, 10:52:11 AM
Remember the scene in Changes where Harry
(click to show/hide)
. The shape can be used for intimidation purposes  and potentialy tagged as an aspect with the right sort of intimidation ploy

It can be tagged, if the shape is an aspect, and to do it as an aspect, you'd have to do a maneuver, not an attack spell. Remember in TC, there were at least half a dozen different types of fire attacks flying over the island.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: CottbusFiles on July 23, 2011, 01:58:34 PM
Remember the scene in Changes where Harry
(click to show/hide)
That could have been two spells, the second one invoking the consequence the first one inflicted
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: tetrasodium on July 24, 2011, 01:09:57 AM
That could have been two spells, the second one invoking the consequence the first one inflicted
Yes it could have been but doing the imps as a single spell at no cost then tagging that as an aspect trying to play up the caster's control or links to some other being/source of power beyond that of their own should be disallowed without some kind of cost (i.e. increased difficulty, character aspect, etc)
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: sinker on July 24, 2011, 02:12:52 AM
What aspect is he tagging Tetrasodium? There needs to be an aspect for him to tag it, and mechanically this is no different from any other spell. It doesn't create an aspect for him to tag, period.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: tetrasodium on July 24, 2011, 02:23:05 AM
What aspect is he tagging Tetrasodium? There needs to be an aspect for him to tag it, and mechanically this is no different from any other spell. It doesn't create an aspect for him to tag, period.
Lets say the GM brings in an ectual imp or something, the character could use the imp shape of their spell as an example of something to convey a link of kinship/trustworthyness/etc to it, similar things could be applied to many other situations not directly involving actual imps.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: sinker on July 24, 2011, 02:43:12 AM
Then the character is maneuvering to create an aspect which he can tag in trying to persuade the imp, which he can do with any kind of magic.

There is no mechanical difference between two evocation attacks (gouts of flame or hordes of imps), or two evocation maneuvers (an imp aspect, or a food aspect). You're trying to create mechanical differences with thematic differences and were I GM in that situation I would simply call shenanigans and ask you to stop breaking the rules.
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: tetrasodium on July 24, 2011, 02:50:36 AM
You're trying to create mechanical differences with thematic differences and were I GM in that situation I would simply call shenanigans and ask you to stop breaking the rules.
my original point exactly, it should be made clear up front that it won't be tolerated if they attempt to play off the imp shape somehow
Title: Re: Odd Effects (or, "That Flavor Tastes weird")
Post by: sinker on July 24, 2011, 04:42:56 AM
Ah, I get it. Agreed then.