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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: fantazero on July 20, 2011, 02:01:32 AM

Title: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on July 20, 2011, 02:01:32 AM
Should an enchanted Sword be able to kill a loup garou?
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Morgan on July 20, 2011, 02:13:48 AM
Probably not unless it was inherited and made of silver.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: tetrasodium on July 20, 2011, 02:40:10 AM
Probably not unless it was inherited and made of silver.
Warden swords are a bit special in this particular case as...
(click to show/hide)
  It's hard to say with any certainty as it could go either way.  Mechanically it would probably be able to harm the loup garou and possibly disable it enough to be "effectively" dead until a little time goes by and the regeneration(recovery) kicks in.  The ability to
(click to show/hide)
could potentially bypass the immunity's catch
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: UmbraLux on July 20, 2011, 02:51:52 AM
Cutting through the enchantment would end the curse - not meet the catch requirements.  And I don't really see a warden sword as being capable of breaking a multigenerational curse capable of complete transformation.  :)  

That said, if it happened to be your mom's sword passed on to you...it may well meet the catch requirements. 

On a side note,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: tetrasodium on July 20, 2011, 02:57:35 AM
Cutting through the enchantment would end the curse - not meet the catch requirements.  And I don't really see a warden sword as being capable of breaking a multigenerational curse capable of complete transformation.  :)  

That said, if it happened to be your mom's sword passed on to you...it may well meet the catch requirements. 

On a side note,
(click to show/hide)
Your just cutting through a small part of it though, the recovery could kick in and repair the damage to the curse.  I highly doubt it would be able to kill one, hurt though... maybe
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Morgan on July 20, 2011, 03:21:37 AM
Warden swords are a bit special in this particular case as...
(click to show/hide)

Huh, interesting I don't remember Warden Swords being specifically called out as being made of
(click to show/hide)
. Can you point me to where that is?

Though even if they are the Inherited bit is really the important part for getting past a Loup-Garou's Physical Immunity. The sword's ability to break enchantments isn't anywhere near strong enough to get past a curse as powerful as the one that creates a Loup.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on July 20, 2011, 04:10:12 AM
Hi Tess!
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: sinker on July 20, 2011, 04:20:39 AM
IF they are silver then it might work. One can inherit something from someone while they still live, and technically you are "inheriting" it from it's creator... Just a thought.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 20, 2011, 04:30:23 AM
Tess?
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on July 20, 2011, 04:35:37 AM
Tess?

inside joke.  :)
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Grey Knight on July 20, 2011, 06:02:04 AM

As an aside though,  I wonder how a Knight of the Cross would fare against the monster?
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: crusher_bob on July 20, 2011, 06:14:23 AM
Interesting aside: assuming they are common, expect all Wardens to have a stockpile of silver and a Will naming other Wardens as their inheritors.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: mremann on July 20, 2011, 09:58:48 AM
As an aside though,  I wonder how a Knight of the Cross would fare against the monster?

By the rules of the All Creatures Are Equal Before God it should satisfy the catch of the Loup Garou's Phyiscal Immunity, after all the Swords are meant to bypass everything.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Rubycon on July 20, 2011, 10:53:55 AM
By the rules of the All Creatures Are Equal Before God it should satisfy the catch of the Loup Garou's Phyiscal Immunity, after all the Swords are meant to bypass everything.
That's exactly as I see it, too.

By the way, I like the idea of an inherited Warden's Sword. Such Swords aren't made as a mass product, that's for sure. And some wardens will have gotten theirs from another warden, probably their father / mother...
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Grey Knight on July 20, 2011, 11:05:04 AM
By the rules of the All Creatures Are Equal Before God it should satisfy the catch of the Loup Garou's Phyiscal Immunity, after all the Swords are meant to bypass everything.

Yeah, that is my guess too... but that sounds too easy somehow...

Anyway, welcome to the forum.  I hope you like it here.  I feel oddly honored that your first post was a response to mine  :). 


Make sure to keep all appendages inside the vehicle at all time.  No shirt, No shoes, No problem.  Go ahead and pass go, but make sure not to collect $200.  And last but not least, make sure you call Paynesgrey "My Gatekeeper", and Shecky only replies to Sexxxy Shexxy. And Shecky loves you to pm him pictures of spiders.  Seriously.

*says all of this with a straight face.*
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Masurao on July 20, 2011, 11:40:40 AM
Yeah, that is my guess too... but that sounds too easy somehow...

Somehow I fail to see your definition of easy, when it comes to bringing a sword to a loup-garou-fight...
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Ren on July 20, 2011, 12:42:57 PM
I and my group seem to recall reading a description somewhere that warden sword were made with Silver in the metal, though how much I couldn't say, so I'm going with that for my own game. It's more a matter of inheritance, and from the books it seems that the Warden's Swords were custom-made for each Warden as a badge of office and thus not many would have been handed down. The question is, how is inheritance defined? IS it law, intent or bloodline? Murphy got her earrings from a grandmother, but was she given them by the grandmother or handed them over? I don't think a simple will wwuld suffice, I think there has to be some sort of connection between the original owner and the current owner, whether it be by blood or love or whatever. But does it have to skip a generation? I.E. can a husband pass a silver object to his wife before he dies?
I think I'm getting picky on the technical definition of "Inheritance" and for the purposes of my game I'm going to define Inheritance as "Passing of an object from one person, the original owner, to another who is either of the original owners bloodline or the original owner considers to be family, i.e. inheritance by intent." 
The original question that generated this thread came form my campaign and planning for an upcoming battle that involves a Denarian riding a Voudoun Priest, a Loup-Garou, a Swamp-dwelling Clan of Were-Gators (The traditional kinds of Weres) and the Cult that follows the Denarian. One of the player characters is a Warden with a Warden sword that he was given by a retiring warden, though it was not truly inherited as they were not family. Another player is  Pure Mortal but but was recently adopted by a former Grey Warden who gave her his sword so that IS an inherited weapon so she could use it against a Luop-Garou just fine even if she couldn't actually use the Warden Abilities of thew sword (It's just a pointy stick).
Yes it will be an ugly battle and no they are not alone in it.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on July 20, 2011, 01:10:07 PM
One of my Characters is Brian Moman, who makes Shaft look like Bee Arthur. Brian will use his mighty intellect and manly good looks to tear the Loup apart with his bare hands

I fixed that for you  ;D
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Masurao on July 20, 2011, 02:41:32 PM
Inherited silver, I think, means an item that had emotional value of some kind, or at least was in the possession of the family for a sizable amount of time. You couldn't have your granny buy a bunch of silverware and say, "Here, sonny, I leave this to you" and then simply hand it over. Even with all the best intent, that's not inheriting, it's simply giving stuff away.

I do agree somebody doesn't have to die to give something away as an inheritance and perhaps a retiring Warden could be acceptable for that. Of course, he'd had have used that Sword for quite a few years, or during some seriously stressful endeavours. I'd also say that the receiving person would need to be special to the original owner of the silver item, if it isn't an inheritance after a death. (Otherwise your great-great-grandmother's silver platter wouldn't count, as she could have hardly known you to be special ;))
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: kihon on July 20, 2011, 02:48:52 PM
"...sounds too easy..."

Really?  There are THREE of them in the WORLD.  To easy....

I disagree with "too easy" -- but I do agree that they would satisfy the catch (of anything)...
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: zenten on July 20, 2011, 04:50:33 PM
I'm curious about the whole "warden's swords being silver" thing, because it impacts whether or not they're going to satisfy the Catch of a Fey.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Richard_Chilton on July 20, 2011, 06:16:07 PM
A warden's sword slices through spells, but not necessarily the effects of a spell.

For example:
I toss a fireball at a warden.  The warden uses his sword to slice it in half, ruining the spell.
I toss a fireball at the ceiling above a warden.  If burning debris fails on the warden then it falls on him - and his sword can't change that.


If a warden with a warden's sword had been there when the Saint originally leveled the curse then he could have sliced "the spell", but there is no active spell on the Loup Garou.  It is a man under the effects of a spell, not a spell to be cut through.

So in my opinion, a warden's sword wouldn't work on a Loup Garou that way.

Looking at the sliver side of things - the amount of silver in a warden's sword would be barely a trace element (if it is there at all - I don't remember it being there but I could be wrong).  It's like talking about the trace amounts of silver that you find in water being enough to hurt a werewolf - that is it's stretching the concept beyond what fits.  That's before we debate the word "inherited".

Storywise, if all you need is to call out the local warden to deal with the beast then it stops being a special, rare, and dangerous creature - and becomes a monster of the week.

To sum up:
No active spell to be slice through.
Not enough silver to count.
Dead warden, grinning Loup Garou.

Of course, this is only my opinion - using the RAW and the world as written.

Richard
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: polkaneverdies on July 20, 2011, 07:04:05 PM
The swords aren't made of silver. There is a woj kicking around about them the latter half of which talks about their mundane side.

To paraphrase "They are made with the best available alloys at the time of their construction by a master of the craft.

It would be helpful if someone could search serack's thread for the actual quote. That is a little challenging to do from my phone.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Ren on July 20, 2011, 09:12:53 PM
In my game the sword that was inherited did have silver used in its construction. Why? Because someone spent a fate point to Declare it so...8)
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: LordScythe on July 20, 2011, 10:47:12 PM
Jim goes into very great detail about Warden Swords in the books.  Can't remember what book it is but it is very specific and repeated in many of them.  I do recall them being referred to as "silver sword of the Wardens"  Dead Beat, chapter 39. 

Captain Luccio  explains to Harry about Warden swords in White Knight!   Check out Chapter 22 of White Knight if you want to know why. That will explain everything without me posting spoilers! I can state that they are definitely not mass produced and it is very unlikelyt for them to be inherited. 
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 21, 2011, 01:29:47 AM
No luck finding the quote that polka mentioned.

Away from books right now and so unable to fully reply to LordScythe.

"silver sword of the Wardens" could just describe colour.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Serack on July 21, 2011, 02:13:24 AM
The swords aren't made of silver. There is a woj kicking around about them the latter half of which talks about their mundane side.

To paraphrase "They are made with the best available alloys at the time of their construction by a master of the craft.

It would be helpful if someone could search serack's thread for the actual quote. That is a little challenging to do from my phone.

I believe that's from the text.  However a quick search in the pertinent books for "material" on my nook didn't turn it up.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 21, 2011, 02:19:19 AM
Huh, I didn't know you payed attention to this forum.

Or do you just have a quasi-magical ability to sense when people need WoJ help?
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: TheRealMe on July 21, 2011, 03:52:15 AM
From Bob the Skull, in Fool Moon:

"Only a silver weapon can hurt a loup-garou, and not only that, the silver has to be inherited from a family member."

Also, in game terms, at least, a Warden's Sword can only cut through a level 6 enchantment.  I'm pretty confident that the MacFinn bloodline curse is stronger than that. 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: LordScythe on July 21, 2011, 07:04:22 AM
Read the Luccio stuff she tells Harry everything about them!  I have read the series at least 6 times and listened to audio once.  I am sure of my facts... Not to mention I would never post without rereading. I concede that it could be color in that post as well, however I am positive it is referring to the material and color.  That might be a ask Jim question.  My theory is it would be redundant to refer to it as silver over and over again unless it was going to be important later on.  The Material it is made of would seem a more important fact than it being just a description of color. 
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Serack on July 21, 2011, 12:09:18 PM
Huh, I didn't know you payed attention to this forum.

Or do you just have a quasi-magical ability to sense when people need WoJ help?

not too far off on that, cept unlike wizards, I get my heroin from sharing info, so here's how I do it.

If you click on the search link near the top left of the page, there is an option on that page for "advanced search"

Within there I make the Search for: field "WoJ," leave the by user: as "*" and then make the Message Age between zero and whatever my last search was.

Then I repeat the process with "Serack" to see if anyone has responded to something I have said with a quote or specifically referred to me within their post.  This really helps me see when someone has responded to something I said in a topic I am no longer closely following.

If I am looking for a forum based WoJ that I'm a little fuzzy on which topic I put it under in the compilation (Forum WoJ's are frequently more diverse in the topics they cover within a single response) I usually use the same function and put "jimbutcher" in the by user: field.

reading some of the earlier responses that didn't talk about WoJ...

Jim goes into very great detail about Warden Swords in the books.  Can't remember what book it is but it is very specific and repeated in many of them.  I do recall them being referred to as "silver sword of the Wardens"  Dead Beat, chapter 39. 

Captain Luccio  explains to Harry about Warden swords in White Knight!   Check out Chapter 22 of White Knight if you want to know why. That will explain everything without me posting spoilers! I can state that they are definitely not mass produced and it is very unlikelyt for them to be inherited. 

certainly, in fact Jim touches on how difficult it would be for another wizard to use a different warden's sword here:

Quote from: mysterious galexy Q&A
Will Harry get a sword?
He can't because Luccio can't make them any more.  I suppose he could use another warden's sword if he became enough like them.  Morgan's sword for example (smirk).  If he shared the same kind of psychological profile as Morgan, if he ever got beat into that shape, he could probably be able to pick up his sword and use it.  Naw Harry is more of a gun guy really. 
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: polkaneverdies on July 21, 2011, 11:55:35 PM
Will someone please go to the WOJ topic.  Then type "jimbutcher wardens" into the search function. The 7th item that comes is a link to jims post in a thread.
Re:DF: magical items
please quote or link to it since my device will not.
thanks in advance.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Serack on July 22, 2011, 01:28:50 AM
Will someone please go to the WOJ topic.  Then type "jimbutcher wardens" into the search function. The 7th item that comes is a link to jims post in a thread.
Re:DF: magical items
please quote or link to it since my device will not.
thanks in advance.

Doh, I feel silly now.  When I did my search for jim posts with swords, I missed the fact that there was a 2nd page, with that post on it.  Sorry I missed it, and thanks for making it exceedingly obvious PND

Here's the info that's been searched for: 

Quote
Swords - All Wardens prior to Harry are armed with a sword which is (Per Jim) "super good for cutting through/disrupting fields of magical energy.  They rip through magic-charged ectoplasm of the nevernever, like the kind demons make when they need a body to inhabit in the real world, like there's no tomorrow.  Otherwise, they are simply swords created by a master of the craft with centuries of experience from the finest alloys available at the time of their creation." As Luccio explained in White Night, these swords are unique for each Warden, and were all made by Luccio. With her recent body-swap, Luccio no longer has the ability to make more swords, thus Harry has not been provided with one. Luccio refers to her "design", implying that there is a common language for creating such items, and therefore another wizard may be able to make these swords in the future.

They don't cut through anything.  They are super good for cutting through/disrupting fields of magical energy.  They rip through magic-charged ectoplasm of the nevernever, like the kind demons make when they need a body to inhabit in the real world, like there's no tomorrow.  Otherwise, they are simply swords created by a master of the craft with centuries of experience from the finest alloys available at the time of their creation.

Jim
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: polkaneverdies on July 22, 2011, 01:35:32 AM
Thanks for the assist serack. You were supremely helpful as always. :)
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 22, 2011, 01:44:15 AM
Very clever, Serack.

I bow to your superior search-fu.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Ren on July 23, 2011, 12:31:20 PM
And there we have it...8)
Thanks Serack! I'm still going with the idea that the Inherited Sword was made with enough Silver to do the job as it was made pre-Luccio and also because a Fate Point was spent to make it so. I don't have a huge issue with this as it's current owner is a pure mortal so it's just a really well-made sword with silver in it. I could always have it explode dramatically...8)
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Alberich on August 09, 2011, 12:56:24 PM
And there we have it...8)
Thanks Serack! I'm still going with the idea that the Inherited Sword was made with enough Silver to do the job as it was made pre-Luccio and also because a Fate Point was spent to make it so. I don't have a huge issue with this as it's current owner is a pure mortal so it's just a really well-made sword with silver in it. I could always have it explode dramatically...8)

Good Luck bringing a Sword to a Loup Garou Fight on a pure mortal. It is breaking alot of already confirmed information for the Dresden universe but then again it is always your game.

My real problem with reading this whole thread is of course, how boring it is.  Your specificly handing your players enemies they are already equiped to defeat. Wheres the fun in that? thats just hack'n slash.  It would be better for them to have to figure out what the Loup Garou is in this encounter and figure a means around it not through it. Perhaps finding another weakness? or a ally who is equiped to defeat one (Knight of the Cross anyone?). Also keep in mind in general Loup Garou are CURSED its not their choices to do what they do. Most from what we know hate it and despise themselves for it but can do little to help themselves. They need help, not being killed as a monster of the week.
What if the Loup garou had powerful allies or friends and seek revenge after the players kill him? and play this up for all its worth. Also remember part of the Loup Garou curse is that the bloodline will never die, this garantees it has a kid somewhere who may hold a grudge against the strangers who came into town and killed their parent.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: polkaneverdies on August 09, 2011, 03:07:50 PM
Part of macfinn's curse was that the bloodline would never die. That doesn't mean that the same thing applies for all loup garou.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Alberich on August 09, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
Part of macfinn's curse was that the bloodline would never die. That doesn't mean that the same thing applies for all loup garou.

True from our only example in the books. But from the universal houserule to gaming it just makes the story better by adding more plot and story options later and of course my personal favorite, Players actions having positive and negative results for the over-all story.

Maybe the players can make amends for their actions by helping break the bloodline curse? or similar deeds.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on August 09, 2011, 07:46:22 PM
*I'm a player in this game*
So my player and another player took on the Loup, but he was hard as hell to get. I took off his arm, and was ready to take him out, when a 3rd character found his heart in a Jar (also that player was the Werewolves son) broke the jar, destroyed the heart, killed the beast.

This was also in the middle of an Epic fight full of Were-Crocs, Were-Gators, Cultists, and Gator-Demi gods.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: polkaneverdies on August 09, 2011, 08:13:03 PM
Sounds like a fun battle.
Why was the nigh invincible monster's heart in a jar?
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on August 09, 2011, 08:23:21 PM
Sounds like a fun battle.
Why was the nigh invincible monster's heart in a jar?
I dont remember, so you couldnt get to it? I forget.
It made sense at the time.
I would keep my heart in a safe, underground.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Masurao on August 09, 2011, 08:47:36 PM
I was thinking that one thing about this 'heart in a jar' business bugged me, namely: How did he get the heart out?! But then it hit me: he isn't as invulnerable as a human. :)

What kind of power-level are we talking here?
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Silverblaze on August 11, 2011, 02:52:53 AM
I think it bears mention that a "pure mortal" in this system can be quite nasty with enough refresh, stunts and skill.  All the powers in the world don't help if you can't roll defense or attack to save your life (literally).

Example: mortal with 5 to 6 in a skill versus something or someone with a 3-4. 

Not saying a Loup Garou should have low skills, but it easily could if hte GM decided to use it in a lower powerl level game or in one with mostly mortals.  It is just a tweak to stats afterall.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Masurao on August 11, 2011, 08:57:00 AM
I think it bears mention that a "pure mortal" in this system can be quite nasty with enough refresh, stunts and skill.  All the powers in the world don't help if you can't roll defense or attack to save your life (literally).

Example: mortal with 5 to 6 in a skill versus something or someone with a 3-4. 

Not saying a Loup Garou should have low skills, but it easily could if hte GM decided to use it in a lower powerl level game or in one with mostly mortals.  It is just a tweak to stats afterall.

I understand what you are saying, but why in the frickin' heck would you use a loup-garou in a low-power game?! And why tone it down? Use hexenwulfs instead. If there ever was one creature meant to singularly inspire fear and awe, it is a loup-garou. If a Pure Mortal takes off an arm of such a creature... Let's just say: way beyond suspension of disbelief, IMO
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: fantazero on August 11, 2011, 11:18:42 AM
I understand what you are saying, but why in the frickin' heck would you use a loup-garou in a low-power game?! And why tone it down? Use hexenwulfs instead. If there ever was one creature meant to singularly inspire fear and awe, it is a loup-garou. If a Pure Mortal takes off an arm of such a creature... Let's just say: way beyond suspension of disbelief, IMO
1.The mortal was the one and only Brian Moman
2. He was using a 50bmg anti armor inherited silver round from a 50cal sniper rifle and had good rolls and tagged a bunch of stuff and had placed temp aspects on the thing. Also he was in fighting several big Nashua so it was a cheap shot.
Title: Re: loup garou vs Warden Sword
Post by: Masurao on August 11, 2011, 11:31:26 AM
1.The mortal was the one and only Brian Moman
2. He was using a 50bmg anti armor inherited silver round from a 50cal sniper rifle and had good rolls and tagged a bunch of stuff and had placed temp aspects on the thing. Also he was in fighting several big Nashua so it was a cheap shot.

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up! I thought you meant it was taken off with a sword hit or something! Hahaha, now I can certainly see it happening :D