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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JediDresden on July 18, 2011, 08:44:47 PM
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My character picked up a Cival War Calvary Saber during an adventure, which would be a weapon 2. Now my question is this - could he enchant it to be a more powerful sword? He is just starting out as a wizard with a Lore of 4 and Thaumaturgy specialization of crafting with frequency +1. Could he enchant it to be a weapon 6 2x day? His Lore of 4 would be added to the weapon 2 - is that right?
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There are no specific rules for this in the books at all.
The most definitely by-the-book thing to say is that an enchanted item can replicate an evocation attack with a number of shifts equal to your Lore, and that it's up to the player and GM to determine the skill used to target the attack. So, with a Lore of 4, your sword could perform a 4-shift (i.e. equivalent to a Weapon:4 attack) evocation twice per session (note that DFRPG uses *sessions*, not *days*, to measure these things), targeted with the weapons skill. By default, this wouldn't stack with the weapon rating the sword already has.
That said, feel free to work with your GM to come up with anything you like to handle this, so long as you agree it's balanced and can work together to tweak it if it becomes problematic. Stacking the two damage ratings (the 4 from the enchanted item and the 2 from the weapon itself) is probably not horribly imbalanced. However, it may set a bad precedent for abuse of the enchanted item rules later on.
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I was wondering about that imbalance as well, but I was also thinking of the claws (weapon 2) and inhuman strength (+2 to damage) stacking for a weapon 4 attack, IIRC - I do not have books with me right now.
My reasoning would be that he somehow strengthens the metal somehow in the blade with his magic ( the wizard is an earth magic specialist so I am sure I could work in something with the metal story-wise).
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The easiest way to enhance a weapon is to give it aspects, magical or mundane, temporary or constant, whatever would fit your needs.
Give it a maneuver spell that is going to last for a scene (things like "brimming with power", "superheated" or "supernaturally sharp" for example), you can activate it before you go into a fight (or even during a fight, if need be) and you will have 1 free tag on it, and if you need, there will be more available by the use of fate points. And as an enchanted item, you can activate it again for 1 mental stress.
You could give it mundane aspects, too, if for example it was made by the worlds best bladesmith or something like that, a weapon can have a story as much as a character, if your GM is ok with it.
I would never let a weaponrating and a spell hit at the same time. You either unleash the spell on the item or do a weapon attack, even if the weapon needs to connect to let the spell hit. At least that is the way I see it.
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I'd agree with EdgeOfDreams take on this the enchantment wouldn't stack with the normal damage, look at the Warden Sword as an example it doesn't do a 3 or 9 power level counterspell so I'd say that the Weapon 6 damage enchantment only takes the spell into account not the sword's base damage. Now a Weapon 4 enchantment twice a session is still nothing to sneeze at.
As for the justification for a Wizard with a Crafting specialty being able to enchant a sword to be a better sword I don't think you need one, it's what the character does with his magic. The only problem would be if he just picked the sword up he couldn't instantly make it into an enchanted item, he has to get it back to the lab/forge put some time into it and make with the magic. If you want to pick up a sword on the battlefield and enchant it right there, then that's really more of a maneuver to place a magical aspect on the sword that can be tagged later, which is not making it into an enchanted item.
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Weapon 4 2/session.
However, because of this, he'd be better off having it have an aspect like Haru said.
"Energy Blade" "Absurdly Sharp" "Deadlier" or anything else works. Tag for free +2 (which would increase accuracy by two, thus also increasing potential damage). Since your potential damage also goes up by 2, and you are more likely to hit, this is superior to simply having a Weapon 4 rating 2/session.
Other options include placing a "Poisoned" or "Rotting/Necrotic" aspect on the target, which they could then tag for effect. This is pushing a Lawbreaker though.
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So if my lore is 4 put an aspect on it like 'deadly sharp' for 3 shifts (because of the aspect), I could use 1 more to make it usable by others, and because of my crafting specialty have it useable 2 x a day instead of just once - right?
And when my crafting gets high enough could I place 2 aspects on it and choose which ones I want to invoke when I use the daily uses?
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So if my lore is 4 put an aspect on it like 'deadly sharp' for 3 shifts (because of the aspect), I could use 1 more to make it usable by others, and because of my crafting specialty have it useable 2 x a day instead of just once - right?
And when my crafting gets high enough could I place 2 aspects on it and choose which ones I want to invoke when I use the daily uses?
Sounds right, except when you have the two aspects you'll get to tag both of them each time you activate the sword. The spell creates both at once.
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Thanks for the help.
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Another way to do it could be thaumaturgy to put a sticky aspect on it.
Complexity would be 3 per aspect (standard for a maneuver), plus around 10 to move up the time chart to 'half a year, depending on how long the GM says the aspects last otherwise.
So, 13-15 shifts on a spell, and then you could just spend a fate point to boost the weapon roll by 2 at any time. Depending on how many fights you get into and how many FP you have spare, this may be a better option.
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Another way to do it could be thaumaturgy to put a sticky aspect on it.
Complexity would be 3 per aspect (standard for a maneuver), plus around 10 to move up the time chart to 'half a year, depending on how long the GM says the aspects last otherwise.
So, 13-15 shifts on a spell, and then you could just spend a fate point to boost the weapon roll by 2 at any time. Depending on how many fights you get into and how many FP you have spare, this may be a better option.
This seems wasteful. I know at least every character I've made can probably invoke one of his aspects to give a bonus on an attack. It would cost a fate point. Thus, it's silly to spend effort to place aspects that I'm not getting free tags for.
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One thing to keep in mind is.
When you enchant the sword to be given an aspect x times per session, then activating that aspect is an action by itself. That means that attacking with your enhanced sword takes two rounds. One round to activate the aspect (a maneuver), and another one to do the attack (for which you can now tag the aspect).
If you enchant a sword to act as Weapon:x for y times per session, then activating the enchantment is the attack.
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One thing to keep in mind is.
When you enchant the sword to be given an aspect x times per session, then activating that aspect is an action by itself. That means that attacking with your enhanced sword takes two rounds. One round to activate the aspect (a maneuver), and another one to do the attack (for which you can now tag the aspect).
Where do you get this from? Tagging / invoking existing aspects should be part of the action they're giving a bonus. Or are you talking about creating the aspect via maneuver and then tagging it?
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Activating an enchanted item is an action, regardless of what it does. So what Tsunami is saying is that if your enchanted item is an attack then you activate it and attack in one action. If it maneuvers then you activate it to add aspects, and then on the next exchange you attack.
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Where do you get this from? Tagging / invoking existing aspects should be part of the action they're giving a bonus. Or are you talking about creating the aspect via maneuver and then tagging it?
There is also this little bit of information, from the definition of "Tag" on p98 of "Your Story":
Tag: On any aspect you create or discover in
a scene, get the first invocation for free (as in,
without spending any fate points).
Emphasis on the "you create or discover in a scene". If you created the aspect in a different scene, you don't get to tag it in this one.
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@sinker: Activating an enchanted item is not always an action separate from using it. Defensive items are clearly reactionary (YS280) and items such as Harry's rings appear to be used as part of the attack. For that matter, the text on YS279 appears to tie activation rolls primarily to targeted spells. "It's possible that using an enchanted item will require some kind of skill roll, particularly if it needs to be targeted..."
@benign: We're discussing more than just tags. It's also worth noting enchanted items and potions often give you a free tag outside of the scene where you set them up. ;)
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So if I am following the post correctly we have two possible options being discussed here
1. A real sharp sword (weapon 2) being enhanced via magic to weapon 4 twice per session. (Lore 4/frequency crafting bonus) The magic is the attack so all done in one swoop.
or
2. The same sword...or maybe a not sharp replica...easier to get by those pesky mall cops...that is transformed into "Incredibly sharp" by the magic twice per session. It then becomes weapon 2 with a free tag on the aspect to bump it up...it remains sharp for the scene and then fades waiting to be activated later. An action to activate the sword at the start of the fight then an action to attack and tag the aspect.
(it was just created at the start of the scene so that works for each activation of the power)
Both seem like good options just a matter of flavor...But in both cases..How would they recharge?
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Or are you talking about creating the aspect via maneuver and then tagging it?
Yes i am.
With Activating the aspect i meant activating the enchantment to create the aspect. I see how that could be misunderstood.
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... and items such as Harry's rings appear to be used as part of the attack.
They are not used as part of the attack. Using the Rings IS the attack.
For that matter, the text on YS279 appears to tie activation rolls primarily to targeted spells.
Activating the Maneuver would not need a roll, but it would still take up the normal action for one round. forcing you wait to the next round to attack.
But i'm just realizing that we are starting to talk in circles here.
Lets just sum up
If the Enchantment is an attack, for example Weapon:4, 2 times per session, then using that enchanted item IS the attack.
Hence 1 action to attack with the enchanted sword.
If the Enchantment is a maneuver that creates an aspect on the sword, for example "absurdly sharp", then activating this enchantment to create the aspect is one action, and attacking with the blade while tagging the aspect is another.
Hence 2 actions to attack with the enchanted sword.
2. The same sword...or maybe a not sharp replica...easier to get by those pesky mall cops...that is transformed into "Incredibly sharp" by the magic twice per session. It then becomes weapon 2 with a free tag on the aspect to bump it up...it remains sharp for the scene and then fades waiting to be activated later. An action to activate the sword at the start of the fight then an action to attack and tag the aspect.
(it was just created at the start of the scene so that works for each activation of the power)
Both seem like good options just a matter of flavor...But in both cases..How would they recharge?
Actually, in case of version 2. One would most likely reduce the power to 3, so that a fragile aspect is generated, and put the remaining shifts into uses. The aspect would then stay for 1 round, giving you just enough time to benefit from the free tag. Taking the values the OP gave in the first post that would mean a fragile aspect, three times per session. And as usual more uses can be gained by taking 1 point of mental stress.
Recharging would happen automatically between sessions, it's part of how enchanted items work.
Narration of this recharging process, if necessary, is totally up to you.
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They are not used as part of the attack. Using the Rings IS the attack.
Yes, that was my point.
Taking two actions to 1) activate and 2) use an enchanted item appears to be an exception, not the rule. Enchanted items causing Attacks are canonically a single action (the attack / targeting roll), Blocks are canonically a single reflexive action (part of the defense), and Maneuvers appear to be left up to individual groups without any overt comments one way or the other. I tend to go with what makes sense for the item. A potion obviously needs to be drunk but a tailored shirt enchanted to put the aspect Well Dressed Man on it's wearer could be used at any time while its worn.
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Actually, in case of version 2. One would most likely reduce the power to 3, so that a fragile aspect is generated, and put the remaining shifts into uses. The aspect would then stay for 1 round, giving you just enough time to benefit from the free tag. Taking the values the OP gave in the first post that would mean a fragile aspect, three times per session. And as usual more uses can be gained by taking 1 point of mental stress.
Recharging would happen automatically between sessions, it's part of how enchanted items work.
Narration of this recharging process, if necessary, is totally up to you.
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I don't think i would play it that way myself, the sword being a sword for a scene is more beneficial than one extra use of the aspect per session, but your mileage may vary
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@benign: We're discussing more than just tags. It's also worth noting enchanted items and potions often give you a free tag outside of the scene where you set them up. ;)
I know you are, but I was chipping in specifically to add my 2 cents about the tagging issue. Also, it is my contention that, in order to have a potion or enchanted item lay down an aspect that is taggable, that aspect must be established in the current scene. In other words, yeah you might have prepared the potion beforehand, but you have to drink it in this current scene (an action) to be able to tag the aspect that it creates. Is that clearer?
The reason I think this distinction is important is because it prevents a wizard from setting up a thaumaturgical ritual every morning that lays six aspects on himself, which he then tags the immediately when he gets in a fight later that day for ludicrous gibs.
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@CaptFisher: The sword is always a sword. There's no reason why you couldn't get an actual sword that normally is weapon 2, and then enchant it to create an aspect (then it's a total 4 bonus).
Something else to keep in mind is that fragile aspects have no duration other than "after it has been tagged." They stick around indefinitely until they are used and then they go away. Technically one is supposed to tag an aspect quickly, but even that period of time isn't really well defined in the RAW. So fragile aspects definitely don't stick around long, but there is no point where it says they only stick around for one exchange.
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Also, it is my contention that, in order to have a potion or enchanted item lay down an aspect that is taggable, that aspect must be established in the current scene. In other words, yeah you might have prepared the potion beforehand, but you have to drink it in this current scene (an action) to be able to tag the aspect that it creates. Is that clearer?
Whether or not to somehow establish it's existence in the current scene is left up to individual groups. I don't think it makes sense for all items but YMMV. However, establishing an aspect does not necessarily require an action. Declarations are the obvious example but I'd also include most items you carry. After all, they're already there by definition.
The reason I think this distinction is important is because it prevents a wizard from setting up a thaumaturgical ritual every morning that lays six aspects on himself, which he then tags the immediately when he gets in a fight later that day for ludicrous gibs.
I see this general idea as a valid use of a ritual. That said, six aspects would be an expensive* ritual and probably take much longer than a morning to plan and set up. :) One is far easier and two may be possible with some planning.
*Ritual math: Three shifts plus duration per aspect. Aspect duration begins at 'scene' (or about fifteen minutes). So a single day long aspect would cost 8 shifts of power. More if you count a three shift aspect as fragile and lasting less than a scene. Your six aspect spell would cost 48 (or more) shifts. Not something easily done in a morning. ;)
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Thanks for the response.
My math works out a bit differently. According to p. 266 of YS, 5 shifts is sufficient to create an aspect that lasts all day. So if each aspect created takes 3 shifts on top of that, you could get 6 aspects for a total of 23 shifts. The character in question had a lore of 4 with a specialization stunt, giving him 6 shifts to begin with and a deficit of 17. That is considerable, but with an arcane library of significant power (he had), 3 player character spellcaster friends who can participate in the ritual, an arcane sanctum geared specifically toward rituals and built in a location that channels such magic, access to a legendary resources roll and contacts rolls, another friend whose character specifically focuses in making and selling arcane ritual components, that is 18 shifts (9 taggable aspects set up every morning by the whole party). He could do it. So the distinction becomes, for my group, important.
Other groups may have different needs, or may be fine with the wizard letting go and nuking everything like that, but my group ruled differently. I just wanted to share my experience and the ruling that made sense for my group in case others were interested.
Oh, and my group considers declarations and assessments to be actions, just free actions. So it still holds in our group that aspects are created or discovered only through actions, and only taggable if they are discovered in the current scene. Again, YMMV.
EDIT: I see where our math differs now. We only apply duration shifts once per spell, not on each part of the spell separately. Are we doing that incorrectly? I admit my mastery of the thaumaturgy rules is . . . nonexistent :P.
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My math works out a bit differently. According to p. 266 of YS, 5 shifts is sufficient to create an aspect that lasts all day.
Not quite...the quote states "So a curse that acts as a maneuver to put Bad Luck on a target might start from 15 minutes...and you could make it last all day by adding five shifts..." So it's 3 for the aspect plus 5 for duration equals 8. Finally, each aspect lasts one scene / 15 minutes. Each needs to have duration extended separately.
Edit: The cost of maneuver created aspects (without duration) is earlier on YS264-5.
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Yeah, I understand that, and my example used the appropriate math. Admittedly my wording was imprecise. Where does it say you have to extend the duration of each aspect independently?
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Yeah, I understand that, and my example used the appropriate math. Admittedly my wording was imprecise. Where does it say you have to extend the duration of each aspect independently?
Honestly hadn't considered them as a single unit - each aspect is a separate attribute to me. If you can't invoke multiple aspects with a single fate point, it doesn't make sense to extend multiple aspects with a single shift of power. Not sure that's explicitly addressed in the text though...
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Well thanks for the feedback, and I'll stop derailing this thread now. Might start up a new one to pow-wow about the duration thing, though.
Feel like I should contribute to the actual subject of the thread before I go, so I'll throw out a possibility that may be shot down by those with more knowledge of the rules. ;) You could model the magic sword like a potion, i.e. one use per session with an effect that lasts for about a scene. In your case you could activate the magic sword and gain access to a supernatural ability whose cost is less than your lore; inhuman speed or strength sound like good options. You could use multiple potion slots to get multiple uses per session.
I don't think there are any written example potions that work like that, so the effect certainly requires the approval of your table. Maybe other posters could give the idea a once over and determine how to make it balanced.
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I don't think i would play it that way myself, the sword being a sword for a scene is more beneficial than one extra use of the aspect per session, but your mileage may vary
The major benefit you get from adding a Maneuver-Enchantment to the sword is that fact that you get a free tag on the newly created aspect.
If you create the aspect once and then have it last for the whole scene, you only get one free tag. Any subsequent use would have to be paid for in fate points.
If you go with the fragile aspect you can create and tag it as often as you have uses on the enchantment resulting in more free tags.
The more free tags, the greater the benefit.
But like you say, mileage may vary.
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There is a section of the book which encourages FATE-point-light casters to use multiple copies of the same Maneuver, but it does not specify each had to be treated as a separate spell for purposes of duration. My read on Thaumaturgy is that you package up the shifts of effect and THEN start adding shifts for duration. That said, to make each Aspect "sticky" you still need to add a shift: I think that is in keeping with the rules.
If we were to charge shifts to add duration for each element of a ritual, that ritual could become ridiculously difficult to counterspell or undo. Though that could be an advantage for a warlock looking to make a spell or ritual harder to counter: that is an interesting and potentially drama-worthy element.
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Something else I've been thinking about lately is that the concept behind a free tag is that your character has discovered (or created) an aspect and as the only one adjusted to the change in circumstances gets a temporary advantage. This may or may not apply to the wizard boosting ritual, limiting the amount of free tags he might receive from the spell. Consider that the first time the wizard busts into a conflict and is "Surprisingly Fast" or similar he would definitely get that temporary advantage as his opponents are not expecting this. However if he does this every day for an extended period of time it's likely to stop surprising the enemy as word gets around that the character uses his magic to achieve supernatural speeds.
Of course this is all just my read on a situation and I'm not certain that it's something that even should be represented mechanically. An aspect should be an aspect every time, or it becomes a little unstable as players search for "more effective" aspects. Likely if I had a player who used said ritual daily after a point I would tell him that at this point the aspect is not really appropriate for what he wants and that he should really just pick up Inhuman Speed, with the excuse being that he has focused his magic on creating this power in himself.
Anyway, I'll stop rambling. I just remember this kind of daily wizard boosting ritual being discussed some time ago and I've found I've developed a few more thoughts on the subject since.
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Something else I've been thinking about lately is that the concept behind a free tag is that your character has discovered (or created) an aspect and as the only one adjusted to the change in circumstances gets a temporary advantage. This may or may not apply to the wizard boosting ritual, limiting the amount of free tags he might receive from the spell. Consider that the first time the wizard busts into a conflict and is "Surprisingly Fast" or similar he would definitely get that temporary advantage as his opponents are not expecting this.
More importantly, an Aspect is tagged - free or otherwise - when it becomes important to the story, in a metagame manner, not simply a tactical manner.
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I don't think that a tag is something that a character does. It's something that a player does. So in some unusual cases, a character could benefit from a tag on an aspect that he is not aware of.
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Of course now that I'm looking for it I have no idea where I got that idea, but I know I read it within the past week...