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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Radijs on July 16, 2011, 08:32:22 PM
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Hey folks, I'm pondering a character who's specific flavor of magic involves calling on to all sorts of nasties to do his fighting for him.
From calling swarms of bats, insects or a larger animal or two to eat the people who he doesn't like.
And who can do it at the speed of evocation.
Would anyone have a good idea to make something like this suitable for a player character?
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If you'd want actual animals to come, you'd have to somehow send out a luring call, compelling them to come to your side and obey you. This might work very well with, for example, bats during the evening/night, but you don't always have a couple of tigers in the neighbourhood. (Though, around Houston, you'd have a lot more chance of that!)
The trouble is that whatever you summon, it needs a guiding intellect/instinct and that makes it a lot harder than just calling up some ectoplasm in a specific form. Now, I haven't been on here long, so something like this might have been suggested before, but what if your character carries some kind of item around (Focus/Enchant/IoP) which holds the actual spirit of an animal in it? (Or more items for more animals) You'd use Evocation to conjure and shape ectoplasm into the desired shape and the spirit temporarily leaves the item to ensoul the construct you made.
Of course, the trouble is, how do you get animals' spirits/souls to willingly do that?
Or you could take another route and have some form of companion spirit(s), not unlike Bob, who inhabits the construct(s). I think that allows you to do away with a lot of complexity for summoning not just the animal form, but its instincts. You just provide a husk, which you hold together long enough for the spirit to enter and the spirit's power keeps it together and allows it to function. That way, by saying the spirit knows how to mold the ectoplasm into the right shape, you also avoid the difficulties of biomancy, relating to the incredibly complicated anatomy of all things living.
This is just something that sprang to mind, so how would others think it holds up?
(Coincindentally, you could make a Poké-Trainer, who keeps the animals' spirits in Poké-balls and releases them together with a surge of ectoplastic energy, stored in the very same item :))
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Homemade summoning rules:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.45.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.45.html)
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Would anyone have a good idea to make something like this suitable for a player character?
The simplest method is to change the trappings (and possibly the elements) on evocation / channeling. An attack spell might call a striking hawk out of the sky, a maneuver might have worms crawling up out of the ground under your victims feet giving him unstable footing, etc. The elements used might be Birds, Reptiles, Mammals, Fish, and Arthropods instead of the standard Greek elements.
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Hehe, ok.. I had a huge spiel I was gonna go on, but I decided against it. Just didn't have the time or ability to put it into the a way I'd like to.
Now, this is basically the quick, dirty and easy version of what I originally wrote.
First, what you want to do is both lawbreaking and skirting a few of the laws in some very dark-gray areas.
Now, since this seems a more "dark" use of magic, I'd think an appropriate magical sponsorship would be Kemmlerian Necromancy. It has psychomantic spell effects within its thaum at the speed of evocation list, and just fits with the dark aspect kinda thing you have going on. Of course, you could try to go about it another way, but that would probably be a good starting point.
I'll comment more later, but this is all I can really do for now, hehe.. Hope it helped at least a little bit :P
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I'll comment more later, but this is all I can really do for now, hehe.. Hope it helped at least a little bit :P
Well you certainly added to the mystery! ;)
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Lawbreaker?
How so?
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Lawbreaker?
How so?
I think he's hinting at some form of necromancy, either animating dead animals, or something to do with human souls... But still... Mystery...
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Binding summoned creatures is way too high-Complexity to be really feasible this way (even if you get "summoning/binding at the speed of evocation" through sponsored magic).
However... Justin's "chain of electric eels" spell (shown in a flashback in Welcome to the Jungle & mentioned in his writeup in OW) is *mechanically* just a Spirit Evocation, but *fluff-wise* it conjures (presumably ectoplasmic) flying electric eels to attack. So you could do something like that...
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I would assume something you are quick summoning you have already bound (a loyal familiar would be bound to you already) and so you would only need their discipline + 4 to summon them which is doable as you don't need to bother with the binding or ward.
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Lawbreaker?
How so?
Well, first and foremost, if you are commanding said creatures to kill something, they would then be considered your weapon in the matter. If you kill said target with your weapon, then obviously, you have their blood on your hands. Since your weapon was brought to bear with magic, it is now considered a lawbreaker action.
It has been already stated in the novels and the books, for that matter, if you summon a big bad demon and have it kill people, you will be getting the lawbreaker stunt from it. It is just an extension of your magic, and you are now using it to kill people.
Second, if you are controlling said creatures to attack people for you, you would then be getting into grey territory of the 3rd and/ or 4th laws. Some more open minded wizards may look the other way, but I know at least a few hard line Wardens that would have a bone to pick with you about it.
The other big thing is once you start using such mind control magic over creatures, why would you continue to use it only on such simple creatures? Why NOT just bend the will of the pathetic individual your getting into an argument with? Why not simple shatter his mind? The setting shows that black magic is black because of its tainting nature, not the simple fact that it breaks a law. Every action corrupts you in some way, making you into a person who will break that law again and again, because you are good at it, and it gets just so easy. Its truly addicting. The downward spiral to upgrading from animals to people would not only be easy, but it would be highly likely.
Now, another thing to mention. Unless you use a very gentle form of control, pushing the creature to be more likely to perform your desired action rather than forcing it to attack, there will most likely be a rather nasty sequence of events that follow. Using such an overt form of magic on the mind of a feral creature for instance. Strong magic that is used to control minds always ends up leaving some psychic scars. The result on a simple creature's mind would likely destroy it, unless proper care was given. Even if it was, the damage would still be done. Since the action taken against their mind was to be pushed towards an act of violence, the creature's mental state would leave them violent. They would seem like they were rabid, or overly aggressive, abused. The creature would most likely fall deeper into this kind of madness until its action's destroyed itself. If your find with the destruction and degeneration caused by your actions, then that's one thing.
But, leaving a wake of such creatures would be a very EASY trail to follow. Number of animal attacks increased, with little to no sign of rabies. Not to mention the very BIZARRE attacks, like a swarm of bats or rats. Overall, unless you travel a lot, using such a technique in your home frequently would be very reckless and dangerous to yourself. It would be like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for the wardens, saying "I'm here, come chop off my head please!"
Now, for the actual summoning. This for the most part will be very difficult. Controlling a critter once its arrived isn't too hard. If you do it frequently you'll have practice, and will know what your doing and how to do it, obviously. But summoning for the most part doesn't work like an APB calling all Dogs, Calling all Dogs. Its normally much more personal, and individual. If you had the fur, or blood of a neighborhood dog, then that would be simple enough. Using that direct link, you could put a compelling notion in the animals head that it wants to come to you. But a similar effect to just any animal that fits the bill and is nearby just doesn't really work. There would be no way to truly compel on that scale, its just not how it works. The best I can think up, would be something more along the lines of creating a compelling reason for your desired creature to show up. For rats, maybe a strong sense of rotting, decaying food. It would probably also leave a horrific sent nearby. For dogs or wolves, maybe somehow creating a very powerful sense of a bitch in heat. This is a little awkward, and i'm not sure how you'd go about doing it, but it would at least present the possibility of working.
I personally think the best you could do would present a compelling reason for them to come, but you could not really Compel them to come, if you know what I mean, hehe..
EDIT: Just realized i didn't put a finisher on this, and also kinda thought of something else that could be done :P
Now, I think I though of a way you could maybe call some critters towards you. This actually kinda opens up a can of worms that I wouldn't like at my table, but might be helpful for you to work off of.
Rather than using a true summoning, which i'm pretty sure just flat out won't work.. I think using a form of mental control, psychomancy might. The same form of magic you'll use to control them, could be used on a much wider range to try to place a compel within the target creature type to come to you or to the area you are at. Now while this might work, the complexity would be another problem. The targeting of a very specific creature type might also pose challenge, but I don't think it should be that big of a deal. And while it may only truly effect the animals you are calling, I think the "call" might be felt by other animals, making them seem uneasy. Humans may even be able to feel it, but it would probably only amount to a small sense of fear or dread. An un-explainable feeling.
But the big reason I don't like this, is the simple fact that it could be brought to bear against humans, and just get horrible after that. While now that I think about it, mechanically, it seems very possible, I just don't like it... It also reminds me of certain events in one of the novels that involved a lot of people be Fuuuuuuuuuu'd and ... Hmm.. I think a fear eating WCV, but i can't remember, hehe...
Now, I know this is pretty much just a nasty wall of text, and I apologize. I haven't been able to write very well for a while now. Just having a problem articulating >.< Anyway, hope this helps a little bit, and answers a few questions. Hope i didn't dissapoint too much Masurao, haha...
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<insert magic type here> would then be considered your weapon in the matter. If you kill said target with your weapon, then obviously, you have their blood on your hands. Since your weapon was brought to bear with magic, it is now considered a lawbreaker action.
This applies equally to every type of mortal evocation and thaumaturgy. So hardly seems a valid argument.
Same goes for most (if not all) of your listed lawbreaker arguments. Victim and intent always matter.
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This applies equally to every type of mortal evocation and thaumaturgy. So hardly seems a valid argument.
Same goes for most (if not all) of your listed lawbreaker arguments. Victim and intent always matter.
I'm slightly confused... Must be I'm still rubbing sleep out of my eyes.
Are you arguing that I have crappy examples, or that I'm wrong?
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Are you arguing that I have crappy examples, or that I'm wrong?
To reiterate, it's an invalid argument.
Your wall of text appears to boil down to "don't allow X because it might break one or more Laws". I'm simply pointing out the same argument applies to any purely mortal evocation or thaumaturgy. They may be used to break one or more Laws. Unless you're disallowing all such mortal magic, the entire argument is invalid.
Have I misunderstood your wall of text? Were you not arguing against allowing animal summoning because it might be lawbreaking?
That said, I do think we're straying from helping the OP come up with a system for his desired magical trappings.
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Don't think that this is Lawbreaking. The Laws don't protect animals, and this kind of magic can be used for things other than killing.
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Don't think that this is Lawbreaking. The Laws don't protect animals, and this kind of magic can be used for things other than killing.
Just to see if I got the gist of this: if you'd use Spirit magic to tip a boulder over an edge, cause an avalanche, flatten a village, would it be like this? Would it be Lawbreaking? Or is this where intent comes in? An accidental or intentional makes the difference?
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Don't think that this is Lawbreaking. The Laws don't protect animals, and this kind of magic can be used for things other than killing.
If you mean it's no more law breaking than any other mortal evocation or thaumaturgy, I agree. Much of the lawbreaking specifics depend on intent and situation. :)
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To reiterate, it's an invalid argument.
Your wall of text appears to boil down to "don't allow X because it might break one or more Laws". I'm simply pointing out the same argument applies to any purely mortal evocation or thaumaturgy. They may be used to break one or more Laws. Unless you're disallowing all such mortal magic, the entire argument is invalid.
Have I misunderstood your wall of text? Were you not arguing against allowing animal summoning because it might be lawbreaking?
That said, I do think we're straying from helping the OP come up with a system for his desired magical trappings.
Ok, hehe I understand what you are saying now. I wasn't meaning to say "No, this is a bad idea, don't do it", I was just making sure he knew the full consequences of the actions he was intending on performing. Letting him know the laws that may be broken, the gray areas that are stepped into, and all the negative side effects with animals that have their mind's f'd with.
Sanctaphrax, yes technically it won't be true lawbreaking when he forces the animals to do his bidding. It his however a gray area, in that you are practicing a forbidden form of magic to begin with. It would make a lot of people uncomfortable, even if you only did specialize in animals. Honestly, when I start on this particular subject, I immediately begin thinking on the stereotypical serial killer. A lot of them start off by torturing and killing small animals, before they eventually move on to people. Its already in his nature. If he is a person that would break the will of another living creature, then what is to stop him from just moving on to higher life forms?
And yeah, there are a lot of other things he could use this kind of magic for, but he didn't really show a lot of fluffy bunny, tree hugging intent with it.
The big question I have for the OP, is what is the rest of the character concept? When I first heard it, my first thought went towards DnD Vampires, and their ability to control "creatures of the night" and such. Is the concept a darker kind of character? Or is it a kind of druidic concept, with the character being far more in touch with nature. Both of these kind of ideas could work, and obviously there could be a lot more. Each one would work very differently though, so I don't think I'll go into any mechanic ideas till I reread over some stuff, and get a response.
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@Masurao: It's all very ambigous. I don't have a definitive answer for you.
@UmbraLux: Yes, that is what I mean.
@jybil178: Point taken.
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I'd do it as evocation with a different effect flavor.
If you want to have animals and such on call, then use thamatergy to create a stack of aspects of "Rats waiting to help" and such, and either toss them on top of skills to do things, or on top of evocation effects.
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The big question I have for the OP, is what is the rest of the character concept? When I first heard it, my first thought went towards DnD Vampires, and their ability to control "creatures of the night" and such. Is the concept a darker kind of character? Or is it a kind of druidic concept, with the character being far more in touch with nature. Both of these kind of ideas could work, and obviously there could be a lot more. Each one would work very differently though, so I don't think I'll go into any mechanic ideas till I reread over some stuff, and get a response.
Well it was for several potential concepts. Varying from the vampire idea, calling bats, wolves and other nasties.
Other ideas I toyed with where mages who'd make some kind of temporary elemental constructs out of elemental power. Ice beasts and the like.
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I believe the power "Greater Glamours" allows you to effectively summon a creature to do your bidding. It's an ectoplasmic construct, rather than an actual creature, and you can only summon one, but it's a precedent in the rules allowing that sort of thing, and might be a basis from which you could develop something more comprehensive.