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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JediDresden on July 11, 2011, 11:53:30 PM
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I need help/ suggestions for a wizard character who does everything he can not to spend Fate Points. We have all tried to convince him that they are currency and met to be spent, but he will not spend them. the group is great at making asspects available for others to tag for free and he will always use these, but he will not spend points to use his aspects. How can I get him to see the light as far as Fate Points go?
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You could ask him what he's saving for.
Otherwise the only reason not to save fate points is one's own benefit. If he wants to save them it shouldn't really be adversely effecting everyone else, so there's no real reason to dissuade him.
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Big question is, what is he saving for? What does he consider a bad enough situation to be worth spending points to get himself out of?
I've dealt with a player sort of like this, in a D&D game. She refused to use abilities that were 1 use per day or 1 use per fight about 75% of the time. She kept insisting she was saving them for when things got bad enough. Eventually, the group realized she just wasn't paying that much attention to combat and was a bit paranoid, so we just left her alone.
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Tell him that he's supposed to spend them, then proceed with the game as normal. If he catches on, great. If not, oh well; the only thing he's hurting is himself. The people who are blowing through tons of fate points are going to have a good time regardless of whether someone at the table isn't.
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Some people are just pack rats or like to have a ton of FPs in reserve as insurance. Once they hit their comfort zone, they are more likely to spend those FPs. The key is allowing them to get to that comfort zone. A guy I know who is also playing a wizard is comfortable with having 6-7 FPs at any time although he only has a net Refresh of 1. His reasoning is that he is only likely to invoke 3 of his Aspects at any one go, so he has 1 full power hadouken ready to go and 1 more for backup, the 7th FP is used to buy off a Compel.
There seems to be a fundamental difference in thinking - some guys look at money and the thing that comes to mind is "Spend!", other people look at money and they think "Save!" One is not necessarily better than the other.
@TheMouse: Must someone blow through a ton of FPs to have a good time? Is DFRPG written such that it is so?
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Maybe he's trying to save up enough points to kill GOD...
;D
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@TheMouse: Must someone blow through a ton of FPs to have a good time? Is DFRPG written such that it is so?
It's not absolutely necessary, but I find that players have the best time when there is a constant two-way flow of fate points. There is a tendency to suffer a bit at the beginning so that you have the mojo to spend on the real problems, but my players seem to best enjoy scenes where they both spend and earn fate points. Those scenes are the most dynamic, highlighting both the good and the bad about the PCs.
If a player insists on hording fate points, there isn't that flow. Instead, their character will tend to suffer a bit without having those moments of excellence. One would assume that the fate points would tend to go mostly during "boss fight" type situations. So if the hoarder spends nothing until the boss fight, their character will be sort of bland, then explode during one scene.
It's not terrible that way. It's just that you'll tend to be sort of meh for the bulk of the game if you insist on spending no fate points.
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Maybe he just isn't spending FP because he hasn't felt the need.
A few nasty compels that he might really want to refuse could help with that. As could throwing very damaging attacks at him.
By the way, how many FP does he have right now?
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He has 4-5 right now, which is not bad, but he slows the game down trying to figure out how to do it with out spending them - or he solicite help from others to place aspect on the target that he can tag for free. Everyone else is catching on to using them so I reward them with more compels,but I have not gone out of my way to compel him a lot because he would end up with 10-15 and not spend them. He has done the same thing with actiion point or Force points from any other game we have played. He just will not spend them.
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He has 4-5 right now, which is not bad, but he slows the game down trying to figure out how to do it with out spending them - or he solicite help from others to place aspect on the target that he can tag for free.
If he's slowing things down/making others do his dirty work (and it's irritating or bad for the table) then just stop pandering to him. It's up to the person who makes the aspect as to whether they pass the tag on or not. If they stop giving him their tags then he won't have that option and the next time he stops the game to ask "How do I make this roll?" you tell him "You spend a fate point or you don't."
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If he's slowing things down/making others do his dirty work (and it's irritating or bad for the table) then just stop pandering to him.
Only if the other players feel that it is irritating or bad. Is it a complaint that is shared by others? It is not as if the tag makes the roll automatically successful, he could still make the roll on his own.
He has done the same thing with actiion point or Force points from any other game we have played. He just will not spend them.
With respect to Force points, did he have any way of reloading those Force points? When we played Star Wars, we all hoarded our Force points until we were in spitting distance of levelling up. Or are you talking about the old Force points/new Destiny points? Those we all were miserly with them too. They weren't renewable resources.
Fate points are semi-renewable resources. They refresh each session. But if you want to start with more than your net Refresh, then hoarding is one way to go.
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Or you could send in a soul-sucking monster, who mechanically eats Fate points >:0D Or am I too evil a GM now?
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Awesome. I think you're wrong not to compel him. If he loves fate points so much, he'll probably take your compels. Hit him often and hard. If he buys them off, problem solved. If he accepts, you get to complicate his life and maybe he'll get enough that he finally starts to spend em. If not, they're basically a non-issue
If you don't compel him, he will think they are a scarce resource and hoard them more.
Also, in your next conflict, hit him so hard that you take him out if he doesn't spend his FP. He's got the resources. He can handle it.
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Fate-point or Force-point hoarding isn't really a bad thing.
For example, my Sith (and Jedi) characters tend to have both Force Flow and Fringe Savant (get a free FP on a 1 or on a 20) and they tend to roll Use the Force at least 3-4 times per round so they can hoard up on Force Points mid-fight they can then use on various Talents.
Similarly, my Dresden Files characters tend to save Fate Points for big spells as a matter of principle. Nothing scares the opposition more than kicking their leutenants beyond the Outer Gates with a big banishment spell and even if it means less success and more complications during the more mundane scenes, that's how DF stories usually go; Harry is kicked around all book long but in the end he kicks @$$ of things way beyond what should be possible for him.
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If talking to him and explaining the way fate points work doesn't help, I'd say compel him. Escalate those compels. Make it hurt.
The thing is, in the DFRPG, the only real difference between PC and NPC is fate points. If he is not using his, he might as well be an NPC, and as such he is driven by his nature, not by his choice. See if you can get him to behave according to the nature of the character, when the player actually wants to do something very different, so if he wants to do it, he will at least have to buy out of the compel. This might break the ice for future uses.
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IMO it depends on how its affecting the rest of the table. If no one has a problem with it, then I'd just let it go (but be prepared for one massive FP expenditure at some point). If it is a problem for the rest of the table, then it needs to be worked out someway just as if he had some other behaviour that was negatively impacting the enjoyment of the group.
Or you could simply declare a reset to base Refresh in between "case files" which may not be the way the game plays but works perfectly in keeping with the feel of the books. Lots of give and take and building during the case and then the next one...back to square one.
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I agree with what many people have said: Compel, Compel, Compel.
Compels are supposed to complicate a characters life. If he's accepted enough compels that he has 10-15 FP's then he's probably gone through some hell to earn all those. If not, then they weren't very good compels.
In combat, have someone kick dirt in his face(blinded maneuver) and compel him to be unable to target enemies.
Story compels should have some lasting effects. His Master told him not to go in his lab, but maybe he has a "curious" aspect. Compel it and the consequenses will make for a good story which may lead to MORE compels...
If they're bad (or good) enough compels, he may pay them off and, if not, it will make things more interesting.
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Do the other players have an issue with his hoarding? If one of the ways he is saving his fate points is by tagging aspects that others have created or discovered for free then he is also basically taking fate points away from them. I always like to have player created aspects on the table free for anyone to tag, but there is the rule that whoever created or discovered the aspect has the right of first refusal if someone else wants to tag it for the free first time.
Have the other players stop letting him get all those free tags on their aspects on the table. Though it really seems like a unsuitably punitive measure, but he really is messing with the game economy and the other players resources if he does all that free tagging of their aspects.
If you and everyone else have already tried talking to him about his hoarding, what is his response or reasons for his hoarding behavior?
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Do the other players have an issue with his hoarding? If one of the ways he is saving his fate points is by tagging aspects that others have created or discovered for free then he is also basically taking fate points away from them.
Have the other players stop letting him get all those free tags on their aspects on the table.
First of all, the other players have to have an issue with his tagging the aspects they created. Not "I am the GM and I think you should have a problem with his tagging your aspects" but a genuine "I have a problem with his tagging my aspects". One of the ways DFRPG encourages player cooperation is creating Aspects for others to tag, forcibly stopping free tags on other people's created aspects would be negating the whole point of such characters.
On the Compel issue, I am not sure if this would be a good idea, without knowing what Aspects the character has.
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After much deliberation I have decided to post my thoughts on this. I tend to be a little extreme and blunt so do take a bag of salt with this opinion.
In a recent campaign one PC had hoarded 20 fate points due to a lack of understanding how they work. I had hoarded 16 due to lots of compels and a smidge of hoarding. I honestly feel naked if I have less than 4 FP at a given time. That's my comfort zone...though I have been known to be a very defense minded player. I've also spent down to 0 and accrued sponsor debt.
4-5 fate points is not an issue in my mind at all to have hoarded.
I honestly feel having a short sit down with the other players to see how they feel about his behavior, then one with him is a wise course of action. I also feel compelling him would help a lot. Teach him it is a renewable resource.
if nothing works, do not cater to his need to have others create free tags unless it is in sync with the actions players or NPC's had in mind anyhow. Some people have to learn the hard way.
Do not however, if it isn't hurting anything, (which the simple act of hoarding is not ; at least not in my opinion) simply leave him be...it's a non issue.
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I'm not sure I agree that a 4-5 Fate reserve qualifies as 'hoarding'. To my mind, Dresden probably accumulated at least that many to throw into the big fights. On the other hand, 20? Ok, that seems a bit excessive.
But in any case, if you are giving out Fate points reasonably, then he is paying for that Fate in terms of complications -- so I don't see it being too horrible a thing. What's the worst case scenario? Well, he spends them. Isn't that what they are for? And even that is limited by the need to have enough applicable aspects to channel them.
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He might change his tune if he sees other characters doing awesome stuff and outshining him through liberal expenditure of Fate Points. Or, possibly, this is just how he has fun, and his character gets to be the one that's always totally safe due to having tons of FP to blow on fallback defense invocations.
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his character gets to be the one that's always totally safe
Well, except that, in order to be accumulating these FPs, he's having to accept compels that expose him to danger...
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One additional question: is he creating aspects himself? Fate is a little irritating, because maneuvers don't really do anything at first, and maybe your player needs to get comfortable with that mechanic first. Maybe do a short scene where he is the only player involved. He can create aspects to tag and save his fate points, but usually there is not enough time, so he might have to use a shortcut, and that is where the fate points come in. And even if he can do without fate points, he will have seen the power of maneuvers.
If he is a wizard, is he the last to get his action in an exchange? If that is the case, the others will probably always have done some maneuvers and declarations, and he has got a buffet of aspects to choose from, so he won't really need any fate points or maneuvers anyway.
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Well, except that, in order to be accumulating these FPs, he's having to accept compels that expose him to danger...
It depends on how the FPs are given out at the table. For example, if the GM decides to start the game with a murder being committed, and the GM ties that to several Aspects of the PCs as Compel to get them to investigate (IIRC, there is an example along these lines in YS)
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I think that trying to convince your player to not hoard fate points by making vicious compels is the completely wrong thing to do, since what that shows is that you always need some fate points in the bank to resist them. I mean, if you are using fate points 'like you are supposed to' and don't have any more when, "Now, eat these kittens!" comes along, how are you going to feel about the GM?
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I don't think that anyone is suggesting "vicious" compels, just interesting ones. But compels with no teeth aren't very interesting. Giving someone a FP to get an adventure going is fine but, in general, they should complicate things somewhat.
And yes, I gave an example of blinding, which I guess, can be a vicious compel depending on the situation, but I was just trying to give a combat example that might not be AUTOMATICALLY accepted.
I do have to agree that 4 or 5 FP's isn't overly much
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Compels: yes.
Viscious Compels: No...I'd say only use those rarely per player anyhow.
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"If you strike me down now, I shall accumulate more fate points than you can possibly imagine"
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I think that trying to convince your player to not hoard fate points by making vicious compels is the completely wrong thing to do, since what that shows is that you always need some fate points in the bank to resist them. I mean, if you are using fate points 'like you are supposed to' and don't have any more when, "Now, eat these kittens!" comes along, how are you going to feel about the GM?
Yeah. This.
Don't target the dude for accumulating fate points. That'll just prove to him that he needs to do it, thus encouraging the behaviour.
Now, I don't seriously suggest doing anything like counting up Compels for each player and making sure that they match. But you should try to treat all your players about the same in that regard.
Keeping piles of fate points isn't a problem unless you make it a problem. Targeting him makes it a problem. If he feels that he needs a safety net, let him have his net. He'll either grow comfortable without having a net, or he won't. Don't poke and prod him.
If for some reason you feel that it's a real problem, talk to him. There's no reason to ever attempt to solve out of game problems by doing stuff in game. All that does is piss people off.
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So, here's the thing:
Fate points aren't a finite resource. His hoarding doesn't matter. It doesn't hurt the party or the rest of the table. If he is trying to force players to assist his character, there's an easy way to stop that. The player, if they have a problem with it, can say no. Problem solved. If you need it solved a different way, give him less time and thus less of an opportunity to set things up like that.
Hoarding isn't a big deal. You are limited by the number of aspects available to you, so you can't (normally) spend 20 fate points in one go.
You don't have to be vicious with your compels, but treat the player like you would any other. Compel as much as you want/need to for the story. Complicate the character's life (as you should the others too), and throw challenges at them. Eventually, the fate points will get spent. If they don't, he's simply handicapping himself. That's okay too.
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I can only speak for myself, but I'd feel as though the game was too easy if I was able to go around with a FP cushion all the time. I'd want to be pushed down to my last Fate Point.
Hence my advice.
If the player in question doesn't like to be challenged so heavily, then you should probably ignore me.
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I think that trying to convince your player to not hoard fate points by making vicious compels is the completely wrong thing to do, since what that shows is that you always need some fate points in the bank to resist them. I mean, if you are using fate points 'like you are supposed to' and don't have any more when, "Now, eat these kittens!" comes along, how are you going to feel about the GM?
You may be right. It brings to mind a question about what compels have been like so far, and if the player feels he has to protect himself from the GM. I much prefer compels where I'm torn between accepting them or buying them off because the compel represents a juicy new direction to take the character, but at the cost of whatever I was attempting at the time. I don't care for compels that are just ways to block me. I might hoard fate to protect myself from something like that (not saying this is the case here)
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I can only speak for myself, but I'd feel as though the game was too easy if I was able to go around with a FP cushion all the time. I'd want to be pushed down to my last Fate Point.
Different people like different things. You like being down to your last FP. He obviously doesn't. Taking advice that would work for you and applying it to him could be disastrous.
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Hoarding isn't a big deal. You are limited by the number of aspects available to you, so you can't (normally) spend 20 fate points in one go.
Actually you can, it's just less efficient. You can spend a fate point to simply give a +1, no aspect required.
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I dunno about "obviously".
I could see myself acting like that guy. FP are precious when you're playing in challenge mode, and you try to avoid spending them until you need them. So I could end up hoarding despite my theoretical dislike for it.
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I could see myself acting like that guy. FP are precious when you're playing in challenge mode, and you try to avoid spending them until you need them. So I could end up hoarding despite my theoretical dislike for it.
Would you like your GM to use the advice you have given when you are playing in challenge mode and you are trying to avoid spending FPs until you need to? Would it be fun for you?
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Yes.
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Yes.
A few nasty compels that he might really want to refuse could help with that. As could throwing very damaging attacks at him.
Since you find this sort of thing fun, I hope your GM does so then.
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I've read through this thread a couple of times and I'm still not actually sure what the problem is. It looks to me like the person running the game is having some uncomfortable emotional reactions - but that in terms of what's going on in the game, things are okay. Maybe not great, but okay.
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I've read through this thread a couple of times and I'm still not actually sure what the problem is. It looks to me like the person running the game is having some uncomfortable emotional reactions - but that in terms of what's going on in the game, things are okay. Maybe not great, but okay.
It sounds like everyone else is working as a team, setting each other up, but this guy's just a Tag Sponge:
The group is great at making asspects available for others to tag for free and he will always use these, but he will not spend points to use his aspects.
He's a taker, not a giver. THAT I can see being a problem. If the other players are trying to set him up to through the big whammy, fine... but I suspect that isn't the case.
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I'll say this- a player who doesn't use his aspects isn't really playing fate... the thing I fell in love with about fate was the fact that your actual character- your persona and not just your stats- make it onto your character sheet in a meaningful way... that story affects mechanics as much, in fact, more than the other way around.
That, and the statement about him spending time trying to talk other players into setting up aspects for him to tag... costs them their FP or turns to do, and benefits him. Sounds like he's trying to relegate them to support staff, and that's also not OK. If every combat works out to them feeding him tags, then it gets boring fast- all of the sudden, it's not a game your other players need to show up to- it's this guy's show.
So talk to your other players, and make sure they don't let him force them into support roles- make sure they know they don't have to do what he asks when they could just as easily shine on their own. Teamwork is great, but it needs to go both ways to really work. Let them know they don't have to play along with him if they don't want to, they can take the free tags if it benefits them, and they can handle your conflicts without resorting to his chosen strategy. IE... let him hang in the breeze a bit, without free tags, and see if he starts spending him. If he does, problem solved, move on.
4-5 FP isn't bad by any means, unless the only reason it's that few is because you haven't been compelling him as often as the other players (which means you aren't using his aspects, see point 1). Other things make him sound like a hoarder, the number doesn't. Compel him more or less as much as you do them, and see how bad it gets.
If he starts stacking up to double-digits... and he's still not spending, then you have a serious problem, and one easily fixed. Keep doing what you're doing, and simply put a cap on how many FP's can be carried over from one session to the next (say, 5 or your refresh, whichever is more), on the premise that during down-times, your character ends up using them off-screen for other stuff (remember- these stories aren't their whole lives- just the highlights... Dresden has plenty of work... we only get told about the interesting Side Jobs and big case files). He may complain and tell you his character doesn't, but just tell him to deal.
This isn't unreasonable IMO (I'd certainly have a problem with one of my characters carrying 20 refresh from the end of one campaign to the next, when they're separated by half a year or more), and as a house rule that affects everyone, isn't strictly imbalanced. Once he figures out that if he doesn't spend them, he wastes them... he'll start spending them.
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Not to be a downer, but I think that this discussion ended over a month ago.
So ARedthorn's (good) advice is probably wasted.
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Thread Necromancy!
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As the OP, I really was just wondering if I should be concerned with him having that many FP, and how I can encourage him to spend them. I think he is just comfortable having that much as a 'cushion'. Anyway I just decided to let the FP flow and when he gets enough he will spend them and if he does not then he is missing out on the fun of Fate, no one else seems worried about it - just something I noticed with the group dymamic.
Thanks for the ideas and views, I appreciate them.
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I'll say this- a player who doesn't use his aspects isn't really playing fate... the thing I fell in love with about fate was the fact that your actual character- your persona and not just your stats- make it onto your character sheet in a meaningful way... that story affects mechanics as much, in fact, more than the other way around.
Quite so! I mean, how sucky is it that with a Strength of 20+ you still don't have much say over what you are really good at or not (other than being a mule). With FATE, you can create a cool aspect and use it whenever you get the chance.
I've seen a lot of systems, but I honestly think that FATE gives the most flexibility to players. White Wolf has Willpower to spend, Legend of the Five Rings has Void Points, Star Wars uses Force Points, D20 Modern Action Points, but none allow the players to create aspects on scenes like FATE! Yay, FATE! :D