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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 11:46:51 AM

Title: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 11:46:51 AM
I think the game text's concentration on Winter and Summer courts obscures the sheer number and complexity of fae courts and their politics.  The fiction has shown us at least five courts (so far) all of which have a generally western origin.  I tend to think there are a lot more.

How many different courts have you used in game play?  Have you created any based on eastern mythology?
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 12:36:35 PM
I beg your pardon? Five courts of Fae? 1) Winter, 2) Summer and...? "Billy" suggests an Autumn Court, now defunct, in YS on pg.75, so you might theorize about a Spring Court as well. But other than that, what would you count? The 'court' of the Erlking? While he himself is a major player, his court has no powers such Winter or Summer (i.e. imbalancing the weather/climate, or some such). I am really, really curious which others you are referring to! :D
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Arcane on July 07, 2011, 12:41:31 PM
Why, The Za! Court of course!  :D
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 12:55:32 PM
Quote from: Arcane on July 07, 2011, 12:41:31 PM
Why, The Za! Court of course!  :D

All hail the Za-lord! All glory to Prince Harry Dresden!
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 01:00:37 PM
Quote from: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 12:36:35 PM
I beg your pardon? Five courts of Fae? 1) Winter, 2) Summer and...? "Billy" suggests an Autumn Court, now defunct, in YS on pg.75, so you might theorize about a Spring Court as well. But other than that, what would you count?
Seven courts if you want to include Autumn and Spring, I didn't since they weren't in the fiction.  The courts mentioned in the fiction include Winter, Summer, Wyld (the Erlking),
(click to show/hide)
and
(click to show/hide)
.  All of which have at least one noble mentioned and four mention kings or queens.

Quote
The 'court' of the Erlking? While he himself is a major player, his court has no powers such Winter or Summer (i.e. imbalancing the weather/climate, or some such). I am really, really curious which others you are referring to! :D
The Erlking appears to have power over the Hunt...which is fairly significant. 
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 01:13:58 PM
Quote
Wyld (the Erlking),
(click to show/hide)
and
(click to show/hide)
.

Oh, okay, this is probably due to the fact I haven't yet read all the short stories, nor Summer Knight all too well. I, personally, wouldn't put the Erlking and his 'court' on par with Summer or Winter, simply because they haven't got the same influence on the mortal world. The Erlking himself may be on par with the Summer/Winter Queen, but his sphere of influence is far more limited.

Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 01:31:17 PM
Wasn't trying to rank them, just enumerate them.  That said, the implications around the TT might put them on par with the Summer and Winter courts. 

What I'm really interested in is how people may have used other courts...
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 01:47:10 PM
Quote from: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 01:31:17 PM
Wasn't trying to rank them, just enumerate them.  That said, the implications around the TT might put them on par with the Summer and Winter courts. 

What I'm really interested in is how people may have used other courts...

Ah, my apologies, then. The source material from the books is pretty slim, so you'd have to get onto the net to flesh out these other courts. However, I could see how in Asia, for example, "faeries" might be different, as their mythology is completely different from ours as well.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Richard_Chilton on July 07, 2011, 02:03:50 PM
The courts we've seen so far have a western European feel. 
(click to show/hide)

But I don't think all the supernatural factions can be called fairies.  I really don't think that the
(click to show/hide)
are fairies.  Remember that there are lots of things in the Nevernever and fairyland is just the closest of many inhuman realms.

Richard
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 02:08:39 PM
Just found out about the
(click to show/hide)
and I realize I really need to get up to speed considering the short stories!
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 02:25:22 PM
Since the
(click to show/hide)
I suspect there's more to them than the website states.  Thanks for the link though, I'll have to explore it when I have more time.

Shrug, like I said, I'm more interested in listing different courts than in ranking them.  Rank is less important than how important they are to a given campaign.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Blackblade on July 07, 2011, 03:34:23 PM
Which story did the
(click to show/hide)
appear in? 
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Masurao on July 07, 2011, 03:53:35 PM
Curses.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Richard_Chilton on July 07, 2011, 04:08:43 PM
Curse was published in Naked City: Tales of Urban Fantasy (July 5, 2011).

No, I haven't read it yet either.

Richard
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Tedronai on July 07, 2011, 06:11:59 PM
I'd also be hesitant to list the Erlking's Court as 'Wyld', as it seems that, though it is made up of Wyldfae, there are many, many, many more Wyldfae that are not associated with it.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Clotho19 on July 07, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Well the erlking in itself is a touch confusing, i mean one wouldn't really class him as a court of his own since according to WOJ he is a king of summer.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 07, 2011, 10:19:47 PM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on July 07, 2011, 02:03:50 PM
But I don't think all the supernatural factions can be called fairies.  I really don't think that the
(click to show/hide)
are fairies.  Remember that there are lots of things in the Nevernever and fairyland is just the closest of many inhuman realms.
Agreed except for one point.  Fae and Sidhe appear to mean different things in Dresden's world.  Using a narrow definition of fae, I'm not certain goblins, trolls, and such qualify.  They're certainly not sidhe.  However fae seems to cover a broader class of creatures.  If trolls and goblins qualify, why not
(click to show/hide)
?

Whether they do or not, the fae do seem to be far more fragmented than Your Story implies.  I prefer it that way.  It allows for more creativity in inserting new factions without contradicting cannon and it creates a field capable of extreme Byzantine politics...always good campaign fodder.  :)
-----

Given the seven courts mentioned or implied by fiction and rules, what additional courts would you add?  Any particular legends provide good fodder?  Given RC's reminder:
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on July 07, 2011, 02:03:50 PM
(click to show/hide)
I need to research Russian and Slavic myth!
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: vultur on July 11, 2011, 04:53:02 PM
The Nunne'hi from Cherokee mythology would be a good source of a non-European, local court. Their underground townhouses are extremely reminiscent of the 'fairy mounds' of European legends, so they seem a natural choice to link to Faerie. They're a bit friendlier than most fae are usually portrayed, however.

Quote from: Clotho19 on July 07, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Well the erlking in itself is a touch confusing, i mean one wouldn't really class him as a court of his own since according to WOJ he is a king of summer.

Well, he's of Summer (the season) but not of Titania's Summer Court. So it would make sense for him to have his own court.

(But I agree it's not the 'wyld court'. Santa Claus is supposed to be something like his counterpart in the Winter season, and since one of the WOJ called him "a king of summer" there may be others [Oberon, maybe?]. And there are lots of unaffiliated wyldfae, like the Little Folk (well, they were unaffiliated before they served the Za-Lord, anyway...)
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: JediDresden on July 12, 2011, 04:39:20 AM
We are planning an adventure in Hawaii and they have a rich mythology as well, they even have a mythical race of 'small people' (can't remember what their name is at the moment.  And even a ogre/troll-like race that the little people defeated before man came to the islands.  This is slim on details because I don't have the sources with me and others in the group are researching them more fully. 

We decided to forgo the traditional summer/winter courts for a local ones - like a water and earth court possibly.  Maybe even others based on the 4 elements.  We are not sure yet.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 12, 2011, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: JediDresden on July 12, 2011, 04:39:20 AM
We are planning an adventure in Hawaii and they have a rich mythology as well, they even have a mythical race of 'small people' (can't remember what their name is at the moment.  And even a ogre/troll-like race that the little people defeated before man came to the islands.  This is slim on details because I don't have the sources with me and others in the group are researching them more fully. 

We decided to forgo the traditional summer/winter courts for a local ones - like a water and earth court possibly.  Maybe even others based on the 4 elements.  We are not sure yet.
Have you considered Water / Ocean and Fire / Volcano?  Pele might rule the Volcano court while Ka-moho-aliʻi rules the Ocean.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: JediDresden on July 13, 2011, 06:42:14 AM
Yeah, it will probably be somehing like that, we have only had one short session to talk about it.  That is a good idea to tie in the old Hawaiian Gods though, maybe early Hawaiians worshiped the Fae as Gods.  I could see that,  Thanks for the idea.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Todjaeger on July 15, 2011, 06:20:29 PM
Having read through the thread, a couple of things come to mind.

First off, Fae are a broad range of creatures/beings which inhabit the Nevernever relatively 'close' to the mortal world.  Having said that, I get the impression from posts by others within the thread that most people seem to think anything/everything in the areas of the Nevernever close to the mortal world are Fae.  That is not my impression though. 
A case in point:  The
(click to show/hide)
, which have appeared in the short stories Even Hand and Aftermath, are related to the
(click to show/hide)
according to Gard (mentioned in Even Hand).

Given that the
(click to show/hide)
are a race of giants from Norse mythology, and that the
(click to show/hide)
are also a giant-like race from Celtic mythology, and that much of the Fae mythology is Celtic in origin, I would consider the
(click to show/hide)
to be an entirely separate race/group, not something whichs under the rather broad handing of 'Fae'.

I plan on treating the designation ‘Fae’ as sort of the genus of something, with then the specific type of Fae being a cobb, brownies, dewdrop fairie etc…  Much like how modern man is a homo sapiens, where homo is the genus indicating Man, and then sapiens indicating ‘Thinking” for modern man.  In terms of whether other ‘things’ found within the Nevernever are Fae or not, I would ask two questions.  The first is whether or not the things are known for always telling the truth, as that is one of the hallmarks of the Fae.  The other is whether or not they are vulnerable to iron, though I think there are some stories of Fae who aren’t harmed by iron.

Much of the non-Western mythology of spirits, creatures and beings I would treat as being something other than ‘Fae’.  The Mideast has Jinn, Oni and other spirits/demons/beings are found in Japan and Asia, etc.  Something also to keep in mind, non-Western cultures tend to use terms like demon, devil, ghost and spirit differently than Western cultures.  A Chinese term for ethnic Westerners is ‘gweilo’ pronounced gah-why-lo, which depending on translation works out to ‘white ghost’ or ‘white devil’

Now the designation ‘sidhe’ which I believe is Gaelic for ‘person’ seems to be used to indicate that a particular Fae has amassed some amount of power, be it magically, politically, socially, etc.  Enough for them to have some influence at least within the Courts, if not the supernatural community in general.  As such, the Erlking for instance seems to be a Goblin Sidhe, while Jenny Greenteeth, Maeve’s handmaiden in Summer Knight, was a Nixie Sidhe.

In terms of Fae courts there are by my count, four confirmed courts so far, with a fifth having been alluded to both in the DFRPG books as well as some of the comments by Jim.

These are the Seelie Court (Summer) lead by the Summer Mother, Queen Titania and Lady Lily.

There is also the Unseelie Court (Winter) led by the Winter Mother, Queen Mab and Lady Maeve.

Then there is the Court of the Erlking, leader of the Goblins and the Wild Hunt who is rumored to be Summer-affiliated.  Exactly to what extent remains to be seen.

Then in the short story Curses, a new Fae court, the
(click to show/hide)
makes an appearance.  Their present affiliations are unknown.

Lastly the seems to be a Winter-affiliated Court led by a Brownie Sidhe (hello Santa Claus…) king, the Winter counterpart to the Erlking.  So far though apart from comments in the DFRPG and by Jim, Santa Claus or whatever he is known as has yet to make an appearance.

Given Norse Svartalf (dark elves) have been mentioned, it seems logical to me to assume that there is also Svartalfheim and likely Alfheim (Dark elf home and Elf home respectively), both groups are likely some sort of Nordic Fae and likely have their own Courts.

In Changes, Toot-toot seemed to be upset that Sanya couldn’t tell the difference between a domovoi and a polevoi, having called Toot-toot a domovoi.  A domovoi is a household spirit, akin to a brownie, while a polevoi is dwarf-like spirit of the field.

Ultimately, whatever works in peoples own campaigns is really what matters.  I would still recommend that any Fae politics has to be squirrelly though.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 15, 2011, 06:38:50 PM
Fomori were the original rulers/gods of the Emerald Isle (and possibly the Isle of the Mighty), so I'm sure they would be insulted by comparing them with their eventual conquerors...

It also leaves open where the Tuatha de Danann fit into all of this...
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Todjaeger on July 15, 2011, 06:44:21 PM
Quote from: Bruce Coulson on July 15, 2011, 06:38:50 PM
Fomori were the original rulers/gods of the Emerald Isle (and possibly the Isle of the Mighty), so I'm sure they would be insulted by comparing them with their eventual conquerors...

It also leaves open where the Tuatha de Danann fit into all of this...

As I recall Irish legends, there were a number of invaders of the Emerald Isle, the Tuatha de Danann were the third? I also seem to recall some Scottish legends relating to the fomori as well, although with some of the early co-mingling of the Irish and Scots (plus the decline/intermarriage of the Picts) much of the Celtic myths can be hard to follow.

-Cheers
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 15, 2011, 09:24:02 PM
The Fomori held the island, and fought against the Tuatha de Danann, defeating them once and losing (big time) on the re-match (The first and second battles of Mag Tuiredh; and don't ask me how that's pronounced...)  On the second fight, Lugh threw a sling bullet through Balor, knocking Balor's Eye (the original 'evil eye') out of Balor's head, killing him and pretty much deciding the war at that moment.

The Fomori were (mostly) hideous to behold giants, although one of them (blanking on the name) was fair to behold (and made king as a sop to the Tuatha after the first battle; sadly, he was good looking but not very bright).
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Technobuilder on July 27, 2011, 08:45:55 PM
Based on the events of "Ghost Story" a lot of this speculation has been explained somewhat.

Especially regarding the Formor & The other fae courts.
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: UmbraLux on July 27, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
Yes, it also added a new court I need to research...
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Todjaeger on July 28, 2011, 03:29:48 AM
Quote from: Technobuilder on July 27, 2011, 08:45:55 PM
Based on the events of "Ghost Story" a lot of this speculation has been explained somewhat.

Especially regarding the Formor & The other fae courts.

Indeed, the Fomor are apparently related in some fashion to the Fae, and share a vulnerability to iron.  Not to mention several potential Courts were mentioned.  Unfortunately I loaned out my copy (already finished it...) so I can't recall just what the specific names were at the moment.

-Cheers
Title: Re: Fae Politics
Post by: Rubycon on July 28, 2011, 07:58:20 AM
All in all, this looks like it should be very easy ton introduce a new faerie court into a campaign. Summer and Winter Courts seem to be something like "Global Players" in the fae realms while there are uncounted more or less powerful aditional courts, all with their own agenda and animosities and relations between them.