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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on June 21, 2011, 02:15:43 PM

Title: Spiritual Harm
Post by: ways and means on June 21, 2011, 02:15:43 PM
One of my players who recently bought hellfire asked if he could use it too attempt to rip someones soul from their body in a fatal and nasty kind off way, I at the time said yes and decided that spiritual damage would probably cause mental stress rather than physical. But when the PC then took out the enemy I was torn wether it was appriate to give the NPC the physical taken out concequence of death from a mental attack. Do people think spiritual harm would fall under mental or physical stress and does damage to an enemies soul count as lawbreaking if the enemy isn't killed?  
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: 13th~Nineteen on June 21, 2011, 03:58:35 PM
Well taking someone out mentally normally just drives them crazy and forces a concession. As to whether or not tearing out someone's soul would be lawbreaking the answer from me would be yes. It really depends on the flavor of the attack but it probably breaks the law against invading another's mind.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on June 21, 2011, 04:26:27 PM
Well, I could certainly imagine a mental consequence / taken out result so severe that it effectively renders the target brain dead.  A soulless body might simply appear to be a coma, from which they never recover.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Haru on June 21, 2011, 04:46:38 PM
Well, a taken out result of an attack on the soul could result in an intact body without a soul. If it will still function on auto or will go completely limb would be up to you, but the person that inhabited the body would be dead. To make it interesting, some malevolent entity from the far reaches of the nevernever might be attracted by the smell of the hellfire and find a perfectly good body to inhabid and enter the real world. That, of course would not happen instantly, so the empty shell would stay there for a while, maybe even be discovered by the police, examined and suddenly the entity inhabits the body and breaks free.

To make it more interesting, it is going to seek out the one who made it possible for him to enter the world and kill him, because he would be the one who could send him back. It doesn't have to be like that, but the entity believes this, so it is going to try and kill the character anyway.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: sinker on June 21, 2011, 07:22:02 PM
Amusingly enough we can look at soulfire for the answer to that question. In the books it's been established (I think Bob said it, but I'm not sure)
(click to show/hide)
I think it's safe to assume that anything else that removes or damages someone's soul is capable of killing them.

Also mental stress works just as well as anything else in this case, and the taken out result usually has more to do with how you got there than what stress you were dealing. Keep in mind though that some things don't have a soul, and some things have a couple of souls (kinda).
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Haru on June 21, 2011, 07:32:24 PM
Uh, I just thought of something else:
There is an entry where Bob talks about the soul and says it is all over the place. What if those pieces are still connected, and you could sever or change them? Someone holding a piece of your soul because he is your friend could be turned into an enemy that way, or severing the connection could make him... not forget, but you are no longer the friend you were, you are just "that guy I know" to him now. Social consequences by cutting into the soul. Is that prohibited under the laws or is that a very shadowy grey area?
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: devonapple on June 21, 2011, 08:10:48 PM
Quote from: Haru on June 21, 2011, 07:32:24 PM
Uh, I just thought of something else:
There is an entry where Bob talks about the soul and says it is all over the place. What if those pieces are still connected, and you could sever or change them? Someone holding a piece of your soul because he is your friend could be turned into an enemy that way, or severing the connection could make him... not forget, but you are no longer the friend you were, you are just "that guy I know" to him now. Social consequences by cutting into the soul. Is that prohibited under the laws or is that a very shadowy grey area?

At that point, you are tampering with OTHER peoples' minds, albeit for the goal of indirectly complicating your target's life.

Edited to add: Which is most likely Lawbreaking. Subtle, hard to track, but definitely on the table as something which personally warps the spellcaster.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: sinker on June 21, 2011, 08:27:30 PM
I don't know, that's a weird question. You aren't technically altering their mind, and you aren't even altering their soul, just the portion of someone else's soul that rests in them. I guess it might be transforming another person...
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: tetrasodium on June 22, 2011, 12:06:19 AM
Mwahahaaaaaaa It sounds like it might break a few laws
- First law: Never take a life, self explanatory application
- Second: Never transform another:  I got the impression that kemmlerite type "true magic" as infused by uber-bob was fueled by
(click to show/hide)
(as was the
(click to show/hide)
).  Transforming their essence to energy could qualify as second law depending on interpretation.
- Third Law: Never invade the thoughts of another:  Ok it depends on if the process imparts knowledge or could potentially be considered invasion
- Fourth Law, Never Enthrall Another:A soulless husk might be practically enthralled and could qualify.  I think(if tv is to be believed) Some evil voodoo stuff for creating zombies involves stealing the soul and making the body obey because you have control over the soul.
-Fifth law, never reach beyond the borders of life.  Ripping the fires of creation from someone and potentially interrupting the process of what that energy should go through could qualify... Ok it depends on your interpretation.

Ok it probably doesn't violate the sixth or seventh laws.. but hey how much fun can you expect from a single spell :).  I'd probably allow it and say it breaks rules 1 & 2+? depending on how easy the kill is

Depending on how you decide a soulless husk acts, it might also be breaking the first & second laws along with possibly the fourth or fifth depending on the effect.  If it kills, go with fifth... but probably not the first time*.  If it leaves behind a soulless husk void of drive then definitely fifth.  


*Tearing out the fires of creation & leaving them floating around to disperse/linger on their own instead of taking whatever normal process it takes is sure to attract something's attention.Interrupting normal dispersal/recycling process is likely to cause some kind of problem after it's done too often.  Look up Guff of Souls sometime, there is plenty of religions that say the soul gets reborn/recycled though.  I'm sure you can think of something fun and suitably fitting for your campaign.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Set Abominae on June 22, 2011, 01:59:34 AM
For some reason I read that as "Spiritual Ham".

Perhaps I'm needing a bacon fix... ::)

Ignore me, carry on.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Becq on June 24, 2011, 12:31:07 AM
While opinions vary, mine is that *any* use of True Magic to cause mental damage is Lawbreaking.  Why?  Because mental damage, to a varying extent, changes your mind, soul, or sense of self.

In any case, killing someone by ripping their soul out of their body is *absolutely* Lawbreaking.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Becq on June 24, 2011, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: Set Abominae on June 22, 2011, 01:59:34 AM
For some reason I read that as "Spiritual Ham".
Perhaps you'd like to add some Chicken Soup for the Soul (http://www.chickensoup.com/) to your meal?
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Haru on June 24, 2011, 12:47:00 AM
Quote from: Becq on June 24, 2011, 12:31:07 AM
In any case, killing someone by ripping their soul out of their body is *absolutely* Lawbreaking.

I agree, but my question was not about killing that way, it was about social consequences by severing the connection of souls. Memories and such would still be intact, but something would still be missing.

Quote
Chicken Soup for the Soul
I want a casefile with that name. Pure Awesome  ;D

Maybe a trilogy:
- Spiritual Ham
- Chicken Soup for the Soul
- Bacon of Hope
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Becq on June 24, 2011, 12:54:58 AM
Quote from: Haru on June 24, 2011, 12:47:00 AM
Maybe a trilogy:
- Spiritual Ham
- Chicken Soup for the Soul
- Bacon of Hope
You mean Bacon of Hope (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=40)?  :)
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Haru on June 24, 2011, 01:14:23 AM
Quote from: Becq on June 24, 2011, 12:54:58 AM
You mean Bacon of Hope (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=40)?  :)

I totally forgot that comic, great  :D
But I kind of had a story involving a true believer butcher in mind, which, as I now notice, is even more perfect, than I originally thought ;D
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: devonapple on June 24, 2011, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Haru on June 24, 2011, 12:47:00 AM
I agree, but my question was not about killing that way, it was about social consequences by severing the connection of souls. Memories and such would still be intact, but something would still be missing.

I can see the desired rhetorical point, but the actual execution (turning people against the target because their soul-connection was severed or otherwise polluted) sounded pretty much like mind tampering with a different special effect.

Quote from: Haru on June 21, 2011, 07:32:24 PM
Someone holding a piece of your soul because he is your friend could be turned into an enemy that way, or severing the connection could make him... not forget, but you are no longer the friend you were, you are just "that guy I know" to him now. Social consequences by cutting into the soul. Is that prohibited under the laws or is that a very shadowy grey area?

This is changing another human's behavior. Fundamentally Lawbreaker. Clever, certainly, but not enough to sidestep the intent of the Lawbreaker mechanism.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: sinker on June 24, 2011, 07:38:11 PM
I don't know. I'm reminded of the bit where Jim (or Fred? My memory is hazy) talks about how intent matters when breaking the laws, but what matters more is the reality. Whether or not the person actually broke the law. Has someone been enthralled? No, the person's will and mind are untouched and still their own. No one was killed. It might fall under physical transformation, but the more I think about it the more that seems all wrong. And if we go off of Haru's description then we definitely didn't break the third law. Five, six and seven are also out, so I'm not sure it would be lawbreaking. Wrong and evil, definitely, but lawbreaking? I don't think so. It's definitely an interesting idea/question.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: devonapple on June 24, 2011, 08:42:24 PM
Quote from: sinker on June 24, 2011, 07:38:11 PM
Has someone been enthralled? No, the person's will and mind are untouched and still their own.

And this is where I disagree. Their will HAS been touched if the final result is "X isn't as close a friend as before" and they didn't come to that on their own.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: sinker on June 24, 2011, 09:01:42 PM
It just seems to me like it's still their decision, still their will. You're just influencing it. Just like when you put up a wall of fire that forces them to go a specific way, you aren't taking their will, just influencing their decision. After that point they could still become friends with the other person again, in fact it's likely since they found something of worth in that friendship before.

To be honest I'm just not sure. Neither answer seems quite correct to me. As I said, it's a really interesting question.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: wyvern on June 24, 2011, 09:27:33 PM
YS240: "Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person."
I'd say that pretty clearly makes this a fourth law violation - though I could see statting up an NPC (with lawbreaker stunts) who was under the mistaken impression that it was a successful end-run around the rules.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Haru on June 24, 2011, 09:29:38 PM
Devonapple, you're probably right. I still think it's a fun idea, but it would (should) fall under the laws anyway.

You couldn't even create an interesting villain, because he would be beheaded either way. If it were only to the letter of the law, it might work. stupid laws...  ::)
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: wyvern on June 24, 2011, 09:39:04 PM
Sure you can - you just have to make them subtle, and the wardens busy.  At which point the question becomes: Do the PCs report this person or not?

Is what they're doing truly evil, or do their good intentions count for anything?  (The books would answer "yes" and "not much", respectively.  But is it deserving of beheading, or should the PCs aim for redemption instead - albeit at the risk of losing their own heads for collusion if the crime ever comes to light?)
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: devonapple on June 24, 2011, 10:25:01 PM
Don't get me wrong: it sounds like an especially subtle means of influence, one which would require the "good guys" to perform research which would, itself, be almost Lawbreaking - and certainly under close scrutiny - in order to ken the source and/or ramifications of this. It'sd make a great adventure idea.
Title: Re: Spiritual Harm
Post by: Masurao on June 30, 2011, 08:15:56 PM
My take on stealing/disrupting/destroying pieces of soul resting with someone else, would rest on the idea that it is a two-way street. You become friends with someone, help them in time of need, it costs you a bit of soul to go to certain lengths. It restores theirs. And the other way around. Bob says that all sorts of things can restore 'soul', from a hug, to someone saving your life. (Along those lines, at least.)

So, you are bestest friends with someone and an insindious mage somehow alters the piece of your soul with him. You still have some of his soul, by that reasoning, and it wouldn't be altered. It could be healed through time and effort. As such, I'd rather see it as dimming that part of the soul, unless you somehow manage to erase both of the exchanged pieces of soul. That in turn, would clearly be altering the mind, as it is counter-intuitive to stop liking someone just like that.

For story and/or game purposes, however, I wouldn't even go there. The best you should be able to do by altering 'borrowed soul', is make someone grow colder towards someone else, if you don't want to affect their mind directly and it probably isn't worth the effort. Any individual with a bit of self-reflection would simply assume he/she had an off-day and apologize sometime later. Simply removing memories of friendship altogether, would truly destroy the borrowed soul, but obviously be Lawbreaking.

Another question you might wish to consider, what good would it do you to alter someone's soul, wherever it might reside? Bob noted that humans always get so worked up about their souls, while it isn't that much of an issue. Besides, beings like the angels,
(click to show/hide)
might detect such magic and object to it. It might be an interesting hook, but I would make sure it is never considered worth delving too deep in the matters of the soul, as the mind hovers so close-by.

My €0,02...