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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: devonapple on June 10, 2011, 11:50:11 PM
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Player: "How tall is that fence?"
GM: "The razor-wired-lined fence is about ten feet high."
Player: "As a [insert werecreature here] I should be able to jump it"
[GM determined the border difficulty of crossing it is 4]
GM: "Excellent: roll Athletics to see if you can jump it."
[rolls dice]
GM: "What's the final result?"
Player: "3 shifts. SO do I make it over the fence? As an [insert werecreature here] it should be pretty easy."
GM: "Well..."
What do *you* do when this happens?
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I hold to the difficulty. It is just as hard to jump that fence, the animal form is just better suited to do it. An elk can jump an 8 foot fence, doesn't mean it can't mess up. Deer accidentally get caught on fences all the time.
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Why not spend a Fate Point to invoke your [insert werecreature here] aspect?
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It's pretty clear the player was trying to invoke their high concept there. Since they seem disinclined to put a fate point on the line on their own, it's time to throw a compel at them; clearly, in their overconfidence, they ended up caught in the fence, tangled up and restrained for whoever comes by and finds them. If the player buys off the compel, then they can make it over, no problem (as a fate point would've provided the +2 needed to actually clear the barrier normally.)
Edit: in other words, they failed, and I choose to escalate that failure, putting a fate point on the line to make the situation go from "failed to cross fence" to "failed to cross fence and hopelessly tangled up in nasty wires that'll shred you in moments if you're so foolish as to try to revert to human form to extricate yourself."
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I hold to the difficulty. It is just as hard to jump that fence, the animal form is just better suited to do it. An elk can jump an 8 foot fence, doesn't mean it can't mess up. Deer accidentally get caught on fences all the time.
This.
The player can always try again or invoke an aspect.
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The "as an x I should be able to do x" is exactly what invoking the high concept is for. Situational bonuses are handled by invoking aspects in the game (whether through tags or fate points).
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I don't know if it would be appropriate in this case, but I believe there is an option to increase the time it took you to do something in to make up for the missing shifts. Say, something like "You misjudged the height of the fence, so you had to try it a second time to actually make it over". In other words, they didn't fail, they just didn't succeed as quickly as they might have liked.
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Player: "As a [insert werecreature here] I should be able to jump it"
This statement is wrong. It is not what you are that says whether you can do something or not. What you are is an aspect, giving you at best a situational +2. What you can do is determined a lot more by your skills and abilities;
Player 1 is a weregoat with inhuman speed, echoes of the beast; goat (may use alertness for navigation, +1 to athletics for climbing) and an athletics of +1. He has a +3 athletics bonus for climbing, +4 if he "sprints" to double his Inhuman Speed bonus. There's a 40% chance he fails to pass the fence - because while being a weregoat, he is far less athletic than the average goat.
Player 2 is a weregoat like player 1 but he has an athletics of +5. With an effective Athletics of +8 for climbing, he automatically goes over such fences with ease, not only because he is a weregoat but because he is also extremely athletic.
And yes, I've seen cats that cannot climb trees - when you weight 30 pounds as a cat, you can't climb.
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What do *you* do when this happens?
First, I'd only be asking for a die roll if both success and failure stakes are interesting. That doesn't have to be "make it over the fence" or "can't climb the fence". It might be "leap over in one bound and gain ground on that fleeing monster" or "leap, grab the top, and drag yourself over...meanwhile that monster has gained a zone on you..."
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First, I'd only be asking for a die roll if both success and failure stakes are interesting. That doesn't have to be "make it over the fence" or "can't climb the fence". It might be "leap over in one bound and gain ground on that fleeing monster" or "leap, grab the top, and drag yourself over...meanwhile that monster has gained a zone on you..."
In this case though (jumping a 10 foot fence topped with razor wire) the results are 'interesting' even if the character is not chasing or being chased by someone.
A successful jump would put the character over the barrier, a failure could mean that the character doesn't make it, or gets entangled in the wires and/or cut up by the wires.
-Cheers
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Add a complication.
The player always succeeds. But a failed roll means something bad happens. An added complication.
Jumped the fence, but you ripped your backpack open on the razor wire, its contents are spread all over.
Jumped the fence, but you caught your leg on some barbs/landed wrong take some damage.
Jumped the fence, but it was electrified. You made it over, but got a nasty shock.
Jumped the fence, but you made quite a bit of noise, you think the guards noticed something going on and can see them coming to investigate.
etc etc etc
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I think it was Devon himself who came up with the idea of taking concequences to help boost a bad roll, I would off thought this would be a prime example let the person get over the fence and give them a minor concequence of a cut from the barbed wire.
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I think it was Devon himself who came up with the idea of taking concequences to help boost a bad roll, I would off thought this would be a prime example let the person get over the fence and give them a minor concequence of a cut from the barbed wire.
Yes, I think I did! Thank you for the reminder.
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I think it was Devon himself who came up with the idea of taking concequences to help boost a bad roll, I would off thought this would be a prime example let the person get over the fence and give them a minor concequence of a cut from the barbed wire.
Ooh, I like that!
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Eh? This argument just... seems weird. I mean, is he arguing that he should get to skip rolls or ignore their results because it's appropriate for his supernatural type?
I mean, what. That's like arguing that because your High Concept is "Badass Assassin", you get to skip attack rolls and always hit whatever you want. After all, shooting accurately should be easy as [insert gun wielding concept here].
What his character is capable of is outlined on his sheet. If he doesn't have a particular ability, he doesn't get to handwave it away.
This is just not how it works. If he wants, he can invoke any of his Aspects for bonuses as per the usual - or use anything else that is on his sheet.
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Eh? This argument just... seems weird. I mean, is he arguing that he should get to skip rolls or ignore their results because it's appropriate for his supernatural type?
That was the attitude as I perceived it.
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That was the attitude as I perceived it.
Just Say No. :-)
Cite a few examples. By the same token, someone with a Wizardly concept should be able to sling heart exploding curses, since if Victor Sells could do it, he, as a full-blown Wizard, most certainly can. Someone with a Marcone-esque concept clearly doesn't have to check his Resources to see if he can acquire Microsoft, it's obvious he's filthy rich - so he can, right? A RCI/WVC with a High Concept of "Friendly Neighborhood Vampire" clearly doesn't need to check if he can resist Hunger, of course he can! He's friendly!
No, you don't get to do that without the rules or a roll(unless it's uninteresting background that doesn't need to be rolled). This is precisely why rules for an RPG exist in the first place. So that you can have an objective standard of what each character is capable of and so that you can have meaningful interactions with the 'virtual environment' created by the GM. If this is gone, then games devolve into something similar to a child's game "I shot you!" "Nuh uh" "Yes I did, you're dead!" "No, you didn't!".
Or, in other words, there's a reason there's a "G" in "RPG". That's the Game part. Game means there are rules. Of course, there are situations in which you can't easily apply those rules, in which you have to apply GM Fiat(or make up a rule) to resolve a situation, but this is clearly not one of them.
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I agree with Taer.
This is exactly what the aspect rules are for.
It's possible that your player is used to always having an aspect that can be invoked for +2. The books seem to be written under the assumption that an invokable aspect is at least semi-special and that players will sometimes end up spending FP for +1 bonuses. But many people (including me) let players invoke aspects that are only loosely related. This can cause the sort of attitude problem that we have here, where players see no value in an appropriate aspect.
You can probably solve this by being a real hardass about what can be invoked. Probably. I can't be sure because I've never tried it.
I don't intend to, either. If a player is satisfied by the connection between the aspect and the task, then I can accept it.
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Taking the "enough rope to hang themselves" approach I think i'd go for the "well if you are sure.... Yes you easily slip into your were bandicoot form and bound up the side of the fence. As you sit on the top deciding the best route down, a glint catches your eye and you see a security camera focused exactly on the spot where you transformed... And your next step is...?"
There by setting up next weeks mission of 'retrieve the security tapes from the vault of //local news station, Police,FBI, Spanish inquestion,where ever// before the shit hit the fan'.
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One comment about those advocating a strict success or failure approach - the world is seldom so black and white. Do you want the game to draw such hard lines?
I'm sure some do. I prefer a grayer game. Not every challenge will be framed as succeed or fail and not every success will be without consequences. Take the case of that fence...what happens in the failure scenario? Does he simply pick himself up off the ground and give it another go? Throwing yourself repeatedly at an obstacle until you finally succeed bores me. Success with complications is more interesting to me.
Complications could be anything from delay which gives a fleeing perp a better chance of escaping, to ripping shirt & skin on the razor wire - leaving evidence behind, to pain and adrenaline forcing a shapechanger to change at a potentially inappropriate time...or something else entirely. Depending on the situation I might describe it as an aspect or might not. Call it a GM declaration which nets those extra shifts needed...at a cost.
Obviously it's not the way everyone plays. But it's also not "ignoring rolls". Sometimes using the rolls to decide "how" creates a story better than "what".
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If the player insist on not rolling the dice, an Invoke for effect on his High Concept should let him get over the fence without a roll.