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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: z2xm on June 07, 2011, 06:25:41 PM

Title: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: z2xm on June 07, 2011, 06:25:41 PM
Right, so, Scenario: Lets say our intrepid heroes are tracking a supernatural threat across the city.  This threat uses a flute to lull people to sleep and then robs them.  Maybe a bank, or a store.  The wizard sees the residual magic, uses the sight, examines a victim, basically figures out that it is a flute causing the catatonic state.

Once the wizard is ready to face the threat, he starts the day by using his high lore skill, some decelerations and an aspect to traumatically place a 6 shift block on a pair of earmuffs.  A 6 shift block against flute music.  It's thaumatur2gy so it lasts basically until the next dawn. He argues that as written the rules for thaumturgy are presented so that you can carry out the 4 basic actions you can with evocation.

I am uncomfortable with this resolution and this level of power in the magic system.  I cannot, however, find something that really says that the magic system does not work this way.  I could just treat it as an on the fly magic item, like a potion, but that isn't right either.

Any thoughts, is this totally legal?  Am I missing something?

fyi, I let him get do it because it allowed he and the other players to have a ton of fun feeling super powerful going into the fight.  I just want to see if this is normal.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on June 07, 2011, 06:51:08 PM
Yep, that's a completely valid and creative use of Thaumaturgy.

Really, Thaumaturgy can solve ANY problem as long as you can call up enough power, control it, and have the appropriate symbolic connections.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: sinker on June 07, 2011, 07:02:04 PM
Feel free to tell him he's wrong... sort of.

The only blocks that thaumaturgy is capable of are wards, and if you actually read the portion on wards you will find this little paragraph here (I added the emphasis):

Quote
Wards don’t have a “scale” concern, the way
that veils do, and they cannot move. They are
almost always tied to a particular place’s natural
thresholds—think of them as a super-boosted
immune system—so they are limited by the size
of that threshold. Without a threshold they can
only be set up to cover a small area at most—
usually a point of transition such as a doorway
or intersection.

Wards are rooted to a place. Even when you aren't using a natural threshold as a basis they are still immobile and remain where you cast them. And as I said earlier wards are the only thaumaturgical blocks.

Now, just because he was wrong on the one thing does not mean he couldn't do that, it just means he didn't know the right way. Technically he could have used enchanted items (or more appropriately potions) to create the effect that he wanted. Enchanted items are capable of any effect of evocation or thaumaturgy and can be activated when you need it. In fact there's a great example of a ward potion (if you use the word potion to mean one use enchanted item as DFRPG does) near the end of Turn Coat.

Of note, four actions? I can only think of attack, maneuver, and block. Unless you're talking about moving, and neither evocation nor thaumaturgy is capable of that. Well there is worldwalking, but that's not really moving with magic. You still have to physically move yourself from one place to another, it's just that the distance between the two is shortened.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: zcthu3 on June 07, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
I'd allow it, but we generally treat temporary Thaumaturgy effects (i.e. things not requiring enchanting slots) as lasting a "scene" (about 15 minutes) unless the guidance in YS says otherwise (i.e. so Wards last until the next sunrise or sunset as the default, but most other effects last 15 minutes or so).

That means, your Thaumaturgist can create his mobile block but it will require more power than 6 shifts, i.e. the block at 6 shifts plus the steps on the Time Table.

Note, that 15 minutes might be too short a "base" time. We've just started our campaign up again and I am going to relook at it this weekend and see if I change my mind.

Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Haru on June 07, 2011, 07:40:20 PM
Doing a block like that with thaumaturgy is absolutely valid, but under your circumstances, there are some things missing.

First of: The duration of thaumaturgy like that would, in my opinion, be limited to "1 scene" per default (longer duration would need additional shifts), though I would also allow preparing this in advance to use in a specific scene (during some sort of preparation scene before the big fight for example). If you want to always have things like that at hand, that is what enchanted items are for. And the daily routine of refreshing the spell can just be there to color it.

Then I am missing a symbolic link. Sure, he could lay a block against any sound on those earmuffs fairly easy, but just against a flute (and probably a magical flute or at least a magical melody) he would need some sort of link to block out only that, with the rest of his hearing unimpaired.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Tedronai on June 07, 2011, 07:44:46 PM
Harry did pretty much exactly this for Murph when they were faced with the Mind Fog in...whichever book that was.
(also, I'm pretty sure the duration was only a scene)
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: zenten on June 07, 2011, 07:45:52 PM
Then I am missing a symbolic link. Sure, he could lay a block against any sound on those earmuffs fairly easy, but just against a flute (and probably a magical flute or at least a magical melody) he would need some sort of link to block out only that, with the rest of his hearing unimpaired.

Buying a flute as part of the prep would make sense to me.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: sinker on June 07, 2011, 08:01:58 PM
Wait... Does anyone have a RAW backing for any of this? Tedronai? Haru? Mostly because I just looked at the thaumaturgy rules and Wards were the only place I found blocks.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Tedronai on June 07, 2011, 08:04:08 PM
See also veils
see also Types of Thaumaturgy not being an exhaustive list
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Michael Sandy on June 07, 2011, 08:07:41 PM
Might be mechanically easier to just make a lore declaration and navel gazing maneuver:
"The ear muffs protect me from the flute's magical effects"  one free tag and you can invoke it again with fate points.

A way that is supported by the books is to build it as a potion, or magic charm that protects from magic for a limited period of time.

You can do all sorts of magical preparations if you are willing to commit an enchanted item slot to it.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Haru on June 07, 2011, 08:17:40 PM
Wait... Does anyone have a RAW backing for any of this? Tedronai? Haru? Mostly because I just looked at the thaumaturgy rules and Wards were the only place I found blocks.

Page 264:
Quote
It can be used for some of the same basic effects as evocation, but the results are more elaborate and lasting.

Page 266:
Quote
You can choose to move the spell's duration up one step on the time chart starting from an appropriate default and adding one to the complexity for every step you want to go.

Of course, the definition of appropriate is going to vary from group to group. I think one scene is always a good starting point, because otherwise people are going to use the same thing ever and ever again, and that would not really be all that interesting. Of course, YMMV.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on June 07, 2011, 08:18:21 PM
Wait... Does anyone have a RAW backing for any of this? Tedronai? Haru? Mostly because I just looked at the thaumaturgy rules and Wards were the only place I found blocks.

The thing is, Thaumatugry can do ANYTHING.  Look again at the thaumaturgy section where it talks about how to determine how many shifts of power are required, especially when it talks about "simple actions" and doing things that would normally be impossible for a human to do.  Blocking a specific kind of sound with magic earmuffs isn't that far off from covering your ears or using noise-canceling headphones.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: UmbraLux on June 07, 2011, 08:28:52 PM
Wait... Does anyone have a RAW backing for any of this? Tedronai? Haru? Mostly because I just looked at the thaumaturgy rules and Wards were the only place I found blocks.
Harry's duster (YS:303) is a thaumaturgy created enchanted item providing mobile armor (a block) against damage.  The OP's earmuffs sound very similar except they're a block against sound. 
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: BumblingBear on June 07, 2011, 09:12:39 PM
Harry's duster (YS:303) is a thaumaturgy created enchanted item providing mobile armor (a block) against damage.  The OP's earmuffs sound very similar except they're a block against sound. 

Bingo.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: devonapple on June 07, 2011, 09:19:08 PM
Not all Blocks are Wards: Wards are a special kind of Block. I think Block is appropriate in this case.

However, if we want to sidestep the Block situation entirely, then an alternative would be to figure out the skill used to resist this magic (Discipline? Presence?) and use Thaumaturgy to provide a temporary defense skill of X shifts (Say, 10 shifts giving the recipient a 10 Discipline for 1 scene), and then increase the duration from 1 scene by adding Complexity, as mentioned before.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Todjaeger on June 08, 2011, 04:11:27 AM
Not all Blocks are Wards: Wards are a special kind of Block. I think Block is appropriate in this case.

Something important to keep in mind (at least in my opinion...)  What is so different and special about Wards, is that a Ward is something which is (or can be) both a defensive and offensive Block, at the same time.  An Evocation Block can be defensive, or it can be offensive (a la Ramirez's Water-based entropy block) but not at the same time.

Generally speaking, Thaumaturgy can do anything which Evocation can do, it just can't do it as quickly.  In many instances, Thaumaturgy can achieve a 'better' effect than Evocation can, having more time to collect and control power, etc.  Again though, it just isn't able to achieve a given effect as quickly. 

-Cheers
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: sinker on June 08, 2011, 06:16:12 AM
Generally speaking, Thaumaturgy can do anything which Evocation can do, it just can't do it as quickly.  In many instances, Thaumaturgy can achieve a 'better' effect than Evocation can, having more time to collect and control power, etc.  Again though, it just isn't able to achieve a given effect as quickly. 

I just don't see this in the RAW. If you guys are seeing something I'm not then I'd like to see it too. (of note I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, you just seem to have summarized this attitude very well)

See also veils
see also Types of Thaumaturgy not being an exhaustive list

Thaumaturgical veils are similar to wards in that they are immobile. YS276
Quote
Thaumaturgical veils are not usually mobile and
are constrained by thresholds and other barriers
that scatter magical energies (such as a river).

Also I'm not referencing the "Types of thaumaturgy" section, I'm referencing the "What can you do with it" section, which seems like it's pretty clear in enumerating the uses of thaumaturgy. The only reference in that section to blocks falls under wards. Read the section if you're interested.

The thing is, Thaumatugry can do ANYTHING.  Look again at the thaumaturgy section where it talks about how to determine how many shifts of power are required, especially when it talks about "simple actions" and doing things that would normally be impossible for a human to do.  Blocking a specific kind of sound with magic earmuffs isn't that far off from covering your ears or using noise-canceling headphones.

Actually I did check that section. It specifically mentions simple actions, maneuvers, contests, conflicts, and finally wards and veils. Simple actions as explained earlier in the book are single non-conflict skill rolls. It's also important to remember that simple actions are always uncontested (I.E. Player vs. set difficulty, not player vs. opposed skill roll). Look at YS192 for more info on simple actions.

@Haru Some effects of evocation does not mean all. If you look at my response to EdgeOfDreams you'll see that it can do almost all of the effects of evocation, but the only blocks mentioned are veils and wards which are both required to be immobile.

Harry's duster (YS:303) is a thaumaturgy created enchanted item providing mobile armor (a block) against damage.  The OP's earmuffs sound very similar except they're a block against sound. 

Finally, yes the crafting type of thaumaturgy can create evocation effects as enchanted items. Harry's duster creates an evocation block, just as his force ring creates an evocation attack. If you read my original post that is what I suggested.

Honestly I'm wondering where you guys are getting this in the RAW, because I've pretty thoroughly read the thaumaturgy section and I can't find any evidence for blocks that aren't wards or veils, which as I've said must be immobile.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: devonapple on June 08, 2011, 07:39:46 AM
Honestly I'm wondering where you guys are getting this in the RAW, because I've pretty thoroughly read the thaumaturgy section and I can't find any evidence for blocks that aren't wards or veils, which as I've said must be immobile.

Just as a note: I see time and time again that Evil Hat encourages extrapolating from existing rules, and most of the times I am having trouble with a concept, it is this advice which ends up working best. So, if Thaumaturgy can do everything Evocation can do, but better, more precisely, with a longer duration, I'm inclined to go for it.

A Ward has special rules about how it degrades, about placing mines, etc. A Block will simply dissipate if it is overcome, unless it is built as Armor. Allowing a Thaumaturgical Block - that is not a Ward - is not gamebreaking as I understand it.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Todjaeger on June 08, 2011, 08:12:19 AM
I just don't see this in the RAW. If you guys are seeing something I'm not then I'd like to see it too. (of note I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, you just seem to have summarized this attitude very well)

For starters, no, I don't feel like I'm being picked on, so no problem.

As for the RAW and attitude about the basic flexibility, or perhaps scope or depth of options, which Thaumaturgy can provide...

Here is from YS262, the very first paragraph/sentence underneath What You Can Do With It in Thaumaturgy

Quote
Thaumaturgy carries an extremely broad range of effects under its banner: summoning and binding supernatural entities like spirits or demons, divination and detection, wards, curses, temporary and permanent enchantments on people and things…the list is potentially endless.

The bolded being, in my opinion, the most important.  Thaumaturgy can be used effectively for whatever the GM/storyteller and players can agree on, subject to a reasonable difficulty of course.

-Cheers
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: sinker on June 08, 2011, 08:45:22 AM
Just as a note: I see time and time again that Evil Hat encourages extrapolating from existing rules, and most of the times I am having trouble with a concept, it is this advice which ends up working best. So, if Thaumaturgy can do everything Evocation can do, but better, more precisely, with a longer duration, I'm inclined to go for it.

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I think the thing that I keep coming back to is that it seems like an intentional omission. They go to the trouble of telling you exactly how any non-conflict action would function, as well as most of the conflict actions, but then specifically lay these limitations down on blocks. I just can't get over that.

I guess the best answer to the original poster is that if you want RAW justification to say no, it's there, but if you're having fun and it works for you there's justification to say yes too.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: UmbraLux on June 08, 2011, 12:41:07 PM
I think both the book and Fred are fairly explicit on wanting individual groups to interpret the rules their own way.  So what follows is my interpretation...

Thaumaturgy has two explicit limitations, preparation time and a requirement for symbols.  Beyond those limitations the possible uses "are potentially endless" as Todjaeger quoted.  When it comes to blocks, the symbol requirement is key.  A ward may use either threshold or circle as a symbol - both of which are immobile.  An enchanted item may use a jacket which is mobile.  Both are blocks.  That enchanted jacket could as easily be a spell cast once* rather than a long term enchantment.  It could also have been cast with / on any item meeting the requirement of being a protective symbol.

*I'd recommend following the requirement of paying fate points for temporary power gains.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on June 08, 2011, 05:20:45 PM
Yeah, I've noticed this too. I think the thing that I keep coming back to is that it seems like an intentional omission. They go to the trouble of telling you exactly how any non-conflict action would function, as well as most of the conflict actions, but then specifically lay these limitations down on blocks. I just can't get over that.

I guess the best answer to the original poster is that if you want RAW justification to say no, it's there, but if you're having fun and it works for you there's justification to say yes too.

To me, a block IS a simple action, not a contested one.  Normal, mundane blocks (or evocation blocks) involve a roll which sets the strength of the block.  That's it. No one rolls against you, there's no target number to overcome.  The result is a block of strength X.

THEN, if someone else wants to do whatever you blocked, they have to roll against the block.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Watson on June 08, 2011, 05:27:03 PM
I would also agree that Thaumaturgy would be able to do most of the things that can be done with Evocation. This would also mean that it is possible to perform a Thaumaturgical counterspell. I would, though, not allow any Thaumaturgical attacks, as this would be handled by the Transformation parts of the rules.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Haru on June 08, 2011, 05:34:03 PM
@Haru Some effects of evocation does not mean all. If you look at my response to EdgeOfDreams you'll see that it can do almost all of the effects of evocation, but the only blocks mentioned are veils and wards which are both required to be immobile.

The difference to me between wards and blocks is simply the default duration. A block would last only a scene, while a ward would probably start at a day.

Though I admit, this would be a little overpowered, just create a huge block object before a big fight, and nobody will be able to do anything against you.

Revised agenda:
Create them as a potion. I think that is what potion slots were meant to be, come to think of it. So it would be a simple block as per the evocation rules, you just don't have to pay stress, and you might be able to enhance them on the fly with an appropriate aspect.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: devonapple on June 08, 2011, 08:26:27 PM
Revised agenda:
Create them as a potion. I think that is what potion slots were meant to be, come to think of it. So it would be a simple block as per the evocation rules, you just don't have to pay stress, and you might be able to enhance them on the fly with an appropriate aspect.

For the "defend against the magic flute" scenario, that would also be a good idea.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Haru on June 08, 2011, 09:06:42 PM
For the "defend against the magic flute" scenario, that would also be a good idea.

That's what I meant it for. Or basically any plot based block to go.That is what potion slots are for, and if you create items extra, you are going to disrupt the whole item-slot-continuum. It even says so in the book, that you should always leave potion slots open for just such an occasion.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: sinker on June 08, 2011, 10:36:32 PM
Revised agenda:
Create them as a potion. I think that is what potion slots were meant to be, come to think of it. So it would be a simple block as per the evocation rules, you just don't have to pay stress, and you might be able to enhance them on the fly with an appropriate aspect.

That was my original solution. I think it works quite well.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: UmbraLux on June 09, 2011, 02:08:35 AM
Yep, the "potion" / enchanted item solution works well.

I would also agree that Thaumaturgy would be able to do most of the things that can be done with Evocation. This would also mean that it is possible to perform a Thaumaturgical counterspell. I would, though, not allow any Thaumaturgical attacks, as this would be handled by the Transformation parts of the rules.
Wouldn't you consider Sells' Heart Exploding spell an attack?
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: JustADude on June 09, 2011, 04:20:14 AM
I would also agree that Thaumaturgy would be able to do most of the things that can be done with Evocation. This would also mean that it is possible to perform a Thaumaturgical counterspell. I would, though, not allow any Thaumaturgical attacks, as this would be handled by the Transformation parts of the rules.
Wouldn't you consider Sells' Heart Exploding spell an attack?

Lets not forget that in "It's My Birthday, Too" it mentions Harry taking 20 seconds (which would be several exchanges) to cast an Earth spell to
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Taer on June 09, 2011, 07:28:08 AM
I'd say no, movable Thumaturgy blocks are a bad idea. It's not just about this particular spell itself. Rather, it sets a bad precedent.

If he can use them for blocking sound, why not for blocking physical damage? It's not that difficult to get a huge amount of shifts on Thaumaturgy. This is fine for Wards - they're immobile. However, actual long-lasting physical wards could lead to incredibly overpowered results.

At my most generous, I'd say you might allow it, but use the Time Increments table and start from "instant"(so, if he wants an hour-long shield, that's 7 shifts right there) - the duration of an Evocation block. Even so, it's a bad idea. It allows for any competent spellcaster with a cult(or other manpower willing to contribute consequences to the spell) to have a nigh-impenetrable shield for a very long time(after all, Time Increments go into years and lifetimes).

So, really, this situation would be better handled by the Temporary Power rules. Let him use a Thaumaturgy spell to say he stored the energy of the spell. At the actual scene where he wants to use it, allow for him to pick up Refinement as a temporary power. That's 4 four Enchanted Item slots right there, this gives him plenty of uses of the "item".

So, anyhow, I'd play it like this: base complexity of the spell is equal to Lore(the enchanted item's Strength) +0-7(for a scene long duration, depends on what the "base" time is) +2(1 Refresh being roughly equal to 2 shifts). After the spell is cast, he can spend one Fate Point(Temporary Power rules) in order to gain access to an "Enchanted Item" worth 4 Enchanted Item Slots(ie. -1 Refresh worth of Refinement) for one scene. He can only do this once, afterwards the spell is "spent" and he'd need to cast it again to gain any benefits.

Anyhow, even this feels fairly generous but I guess it's in keeping with the theme that a prepared wizard can be an nightmare.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Todjaeger on June 09, 2011, 08:02:58 AM
I'd say no, movable Thumaturgy blocks are a bad idea. It's not just about this particular spell itself. Rather, it sets a bad precedent.

If he can use them for blocking sound, why not for blocking physical damage? It's not that difficult to get a huge amount of shifts on Thaumaturgy. This is fine for Wards - they're immobile. However, actual long-lasting physical wards could lead to incredibly overpowered results.

At my most generous, I'd say you might allow it, but use the Time Increments table and start from "instant"(so, if he wants an hour-long shield, that's 7 shifts right there) - the duration of an Evocation block. Even so, it's a bad idea. It allows for any competent spellcaster with a cult(or other manpower willing to contribute consequences to the spell) to have a nigh-impenetrable shield for a very long time(after all, Time Increments go into years and lifetimes).

So, really, this situation would be better handled by the Temporary Power rules. Let him use a Thaumaturgy spell to say he stored the energy of the spell. At the actual scene where he wants to use it, allow for him to pick up Refinement as a temporary power. That's 4 four Enchanted Item slots right there, this gives him plenty of uses of the "item".

So, anyhow, I'd play it like this: base complexity of the spell is equal to Lore(the enchanted item's Strength) +0-7(for a scene long duration, depends on what the "base" time is) +2(1 Refresh being roughly equal to 2 shifts). After the spell is cast, he can spend one Fate Point(Temporary Power rules) in order to gain access to an "Enchanted Item" worth 4 Enchanted Item Slots(ie. -1 Refresh worth of Refinement) for one scene. He can only do this once, afterwards the spell is "spent" and he'd need to cast it again to gain any benefits.

Anyhow, even this feels fairly generous but I guess it's in keeping with the theme that a prepared wizard can be an nightmare.

Something I think people keep overlooking.  A Block is a Block is a Block... ut, there are different kinds of Blocks.

A Block which stops sound, is not going to have any sort of impact on stopping bullets, a fire blast, a car, etc.  In the case of something like ear muffs or headphones which have been used in a Ritual to provide protection vs. an enchanted flute, the Block could be that the ear muffs put out a field which cancels out the magic from the flute within a zone, or something else similar to that, not unlike how playing the exact same sound a half-step out of phase will completely cancel out the initial sound. 

-Cheers
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: z2xm on June 09, 2011, 06:30:25 PM
For the record this board is awesome!  Everyone has great opinions, founded in logic and backed by examples from the book (even though sometimes they seem to contradict, everybody has their own interpretation)  Keep it up!

I am going with treating these as a potion slot, since it mentions that they can be used for potions or other temporary magical items.  From now on they will be one use items that also open up an aspect that can be used for a fate point for the duration of the scene, or for longer if more shifts are paid.  It will function as a bonus to the skill required to defend against the effect.

Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: sinker on June 09, 2011, 08:15:25 PM
I am going with treating these as a potion slot, since it mentions that they can be used for potions or other temporary magical items.  From now on they will be one use items that also open up an aspect that can be used for a fate point for the duration of the scene, or for longer if more shifts are paid.  It will function as a bonus to the skill required to defend against the effect.

That sounds like a great way to do it, and I'm glad you found something that works for you. However I'll point out that bonuses to skill rolls are pretty disputed on this board. There is no rules for how to make that work and there is one example that makes us think it's possible but we really have no idea how. When you look at the rules there are two ways to get a skill bonus. 1) Aspects. Pretty self explanatory. 2)The "Solve impossible or improbable tasks" bit of Thaumaturgy allows us to replace a skill roll with the shifts of a spell. Throw in 6 shifts, then you've got a roll of six. Throw in 30 and it's safe to say that you succeed. The thing that throws a wrench in the whole thing is that Rashid's ointment is stated as a bonus to alertness skill rolls. Nowhere in the rules does it tell us how to do that....

Don't take any of this to mean don't do it, it's great that you've found a way that you like. I just thought  I'd tell you that if a player asks you where that is in the rules, you might hit a snag.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: false_tautology on June 09, 2011, 08:33:51 PM
Lets not forget that in "It's My Birthday, Too" it mentions Harry taking 20 seconds (which would be several exchanges) to cast an Earth spell to
(click to show/hide)
.

Actually an exchange is "usually not longer than a few minutes." So that could easily be Evocation.

YS314

But, I still agree with your premise! You can even blast people without line of sight with Thaumaturgy. You just need some link to the target. Killing people with magic is really easy.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Michael Sandy on June 10, 2011, 12:39:19 AM
With several exchanges, you can pump up an evocation pretty high.

For starters, assume that with the extra time to gather the power you are gathering the maximum you can without inflicting consequences.  So conviction +4, typically.  Add in some navel gazing maneuvers for the control roll, and the target is unawares, so gets a mediocre defense, you are talking 18 shifts easily.  If it is a mook, it doesn't automatically get to take beyond moderate consequences to avoid being taken out.

Hmmm.  Maybe have a rule that mooks don't generally take more than one consequence at a time.  So instead of it soaking mild, moderate, and severe all at once, the most it could take in one shot would be a severe.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: Becq on June 10, 2011, 12:57:06 AM
Hmmm.  Maybe have a rule that mooks don't generally take more than one consequence at a time.  So instead of it soaking mild, moderate, and severe all at once, the most it could take in one shot would be a severe.
If you go with the advice in the book (YS327), then 'minor mooks' (nameless NPCs) have no consequences at all.  Important mooks (supporting NPCs) have only up to moderate.  Only the main NPCs have the full range of consequences that PCs have...
Title: Re: Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?
Post by: JustinS on June 11, 2011, 07:35:09 PM
The coolness of potions is that they are what you need them when you need them, if you are willing to spend and safe fate points.

I too would model this with the special supernatural skill "Ignore sound" and buying duration up from one scene. If I had the spare power, I'd go with a boom box and not headphones and buy a zone of effect too.

I'd rule Ignore Damage is too broad a skill. Ignore fire/suppress fire, avoid bullets, or a hyper-senses defense (effectively magical athletics), but there is a whole, and to have something that has more power then evocation shields and enough duration to help is a lot of prep work.