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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on June 05, 2011, 05:00:40 AM
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The title says it all.
Most Play-By-Post games die pretty quickly, but some last a long time. I'm trying to work out what separates the long-lived sort from the rest.
My current hypothesis is that it's the GM. Every game will encounter problems and most will lose players. A persistent PbP GM keeps the game going anyway.
Could be wrong, though. Hence the thread.
For reference, here's my PbP history:
-I've GM'ed Enduring The Apocalypse for a little over six months. Which is a really long time by the standards of this board. Along the way we lost 1 player to a nasty little incident, 1 to real life trouble, and 1 to god-knows-what. We've also had a player incapacitated for a month with the flu and frequent slow posting from just about everyone. But I made a point of nagging people constantly, and my efforts have been rewarded. It helps that two new players have joined and that my players are generally excellent.
-I was involved with the MMPbP. It went well until the guy behind it all ended up in the hospital. Then it just died.
-I'm a player in Terror In Twin Cities, a fairly new game. It's been stalled because of a busy GM.
So, what do the rest of you think is the way to make a Play-By-Post game last?
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I've been wondering the same thing. My thoughts:
1) a dedicated GM. Of the 4 games I played before GM'ing my own, 3 died due to the GM losing interest early on. Staying on top of the game allows the players to play- they literally cannot go on without you.
2) good plot hook. A unique and intriguing plot hook/setting (such as the apocalypse or a plucky band of vampires ;D ) keeps the individuals playing interested.
3) dedicated players. You need several players that make up the soul of your game, that continually play and get invested. Be prepared to lose a few players, but you need those strong ones (it's gotten to the point where I'm keeping a list of players I know are dedicated in case I run another game :) )
4) renewable players. This is a cheap tactic somewhat. I had about 8 people interested in my WCV game. I put them on standby in case people quit. As such, my game has had 8 players, but only 4-6 at a time (3 replacements I've phased in, with more still interested). This can break continuity and momentum somewhat, use sparingly if at all.
5) time of year. This seems silly, but people are outside more in the summer (shockingly). Since May this board has slowed way down, and it's harder to keep interest as a result. Colder, indoor months are better for dedicated games.
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I'm a player in Terror In Twin Cities.
There is a game set in the Twin Cities and I wasn't aware of this? I frigging LIVE there! XD
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I agree with the OP. I really think after much observation that a persistant/dedicated GM is necessary.
I think if a GM is not dedicated to a game, they should not start it. I believe most games that die start with great intentions, but even in person games need a GM who is willing to put work into the game.
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I was involved with the MMPbP. It went well until the guy behind it all ended up in the hospital. Then it just died.
That's dark humor
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I actually ran through all of the games that died. When I did so, I think I discovered... 6-7 out of 10 games ended due to the GM. Whether they quit, dissapeared (the most common), did something wrong, or something else.
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I've run a lot of PBeM and play by post games over the years, the one things I have always avoided was any hint of game mechanics -
The most successful and long running ones have all had one critical aspect in common;
They have all revolved around people tell their characters stories in the style and pace they want, with other people's players turning up as 'bit parts' in the other persons plot and only with permission. (In many ways they are more 'MUSHes' than 'games')
However this way if a player drops out it does not strand others mid game. In fact 2 of these games have carried on without the ref for long periods of time when my real life got in the way and I didn't have time to supervise/ write anything.
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@Katarn: That rings very true with me. Especially the bit about the renewable players. I'd be interested in seeing that list, by the way.
@JayTee: Yep. Check out the PbP forum for details.
@BumblingBear: Amen.
@Mindflayer94: Wasn't trying to be funny...but now that I reread what I wrote, how did I miss that?
@MijRai: Wait...all of the games that died? How many is all? If you've got stories, I'd be glad to hear.
@Team8Mum: Wish I could run games like that.
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As a GM of a failed game here I can agree with Sancta... it's all about the GM. A player can get busy in real life and it's just a speed bump. The game will adjust, get a new player, and generally keep moving... if the GM puts in the effort and makes it happen.
If the GM get's too busy or doesn't fully commit, it's pretty much a done deal. I applaud anybody who takes up the mantle and tries to GM, but you should be aware that it's work. A lot of times it's easy and fun work, other times it's down right hard. Either way it takes time and effort to do it right.
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@Team8Mum: Wish I could run games like that.
The secret is you don't -The players do you just edit the plots together afterwards to smooth out any paradox they have inadvertently created :)
The trick is to do it on a wiki or googledocs or similar set up where every one can edit everyone's else's posts that way if some one has your character going something 'Wrong' because you wouldn't do it that way (or more commonly say it that way -I keep forgetting Lee never swears) you and rewrite to fit the character concept and correct things.
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Here is a list of dead games in rough order of death (newest to oldest), and my general opinion on how they died.
Las Vegas- Players
Tampa- GM
Seattle 2- GM
New Orleans- GM
Galveston- Dunno
Miami- GM & Players
New York 2- GM
WWII- GM
Tuscon- GM
Saint Louis- Players & GM
Raleigh- GM
London- GM
Seattle 1- GM
Roswell- GM
Los Angeles- GM
New York 1- GM
Houston- Dunno
Seoul- Dunno
So, out of 18 games, 14 died in relation to the GM. Over 2/3rds of the games ended that way. Now, not all of those are the GMs' faults. A number ended due to real life stuff. Others dissapeared without a word. Not so much justification there.
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I definitely agree that GM involvement is critical in keeping a PbP alive. I was involved in the Tampa game that was pretty successful until our GM had to drop out. One of the things that seemed to keep the game alive was not waiting for everyone to respond to the thread before the GM posted. It kept the action going, even if only for one character, that allowed the story to keep moving. I think it also may have helped to make sure other players responded when they could.
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@MijRai: I concur with you entirely on that list (of those games, I've looked at most of 'em before trying to run my own). I think the problem is sometimes the GM feels unappreciated, or far more likely and unfortunate, loses interest. My DnD DM had the same problem; we would get up to our necks in intrigue or a war, then he would grow bored, and it would quickly devolve into a final battle against the long-hidden foe.
I definitely agree that GM involvement is critical in keeping a PbP alive. I was involved in the Tampa game that was pretty successful until our GM had to drop out. One of the things that seemed to keep the game alive was not waiting for everyone to respond to the thread before the GM posted. It kept the action going, even if only for one character, that allowed the story to keep moving. I think it also may have helped to make sure other players responded when they could.
Tampa was a good game, and giving active players/GM flexibility was the main reason that went longer than a lot of games. Combat can be fouled up by turn order; it happened in Tampa somewhat and most other PbP. A flexible schedule (ex: you need to post within X hours of the person ahead of you, or else your turn is delayed and the order adjusted) could fix that problem, but it's rather harsh.
@Sanctaphrax: I'll PM it to you :)
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1. The GM. If the GM goes away, the plot will have a lot of trouble continuing. Even if the GM remains, if they choose too lenient of a gaming style ('Monty Hall' GMs) it can get boring, and too sadistic or restrictive can kill interest.
2. Players. Even a great GM can't necessarily hold things together if multiple players leave. If enough leave, most of the city/NPCs will need to be redesigned (e.g., in FtF, since 4/5 of the original cast has left, most of the NPCs and folks that were developed in the city itself aren't really applicable anymore). At some point it becomes more useful to just do another 'setting the scene' round where the city and characters are setup. There's also the issue of where good 'jumping in and out' points are; if players leave during a sequence where it's not plausible for new players to be added, the whole thing can bog down and make it take longer to get to a point where new people can enter, which increases the chances of game death.
Another note on players -- players whose posts are hard to read/use poor grammar can drag down a game, simply because others won't always be as inclined to read or respond to such posts.
3. Consistency of posting. The longest game that I'm aware of on the board is the chat game, which meets twice a week at set times to post. This ensures that the game happens.
4. Setting. Some settings don't lend themselves well to being RPGed. It can work at first due to novelty, but eventually the logistical difficulties are too strong to be overcome. (This can happen in games set in other fictional universes, e.g. a Potterverse game or a Death Note game, because the magical objects in those games don't really lend themselves well to the DFRPG.) Other problematic settings are those where the main characters have to compete against each other (e.g., in the extreme, a Battle Royale game) because this makes it harder to work as a team or accomplish much of anything significant, and games where characters don't have well defined motives to continue being in the game (i.e., no explanation of why they don't quit and go home).
5. Particular difficult scenes/characters/etc. If a game features something really new, it'll take more work on the part of the GM, which can make the GM want to drag their feet a bit as that scene approaches. They might also be forced to pause the game if they can't stat or create something in time. (E.g., in my game, the characters may eventually need to fight armored vehicles, which are challenging to stat because there aren't examples in the books. So, if I didn't stat those ahead of time and suddenly the characters had to fight a Blackhawk or a battleship or something, I might have had to pause the game to hash out the stats, maybe even run a combat test or something). Long enough pauses can derail things.
6. Inclusion of gimmick elements. If Slenderman shows up out of nowhere, great, but it just got a lot harder to run and play the game because you've got a gimmick that risks overwhelming the whole plot. This can be mitigated if the gimmicks are built into the campaign (e.g., in the above, a major adventure, designed from the beginning, is dealing with Slenderman), but then it's not really a gimmick anymore.
7. Mismatched setting/character level. Some settings are better for, say, 'Chest deep' campaigns than 'Snorkeling' or 'On the Beach.' If the plot is 'the characters are generals in Winter's army as they march against summer', statting them as 'On the Beach' will limit what they can realistically do against Summer's forces. On the other hand, 'Snorkeling' characters are liable to walk all over, say, the characters from some of Harry's earlier adventures, and this can make the game boring.
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As far as successful PbP's I've played in, mostly on other sites, it helps if a player or players help with the record keeping. It takes a lot of the burden off of the GM and let's them focus on keeping things moving.
Wiki's are good for that... a central location that anybody can edit. (as opposed to a post on a forum that only the OP can edit) Campaign logs, NPC Registry, Location Write ups, maps… an organized player is a GM’s best friend.
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Thanks all.
Looks like I was right to put the onus on the GM.
Maybe I'll write a brief summary of what's here. I think it could be useful.
By the way, how do people go about replacing players? It seems to be an inevitable part of any long-running game.
PS: I've never used a wiki for a game. I'll have to try it out sometime.
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Wiki's for games can really help. It's tedious to dig through all the old posts to find something.
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Thanks all.
By the way, how do people go about replacing players? It seems to be an inevitable part of any long-running game.
PS: I've never used a wiki for a game. I'll have to try it out sometime.
In my case, I had about 8 applicants for my game. I told the 3 who didn't make the first cut that if anyone would drop out, then would be in (2 of them took me up on it). Other people approached me privately and asked to be in- those I chose I did based on reputation (is this person just going to drop out too?, etc.) It's not too hard to incorporate new PCs depending on the story- the only thing I found got fouled up was inter-character aspects, though new interlopers makes for great intrigue and inter-PC social conflicts.
While it keeps a game going, I'm not sure if I recommend it- it does break continuity somewhat, but it can be the only way some games don't lose momentum.
Wiki's for games can really help. It's tedious to dig through all the old posts to find something.
If you have a GM dedicated to this, it's much more efficient to recall seemingly minor details a player wants to exploit. :D
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I've been in Team8Mum's PBeM / play by post game for about 18 years now, all that time playing more or less the same character (Rafaella).
The thing about her game is that it feels more like writing a collective story, or group of stories. Sometimes we'll all take turns to write, sometimes if she's busy or there's something particular you want to chase... you just get on with it and as she says, it means no-one's really dependent on the GM or anyone else. It also means you end up taking a major role in creating the world, which I gather happens a lot in Dresden too.
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Welcome Raefella!
I haven't run or played in a PbP here yet but I host a gaming forum at http://headonastick.com/forums/ (it's a small group and spambots hammer it so I keep registration closed except for direct requests) and have GMed a few long-running games. I happen to have a job where I CAN muck around on the internets here and there, so my posting time is during work, when applications are compiling or at lunch and so on. I have no posting time at home. I use Google Docs to write up my GM-posts so if work intrudes, I don't have to remember to keep my posting window open because google saves my work for me. If by some miracle I DO get posting time at home, I can load up the same post and continue working on it. So having convenient tools at hand is important too.
Wiki's for games can really help. It's tedious to dig through all the old posts to find something.
Hell yes. I use a wiki for my game, and it makes keeping track of current FP a breeze as well as having a central repository for character sheets.
Most of my players keep in touch on google talk as well. If I see someone online and their turn has come up, I’ll ping them and remind them. I try not to be pushy; only after it’s clear the game is waiting on them and it’s been a day or so. Gtalk is also really good for spot-handling FATE Point expenditure and Compels.
It's all about routine, convenience, and mitigating expectations. To speak to that last point, I think for a while I expected to get the same experience from PbP as I do from tabletop. Maybe that's what turns off some PbP players after a while, the disconnect between what they expected and the reality of a PbP game.
1. There is no shared thrill of rolling the dice in a PbP. No table banter, no immediacy. Combat is affected most by this IMO. I can sit at a tabletop game, say "I hit him with my axe", roll some dice, and still have a great time with my friends. You take that into a PbP and there's no real choice for a player. The GM might as well puppet the PCs for all the choice they have. In a PbP the GM needs to make sure the players are making choices, not just reacting to skill rolls, and I think FATE works extremely well for this. You have to set up each situation so the tension doesn’t come from “will I make this skill check”, but rather “which path do I want to take”?
2. Expect players to put in less work than you as the GM. It’s just how it is. I’ve never had any luck with mysteries, unraveling conspiracies, or complex heist plans in PbP games. OK, honestly, I’ve never really had luck with those in tabletop either. The point is, PbP take a long time to get through and you shouldn’t expect your players to remember clues or NPCs from more than maybe a few weeks ago. You can run a game with a richly detailed backstory and four tens of major NPCs, but you need to be prepared to handhold and remind the players as you go lest it become overwhelming. It’s not that players are stupid, God no, it’s that we’re ALL lazy. If it’s hard work to juggle all the game info, it’s going to decrease the incentive for players to engage with the game.
3. Playstyle conflict. Any pick-up PbP will have this, I think. Somebody is going to join thinking it’s a game with X and find out it’s a game with Y and they’re going to lose interest. There’s nothing to do for this except recognize it as early as possible so you can go your separate ways.
4. Posting rates. If the group can agree on a posting rate (more or less), that’ll help manage expectations as to the speed of the game, plus you can call out slow players on the agreement.
5. Keep the game moving. I believe this is termed “aggressive scene framing”. Sure, I suppose there’s a use for loitering around in a scene and seeing if players will RP with each other. IME that generally turns into “nothing’s happened in that game for 3 days, I’m going back to Call of Duty.” Move your scenes like you were doing an episode of Law & Order. As soon as someone makes the last witty comment in a scene, just move everyone to the next scene. Keep giving your players something to do. Work on a post until you can get it to the point where, in a tabletop game, you’d be asking “what do you want to do?”
6. This is perhaps my personal hangups, but I don’t like to saddle players in tabletop OR PbP games with “helper” NPCs/GMPCs, unless those NPCs explicitly (say, due to military rank or something) are not involved in decision making. It puts the onus on the players and (hopefully) keeps them engaged, keeps them from falling back on the NPCs. The other thing you have to do, then, is to keep your OOC thread going. Don’t be afraid to infodump OOC and get the players what they need to make a decision.
7. I think what PbP does do well is immersion (as weird as that sounds). You don’t have the table banter, the weeks or months between sessions. The rate is slow but probably fairly constant, there is a clear IC and OOC split, and as GM you have ample time to plan the little details like NPC names, city details, and so on that might get joked-up or glossed over in a tabletop game.
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I realized I misspoke in my previous post:
There is no shared thrill of rolling the dice in a PbP. No table banter, no immediacy. Combat is affected most by this IMO.
As weird as this may sound, I'd put "dialogue" up there with combat as something that needs a complete overhaul of expectations and that is so very different in a PbP.
Something as simple as RPing out a conversation can take DAYS if not longer if the players aren't posting quickly or their schedules don't mesh well. What ends up happening is you end up with dueling monologues rather than normal conversation, which IMO is still vastly preferable to a normal-sounding conversation with 1-2 sentences posted every 3 days or so. It's one of the things you just have to live with unless you are lucky enough to have players who can hash out a dialogue in AIM or google Wave or in a shared google doc or IRC or something.
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By post count alone, the 11 games that have 150+ posts are:
*Redemption through Transgression-Paris (ongoing)
*A Hard Rain Falls- Seattle
*Forced to Fight- Philadelphia (ongoing)
*Tampa (2 chapters)
*Enduring the Apocalypse (ongoing)
*Dresdenized Seoul Adventure
*Newbies are Lame (Los Angeles)
*Deceptive Heat (New York)
*Upstart (London)
*Las Vegas
*The Baltimore High Horror (ongoing; technically 148 posts but close enough)
There are a couple themes just by glancing at these games (aside from GM consistency):
*Intriguing Location- none of these games take place in a boring location- they are all either bustling cities or exotic locations.
*Intriguing Plothook- Several of these games are heavily plot-driven by a unique story you won't find in most other games (FtF, EtA, tBHH, and I like to think RtT).
*Senior (knowledgeable) members- these GMs have been around this site awhile, and know how the game works- and they've played several games, usually as a variety of classes. Occasionally, we get a DnD buff who instantly jumps to GM a game- but hasn't played the system and doesn't translate it well. Extensive knowledge of the system, such as found on this board, is a necessity. As a junior member on this list, I still recognized all but 2 of these names.
An interesting thing to note those 11 games were run by 11 different GMs.
The best thing to do is TALK to those GMs specifically and try to get them to post in this thread (also get Mij on here as well):
Katarn, luminos, ZMiles, cgodfrey7 (also MijRai & Buscadera), Sanctaphrax, Bosh, Archmage_Cowl, Llayne, Vash the White, Cullen, Belial666
(strikethrough GMs have already posted)
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I've already messaged Mij. I'll contact the rest of that list in a moment.
So, do the following points seem like a good summary of this thread so far?
How To Make A Good Play-By-Post Game
1. Get a good GM. This is all-important.
2. Have realistic expectations. There are some things that PbP doesn't do well. Also, players will probably drop.
3. Keep moving. Games are like sharks: they die if they stop.
4. Run a good game. If it's a problem in real life (playstyle conflict, railroading, etc) it'll probably be a problem in PbP.
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I kind of did chime in earlier.
I'd add posting rate to the list. I'd personally say the faster the better, but that's just because I like things to move along.
More importantly the posting rate should be about the same for the whole group, that way one player isn't holding up 3 players and the entire game. This should be discussed during the recruitment phase so everybody knows what the expectations are along with the 'wait time' that is allowed before the GM will skip or NPC a character for that 'round.'
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I agree with many things already said here so I will go on with specifics in some cases rather than repeat what others said;
1) In recruitment phase, keep in mind which potential players made quality and/or long character posts. Those are more invested in their characters and tend to post more.
2) In recruitment phase, see who is making the more questions and suggestions, and generally being active. Those guys tend to be active IC too.
3) In set-up phase, never bog down the players with too much preparation (i.e. guest stars/ city creation). If it's taking too long, drop it and let them discover both the campaign and their characters through action.
4) In the set-up phase, don't worry about every minor detail. If your PCs are mostly done, have them start the game; they can fix minor stuff as they go.
5) Start the game with a strong scene that allows every character to participate but also gives them a plot hook to follow - but don't railroad. Players will follow a good plot hook but will (if subconsciously) balk on a railroad.
6) Combat should be the second or third scene, after characters had chances to interact. It should be difficult so that everyone has to participate to win and so that also everyone can show off their "cool stuff" to everyone else. It also reveals which players are going to have problems with combat, if any.
7) The "delay" action in combat solves many efficiency problems. Enemies should delay and act together so they can coordinate actions in a single initiative slot. The PCs will see it works, so they will do it themselves and thus bond as a group in combat via cooperation. In addition, by taking a single initiative slot, no player has to wait for others to post unless they specifically want to combine actions. Thus posting time per round is reduced to half, making combat TWICE as fast.
8) What applies to combat can also apply to social interaction. People take turns talking and socializing only in court and official gatherings; most times they act by grouping together because it's more effective. Also, it is faster in PbP, which is good.
9) Set a limit to how much you'll wait for players to post and stick to it. If they don't, assume they are indecisive, shell-shocked, surprised or thinking IC. NPC them ONLY if the player has notified she/he will be unable to post; if the player knows their PC will do stuff no matter what, they may forget to post or follow the game or notify for absences (which is annoying)
10) Things happen in the game world despite the players action... or inaction. Make sure the players know that - by making them lose sometimes due to indecision or inaction. If you make the cute student NPC die when PCs are slow to hunt the vampire (as would happen IRL) you can bet they'll be more interested in the future (and guilty - whatever works, you know?)
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The "delay" action in combat solves many efficiency problems. Enemies should delay and act together so they can coordinate actions in a single initiative slot. The PCs will see it works, so they will do it themselves and thus bond as a group in combat via cooperation. In addition, by taking a single initiative slot, no player has to wait for others to post unless they specifically want to combine actions. Thus posting time per round is reduced to half, making combat TWICE as fast.
This is brilliant and I am yoinking the crap out of this.
And generally yes, I agree with Sanctaphrax's summary a few posts above.
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I have played the PbP game-and ran into all the problems listed. The frustrating thing was getting to the middle of the action and having people disappear. Also, any issues or questions that came up had delayed gratification. I was very wary of getting involved in another online game.
The San Francisco game (Shaking the Foundations) has been going just under a year now. Although it is PbChat, we have lost only one player- and he went to boot camp.
For anyone unfamiliar with us, we run the game itself in another chatroom that has an archive, so all games are saved to our mediafire archive site (MIJ!), so it is sort of a cross PbChat/Post style game. If you miss a session you can catch up. Most games run between 2-4 hours IN THE CHAT. During the game we use the forum chat to roll and talk about the game and anything else just like we would sitting at a table. Real-time discussion and problem resolution is awesome.
What has really made it work FOR ME is:
1) A LOT of pre-game city and character creation. We set a couple weeks to do it officially, but for those people working on phase 5, they would "talk amongst themselves" and get the character sheet to Mij. The city creation process has really driven a lot of the game in a fun way. (The city write up is in process to be offered to the 'public'. When you see it, you'll understand!)
2) The GM. Mij is crazy organized and he lets our characters go as we play them. He is good about directing game-relevant chat back to the game window. The story goes where the characters do-but somehow we manage to be nudged in the right direction... (must ponder this)
3) Starting power level. We started chest deep. This gave our characters some excellent abilities, but nothing over-the-top. I think it has made us PLAY the characters, rather than running them (if that makes sense)- nothing is taken for granted. FATE is more of a story based game, not a character one. The characters really need to have the creation process to tie them together. It makes a HUGE difference. And as they become familiar it is fun just to watch the game.
4) Having set times. This is good and bad- but it makes it MUCH easier to plan for. The downside is that since the chat is slower than face to face (and sometimes PbP) a scene takes a while to finish, so you might not get in for a couple play nights. For those who are really busy, you can play and not miss much or hold other players up for a long time in game time.
5) Not too many players.
6) the GM.
7) the GM
8 ) players.
9) A good game system. like FATE. :D
10) cool forums to talk about the games
The only real complaint I have is that the game doesn't move fast enough for me, and we have players in 3 time zones. But that is to be expected... its a cross we must bear.
I'm sure Mij can add more insight.
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Well done folks, this thread is gold. PURE GOLD.
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Thanks, all. As Arcteryx said, this is good stuff.
Second-hand accounts make Mij sound like some kind of superman. I really hope he shows up here sometime.
Got a PM from Cullen, talking about how his game went. He had two main points:
1. Keep the momentum up.
2. Make sure the players have a clear goal at all times.
Think I might add a point to the summary about making sure that you start off on the right foot. But I'm not sure exactly what the right foot is.
In other news, EtA just adopted Belial's suggestion. It seems to be working quite well.
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I've run a lot of PBeM and play by post games over the years, the one things I have always avoided was any hint of game mechanics -
The most successful and long running ones have all had one critical aspect in common;
They have all revolved around people tell their characters stories in the style and pace they want, with other people's players turning up as 'bit parts' in the other persons plot and only with permission. (In many ways they are more 'MUSHes' than 'games')
However this way if a player drops out it does not strand others mid game. In fact 2 of these games have carried on without the ref for long periods of time when my real life got in the way and I didn't have time to supervise/ write anything.
I agree wholeheartedly. I've played in three PBeMs that have lasted years and I think one of the biggest aids is that there are no mechanics involved. By having it purely narrative, scenes that could get bogged down by mechanics stay lively and fresh throughout the scene.
I'll also echo the sentiments that the GM has to be invested because without them there is no game.
And one way the longest running one of our has lasted is by not being afraid to resurrect it. We've have two or three long breaks (primarily because the GM has gotten too busy) but eventually when schedules have settled down we're willing to give it another go.
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I feel like i should add something here, but i don't know that i really need to. Almost everything i have read here (indeed maybe everything) has been well thought out and totally has good points behind it. My play by post game ran fairly well (I would say), until technical difficulties left me without a computer for a while. Which as I was GM just kinda beat the game down badly :/ . I would say some things i have found help with the pbp games
1.) Talk to your players outside of the game to see what they like and put what interests them in. This works and is important for almost any game, pbp or not, but it is critically essential for play by posts (i feel at least) because it keeps players interested and eager to find out what happened, which keeps them coming back.
2.) (I believe this one has been mentioned) Expect to loose players. I know it's always sad when it happens but the truth of the matter is, that as a play by post game, it's likely going to happen. So i would recommend being prepared for it. The specific preparation is up to you though and there are some good examples of things that can work here already.
3.) I found that be willing to compromise helped immensely but that might just be GM-ing in general rather than specifically pbp lol :)
Hmm... thats really all i can think of right now that i haven't directly seen posted here already.
P.S. To Sanctaphrax: I Sincerely thank you for all the awesome work you have been doing around the boards. It seems like everytime i get on these boards i see something impressive you have done. So i just figured you deserve some thanks for all of the hard work you do. So Thank You :)
P. S. S. sorry to derail topic with that. lol :P
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I'm kind of intrigued by all this talk of mechanic-less games. It looks as though they work very well, given admiralducksauce's site and the testimonies here.
But I'm a pretty crunch-headed guy. I actually enjoy online white-room combat in FATE. And I've never played a game without solid rules.
So, I can't really comment on such games.
Can someone who knows them a bit better say if their requirements are any different from the requirements of a mechanically-based game?
PS: Thanks, Cowl. Don't worry about the off-topic-ness, post-scripts are easily ignored.
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I'm kind of intrigued by all this talk of mechanic-less games. It looks as though they work very well, given admiralducksauce's site and the testimonies here.
But I'm a pretty crunch-headed guy. I actually enjoy online white-room combat in FATE. And I've never played a game without solid rules.
So, I can't really comment on such games.
Can someone who knows them a bit better say if their requirements are any different from the requirements of a mechanically-based game?
Actually, DFRPG is the first roleplaying I've done with rules. There was still character creation, character progression, and stats, but any actions preformed succeeded or failed based almost entirely on OOC agreement (sometimes explicit, but mostly implicit) between the two sides, whether that was between individual players or between a player and the GM.
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Eh. It depends on your players, honestly. I played mechanic-less PbP for a long time before I got into anything with mechanics. And there's a wide range of what, exactly, that means. On the one hand you have the journal RPs, which I'd say are farther away from what PbP is from here, and then you have single-threaded forum RPs, which is basically exactly what we do here, but without as much mechanics focus, and on the third hand, you have multi-threaded forum RPs, which is basically what we have here, but each line of story is a separate thread.
From my own experience, which is limited, of course, single-threaded forum RPs can have problems keeping things clear as to what's happening where and with who. Multi-threaded forum RPs can have the problem of looking like there's not a lot going on so people don't post because not a lot's going on. Both of them can have problems with players who always think they should succeed, which is my main reason on souring on the whole mechanic-less route. This is probably more of a problem of poor admins than it is a problem of the type of game, but I prefer mechanics now.
Also, I'd say, it depends on what you're looking for in a PbP roleplay whether a mechanic-less one will suit you. Most (but I'm definitely not saying all) of the multi-threaded ones I ran into have a lot of just sitting around doing character interaction. Plot and a gripping story was not really the focus, except on rare occasions. Single-threaded PbP tended more towards the straight plot, but, without a core admin or proactive and creative players, it would devolve into traction as reactive people didn't take the story anywhere new.
As an aside, I've only actually RPed once, face-to-face, and that was in the previous year, but I've been doing tabletop online through IRC for about five or six years. Mechanic-less PbP for about five years before that. Much of my playing experience is with the fan-created Final Fantasy RPG, but I've also played a little Shadowrun and even less Fantasy Craft. I've GMed the Serenity RPG and a Cortex fantasy homebrew of my own making. Even in mechanic-less RP though, I tend towards the GM role.
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I need mechanics in any game I'm GMing. I feel otherwise you might as well just be making shit up. Yes, I do realize how backwards that sounds given the hobby. I also need to know there are mechanics present in any game I'm playing in. You don't need to post all the dice results inline (and for years I didn't, I just rolled actual physical dice on my desk because I didn't trust online rollers) but for me at least, there needs to still be a game component to the RPG, to feel that there is, I dunno, a common ground or fairness or something?
I suppose that doesn't really help you Sanctaphrax. :) I suppose I just wanted to clarify your mention of my site as a place for mechanicless games. Except for the earliest threads on there, there have been mechanics involved. It's just only a few of the most recent games have been posting results in-thread. For the longest time I used real dice because I worked from home for a long while, then switched to google Wave for its dice roller, then invisible castle, and I didn't like having to type in 4d3-8 all the damn time so I wrote my own dice roller that seeds from random.org and supports ORE dice notation as well as dFs.
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@admiralducksauce: Oops. I assumed that because I couldn't see any mechanics, there weren't any.
@Falar and Ala Alba: So, how do you decide which actions succeed and which fail? Do players sketch out the rough competence levels of their characters beforehand so that other players know what to expect? What if there's a disagreement?
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@Falar and Ala Alba: So, how do you decide which actions succeed and which fail? Do players sketch out the rough competence levels of their characters beforehand so that other players know what to expect? What if there's a disagreement?
Weeeeeeeeeeell, that's one of the reasons that I tend to shy away from mechanic-less roleplay now. When I played (and sort'f adminned), there was an unspoken rule of not contradicting another player or controlling another player's character ... so unless the player was cool with losing, then it devolved into a long run of posturing until either they got bored, somebody gave or an admin stepped in and said who won. There was a bit of admin bias to a certain clique of friends, so ... yeah ... didn't work out so well.
It's really hard to have any kind of meaningful rubric without a system of some sort and, without such a rubric, when a player and another player (or a player and an admin-controlled character/group) conflict, unless you're good at riding herd, it's really hard to get any kind of resolution. Which leads to points where an admin would have to pull out an overwhelmingly powerful force just so the players would back down. And, even then, some players wouldn't play ball and still say their character ran through a hail of crossbow bolts and decapitated the enemy commander.
Yeah. You get the picture. I don't really do plotty mechanic-less RP anymore. With the right players, I would, but I find it safer to just go with a system.
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A new idea I'm trying I don't love but I'm curious to see if it works:
I'm calling it default actions, to be used as a supplement to the aforementioned delay action. To give you some context on why I came up with this, consider the following:
*I leave for a long vacation in a week, which will be the death of my game unless I conclude the chapter before then.
*Some of my players have IRL conflicts that won't let them post at a speed that will resolve conflict that well.
As such, I'm having each of them create a default action their character will do in the event they cannot post for a combat round at all in that day/time period. Even if they aren't there, their character will contribute. For example, inciting emotion or making a GUN/WEAPON roll could be your default action. If you could not post your turn in a rotation, I would make the roll using your skill abilities. You can also specify how to use Fate Points.
EXAMPLE: Count Robespierre of the Red Court:
If a mortal being, make a addictive saliva attack.
If a magical construct, make a weapons roll.
Spend a Fate Point only when the character is in dire straits, and on defensive rolls.
It's not the best solution by far and takes a chuck of the fun out of it, but I'm curious to see if it works.
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I'm calling it default actions, to be used as a supplement to the aforementioned delay action. To give you some context on why I came up with this, consider the following:
Have you ever played FFXII or Dragon Age? It's basically like Gambits from the former or Tactics from the latter and it can be a very powerful tool. I hadn't thought of using it in an RPG environment, but it would serve to help out a lot with combat - or really with anything when the player's not there.
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@Falar: I was afraid that it would be like that.
@Katarn: Worth a shot, I suppose. But I have a bad feeling about it somehow.
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@Katarn: Worth a shot, I suppose. But I have a bad feeling about it somehow.
I feel the same way; ordinarily, I would never use it, if not for a quickly approaching deadline. I'll post the results of how well it works in this thread in a few weeks.
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@Falar: I was afraid that it would be like that.
With a bunch of mature people that don't play to win, and play for a story, it could work out really well. One of the main places where I played could have had some amazing truth and betrayal and redemption story arcs for characters, but people weren't willing for their characters to "lose", so it never could really work out.
Sigh. Ah, the Imperium.
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With a bunch of mature people that don't play to win, and play for a story, it could work out really well. One of the main places where I played could have had some amazing truth and betrayal and redemption story arcs for characters, but people weren't willing for their characters to "lose", so it never could really work out.
Sigh. Ah, the Imperium.
That's the thing with Team8Mum's game. There have been some spectacular failures but they're sometimes even created by the players when they make a better story. My character made a huge mistake, more or less ended up selling her cousin to the devil. I could never quite believe she'd been that stupid. It was tied into a huge story arc - more like two story arcs I suppose - and several years later it made perfect sense.
No mechanics, we seem to do fine without them. There's been the odd occasion when I've decided my character's going to do something utterly outrageous. She normally gets to do whatever it is but I've learned that the backlash is very rarely worth it.
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Houston game stopped when our GM moved for a different job. Haven't heard from him since so I hope all is well. It was fun while it lasted but I wish it could have run it's course.
Seoul was a lot of fun (esp the research part...always good to learn new things) and going back to look at it I'm not sure why it didn't continue. Missed my cue to do something and that possibly derailed the game (if so, my apologies). I know there was a lot of tension where the GM lived (Seoul) between N and S Korea at the time. Looks like Bosh was on back in April (now I feel all stalkerish).
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It sounds like mechaniclessness just requires a higher level of maturity.
And sometimes games die because everyone is waiting on someone else to post until the game is forgotten. At least, I think that that can happen. Maybe Seoul suffered from something like that.
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I'm pretty sure Seoul ended when Bosh disappeared without warning. I have no idea why that happened.
Sadly, I've already forgotten whether I called an end to Seattle (Hard Rain Falls), or just left it hanging. I do recall the circumstances which occurred around the time it died. One player had dropped of the face of the earth, and wasn't responding to messages or e-mails, and I was on a lengthy trip without consistent internet access. The game went on hiatus to find a replacement player, but after some time, the momentum for posting was clean gone. It was shortly after that that things ended. I was getting burned out at the time this all happened.
The GM is probably a huge factor in how long these games can last. If your Pbp game relies on a GM, you should have:
a) countermeasures in place in case the GM stops.
b) A good posting rhythm from the players.
Of course, the real key is having a bunch of players who are enthusiastic about telling the stories of their characters together. But all the other advice can help a lot.
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Wow, some great discussion in this thread. I'm not certain I have a lot to add to what's already here, but let me put in my "two cents" on some things.
First, a little bit about our group. Fyrchick covered most of this in an earlier post, so I'll just recap the highlights. We're not technically a PbP. Instead, we use two chat rooms for our sessions and play in real time.
- The first chat room (Undertown) is used for all in-character actions and discussions, and because it allows me to get transcripts of the game sessions. But it doesn't have a dice bot, so ...
- The other room (here on the forum) is for out-of-character discussion and dice rolling. I manually copy and paste the dice rolls between chat windows so they're part of the "official" record.
I put all the transcripts and other materials on a website (MediaFire) where the players can get them. Game sessions are scheduled, twice per week, and typically last between 2 and 4 hours.
Alright, onto some thoughts. First, I agree that a GM is important to a game, and that if the GM loses interest, then the game is going to have difficulty continuing. DFRPG is one of the best systems I've seen in that it encourages -- nay demands -- participation by the players in every aspect of the game, including city generation. That's a tremendous strength, and relieves the GM of some of the weight of responsibility associated with other gaming systems. However, the GM is still solely responsible for directing how the adventures are shaped within that setting. So if you're thinking of being a GM, take a moment to consider whether you're willing to put in the work required. As a side note, let me add that experience, while certainly helpful, is not a requirement for this job. Willingness, enthusiasm, and creativity (or insanity) are, in my opinion, much more important.
That said, another key ingredient in the mix is, of course, the players. I have been blessed with a group of truly amazing folks for which to GM. They have great ideas for their characters and the setting. They also make the time to be available for the game, which seems to be another commonly cited reason for games falling apart (players don’t show up).
To add a new point to the discussion, the players I currently have in my group "mesh" with my particular preference in play style, which I feel is very important. It also speaks to the current debate in this thread over game mechanics. Games such as DFRPG have two basic elements: the "roleplay" part (which I define as character interactions) and the "mechanics" part (which I define as dice rolling and rules interpretation). A successful game, in my opinion, needs to have both aspects, but the balance between them is critical, and varies with the group. Action-oriented groups are going to get bored playing too many roleplaying scenes. Roleplaying fans will get frustrated if they don’t get enough chance to explore their character. In my own games, I tend to favor roleplay, and try to use it to set up mechanics-oriented scenes. For example, having one or two characters spend a scene or two discovering the location of a nest of Ghouls (roleplay), before letting them battle the Ghouls in their lair (mechanical).
A couple notes on roleplay versus mechanical. First, roleplay for roleplay’s sake is, in my opinion, a waste regardless of the group’s preference. A roleplay scene should have a definite purpose in the plot line, or it should be left out. Second, I’m still working on getting the right balance between roleplay and mechanics as well.
The last element I wanted to comment on was the setting. I can’t emphasize this enough. Put the work in to make your setting. It doesn’t have to be absolutely finished to the last detail when you start using it (San Francisco still isn’t completely done as I write this, and my group has been playing for almost a year). But it should be a solid skeleton at least, with some meat on the bones that the GM can use to generate plot lines and scenes. And players, for heaven’s sake, be involved in the creative process. As the DFRPG manuals state, this is where you can help the GM by providing him with ideas (locations, NPCs) that will make your character more interesting and fun to play. And don’t worry that by setting this all down ahead of time, you’ll lose the spontaneity of game play. As Clausewitz said, “no campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy.” Once you start playing, things will happen that no one could have predicted, and it’ll just make the game even better.
Mij
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Interesting point about playstyle meshing, there. I don't think I've ever seen a PbP game where people actually tried to screen players for style.
So, how would one go about defining playstyle so as to avoid conflicts?
It sounds to me like Mij is a plot-focused GM.
Personally, I'm not all that interested in plot. I don't hate it, but I'm not really here to tell stories. I'm here to play games.
I'd describe myself as a challenge-focused GM. I present my players with obstacles, and they try to get past them.
What other styles are there out there?
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There'd be roleplay-focused, I suppose, where one feels is IS okay to roleplay for RP's sake, to meander through the PbP with character interactions and introspections and puppeted encounters with NPCs.
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There'd be roleplay-focused, I suppose, where one feels is IS okay to roleplay for RP's sake, to meander through the PbP with character interactions and introspections and puppeted encounters with NPCs.
Notice that this is definitely NOT what Mij is saying. Even in his roleplay-focused group (which I have spied on once or twice), they do not spend a lot of time (or much at all, really) on navel-gazing, nothing goes anywhere type of "roleplaying". Every scene matters, its just not necessarily a mechanics intensive form of mattering.
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Hey, it's okay. :) I wasn't saying Mij's game was that. He expressly said he edits out wasteful roleplay for RP's sake (a move I heartily endorse what with limited free time all around). I was just suggesting (as per Sanctaphrax's question) that there are people who DO like RP for RP regardless of plot or challenge.