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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Michael Sandy on June 03, 2011, 10:14:35 PM
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So you have this wizard who can craft items with 8 shifts of power.
He makes a 'lightsaber' that is a 4 shift weapon, always on.
He then uses what skill to attack with it? Weapons? Discipline? The characters offensive Spirit control?
If he uses Discipline or Spirit control skill to attack with it, can he also use that skill to defend with in melee?
How about a stunt similar to the 2 seconds in the future stunt in the OW books to allow the Spirit control skill to be used in the place of dodge? "I am parrying bullets with my lightsaber"
Yeah, I saw the Mythbusters episode, human reflexes aren't anywhere near fast enough to intercept bullets.
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I think at this point you're stretching/abusing what the enchanted item rules are supposed to allow.
In general, the enchanted items rules don't do 'always on' effects (I think they did in the beta PDF but those rules got nixed in the final release).
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Firstly: there is no longer any such thing as an always on item.
Like EdgeOfDreams already said, always on items are a remnant from the Early Bird PDF's.
That makes the question of defense more or less moot. Since the Energy blade only exists for Attack purposes for a short moment, there is no way to defend with it.
What Skill: you define the Skill used when creating the Item. A Magical Gun could use Guns to aim, a sword Weapons, a wand with charges of fireballs in it could be using Discipline.
Extending on the Defense question: I would allow such a weapon, that is a physical handle with an energy blade extending from it, to be used for defense, but only is the user has already attacked with the weapon in the current round or expends a charge to defend, which would then allow him to attack if his initiative is still to come. Basically you can only defend if you expend a charge in the current round.
The Skill to be used for defense would be Weapons. Unless you have a stunt that says otherwise.
If you make a physical blade that is magically enhanced, the defense issue disappears. It could be used for defense like any other blade.
I made a stunt like that once
Its was something like
-1 Master Parry (Weapons) You can use Weapons to defend against ranged attacks that could be conceivably be stopped by a melee weapon. Things like bullets, Arrows or other small-enough items. No defense against Energy Attacks or things like Thrown Cars or similar things.
You can easily replace the Weapons skill with anything you like for this stunt.
Nobody cares about Mythbusters here when it comes to stunts :-)
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The item you are trying to make should probably be an IoP, not an enchanted item. For parrying bullets, your IoP might have an ability that allows you to use Weapons to 'dodge' gunfire, rather than Athletics. Of course, you'd need to come up with a story for how you came by such an item, and how the item works. The Jedi techniques that make such abilities work in Star Wars might well be Law-breaking in DFRPG (ie, sensing the future in order to block incoming attacks).
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IoP
Lightsaber[-1]
Obvious IoP+2
Cut Through Anything: Weapon 4, conceivably cut through any thing other than another Lightsaber.-1
Parry Anything: Can defend against any attack using Weapons. Includes Riposte stunt, able to be used on energy attacks parried with weapons.-2
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My build would be something like this:
It is what it is: weapon 4 melee, strength doesn't count.
+1 rebate
-1 Parry Everything (Weapons Footwork)
-1 Armour Penentration (Ignore two points of armour)
-5 Lethal Reflective Damage Shield (See either custom powers thread)
Total cost -6
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Weapon:4 that can be used 5 times per adventure. Then a second item that is, say, Block 6, 3 times per encounter. If you want more uses, you can always take 1 mental stress...or put a few more slots into additional uses and duration for the block.
-EF
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IoP
Lightsaber[-1]
Obvious IoP+2
Cut Through Anything: Weapon 4, conceivably cut through any thing other than another Lightsaber.-1
Parry Anything: Can defend against any attack using Weapons. Includes Riposte stunt, able to be used on energy attacks parried with weapons.-2
This one looks promising. Since normally it is one refresh for +2 damage or +1 to hit, what is "cut through anything" besides being +1 to damage over 'it is what it is' Weapon 3 IoPs?
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This one looks promising. Since normally it is one refresh for +2 damage or +1 to hit, what is "cut through anything" besides being +1 to damage over 'it is what it is' Weapon 3 IoPs?
A one handed sword would be Weapon 2, so the Weapon 4 would be +2 damage.
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My build would be something like this:
It is what it is: weapon 4 melee, strength doesn't count.
+1 rebate
-1 Parry Everything (Weapons Footwork)
-1 Armour Penetration Be (Ignore two points of armour)
-5 Lethal Reflective Damage Shield (See either custom powers thread)
Total cost -6
I prefer Sanctaphrax's write-up. I really dislike the idea of an Enchanted Item (specifically for a long-term battle against a lot of enemies). Being a Jedi/Sith/Force User would typically be beyond Submerged (with force powers and such), and the net refresh isn't ridiculous, but expensive enough to make sense.
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I'd be inclined to let it be weapon 4 for 0 refresh. You can get a weapon 4 mundane gun, after all. So a weapon 4 mundane lightsaber isn't unreasonable. (This assumes that Strength bonuses don't apply.)
PS: @Katarn: What does the code-like-thing in your signature mean?
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@Sactaphrax - Dresden Files Geek Code
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20198.0.html
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Thank you very much.
Wish there was something between DVRPG++++ and DVRPG+++++ for me. (Also, why is it DVRPG instead of DFRPG?)
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I am guessing either
a) typographical error on knn's part.
b) possibly stands for Dresden Verse Roleplaying Game
I am leaning towards the former myself, but it could be the latter just as easily.
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I'm not sure about the zero strength bonus to weapons with lightsabers most of the Extended Universe stuff implies stronger lightsaber wielders are harder to fight for a given value of hard and lightsaber is still a fulcrum of force. There are several examples of Jedi's basing thier whole fighting style on their strength the obvious example being Darth Vader. Darth Vader used the strength of his strikes to make up for his lack of manoeuvrability in his tank like suit by just overpowering his enemies defences. So at the very least lightsaber fighting should gain some advantage from strength though perhaps this would be better shown by allowing might modification of lightsaber weaponry rolls than actually adding the damage rating.
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Okay then, weapon 3 + Strength might be better.
I've seen the movies, but that's it for me and Star Wars. So I've got to bow to your superior knowledge.
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I am guessing either
a) typographical error on knn's part.
b) possibly stands for Dresden Verse Roleplaying Game
I am leaning towards the former myself, but it could be the latter just as easily.
I agree, someone should ask him....
I'm not sure about the zero strength bonus to weapons with lightsabers most of the Extended Universe stuff implies stronger lightsaber wielders are harder to fight for a given value of hard and lightsaber is still a fulcrum of force. There are several examples of Jedi's basing thier whole fighting style on their strength the obvious example being Darth Vader. Darth Vader used the strength of his strikes to make up for his lack of manoeuvrability in his tank like suit by just overpowering his enemies defences. So at the very least lightsaber fighting should gain some advantage from strength though perhaps this would be better shown by allowing might modification of lightsaber weaponry rolls than actually adding the damage rating.
This is a good point- but normal swords don't account for this either (I think, really tired). I would re-allocate that modifier into Weapons Roll, or possibly Might.
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I don't see how strength would figure into basic lightsaber dueling; it's largely agility and precognition. When your lightsaber cuts through armor, flesh, and bone like butter to begin with, pouring on the strength would be like pouring on the strength ... when cutting butter.
I'd say that strength might well play a role in powering through blocks made by another lightsaber. So when one duelist puts up a block, then various strength-related bonuses might come into play if the attacker wants to simply power through the block.
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What lightsabers can do? (the powers inherent in the item itself)
1) Can deal considerable damage - higher than most melee and ranged personal weaponry.
2) Can cut through most armor.
3) Can be easily concealed.
4) Physical objects parried are destroyed - energy attacks are deflected.
How do force-users use lightsabers? (the powers available to the force-user, not the weapon itself)
1) Parry normally unparriable attacks and redirect them through precognitive defense. Still can't use it vs area attacks such as explosions, grenades and flamethrowers.
2) Exceptional accuracy.
3) Throwing and other exceptional maneuvers (such as TK combat).
Given the above, here are some stats;
[-1] Lightsaber
It is What It Is: weapon 3 energy weapon
Small IoP rebate (+1)
Crystal Focus: lightsabers use force-crystals to focus their beams. +1 weapon rating and armor penetration 1. (-1)
Destructive Parry: objects parried by lightsabers take stress based on the lightsaber's damage. Energy attacks are simply deflected.
This ability says what happens when the lightsaber parries - what it can actually parry is up to the user's skill. (-1)
[-8] Jedi Template
Inhuman Speed
Inhuman Toughness
Inhuman Recovery
The Catch: rare natural poisons and electric shock (+3)
Force Telekinesis: may perform physical maneuvers and blocks at range at Conviction+2.
Some Jedi start with Incite Emotion At Range instead of Force Telekinesis. They still use Conviction.
Lightsaber Defense: +1 to dodge when wielding a lightsaber and may parry targeted ranged attacks.
True Aim
Echoes of the Force: may sense emotions with Alertness rather than reading with
Empathy. Danger Sense; use initiative modifier rather than base Alertness vs ambushes.
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Just my .02, I think a lightsaber would have to be at least a weapon 6.
A lightsaber can cut through a solid steel door with barely any effort at all. A .50 cal (weapon 4) would have a hard time making a hole in a 3 inch thick, solid steel door.
Also, strength /would/ play a part in lightsaber duels. This was a trade off for Jedi who chose to use a two weapon style instead of one two handed lightsaber.
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Just my .02, I think a lightsaber would have to be at least a weapon 6.
A lightsaber can cut through a solid steel door with barely any effort at all. A .50 cal (weapon 4) would have a hard time making a hole in a 3 inch thick, solid steel door.
Also, strength /would/ play a part in lightsaber duels. This was a trade off for Jedi who chose to use a two weapon style instead of one two handed lightsaber.
In the duel, but not in how much damage the lightsaber does. Strength would be used to break a block, not to increase the amount of damage you'd do.
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Strength would come into play when dueling *other* lightsaber-wielding opponents, if nothing else. When both weapons can be used as levers against the wielder, Might comes back into relative importance.
In the duel, but not in how much damage the lightsaber does. Strength would be used to break a block, not to increase the amount of damage you'd do.
Exactly!
That said, dueling Might and overall Might may comprise thematically similar but ultimately different things. And after a certain point, we are trading the granularity of the FATE system for another combat-focused ruleset.
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@BumblingBear;
A steel door has a border value of +6, can't dodge and, barring special attacks that can damage such barriers, you must use "might" to break it. A .50 cal bullet cannot use the shooter's "guns" skill against the door as it is not a weapon that can be used to break such barriers. Being only weapon 4, it can't do squat to destroy it; it just makes a tiny hole at best. A lightsaber IS capable of working against objects. The Jedi uses his weapons skill of +6 (superb+true aim) plus the lightsaber's weapon rating of 4 and AP rating of 1 vs the door's dodge of +0 and border value of +6. The steel door is toast in a single blow.
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I am going to have to side with Bumbling Bear hear lightsabers have been shown to cut through several meters worth of unamed superalloy for example cutting through security doors on a star destroyer and even cutting through ship hull material, considering blaster bolt just pinged off these doors in the fiction a Weapons 4 bazooka would probably do nothing but scorch the door and possibly leave a dent and anything at weapons 3 or under would have no effected what so ever (other than possible death by richoche). Though I have to admit this may be more due to the fact that lightsabers are a very effective welding torch than because they are effective weapons, pretty much any physical barrier can be cut with a lightsaber with enough time other than barriers made specially made with cortosis a super expensive super rare material.
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I am going to have to side with Bumbling Bear hear lightsabers have been shown to cut through several meters worth of unamed superalloy for example cutting through security doors on a star destroyer and even cutting through ship hull material, considering blaster bolt just pinged off these doors in the fiction a Weapons 4 bazooka would probably do nothing but scorch the door and possibly leave a dent and anything at weapons 3 or under would have no effected what so ever (other than possible death by richoche). Though I have to admit this may be more due to the fact that lightsabers are a very effective welding torch than because they are effective weapons, pretty much any physical barrier can be cut with a lightsaber with enough time other than barriers made specially made with cortosis a super expensive super rare material.
Even then, Luke was able to cut through a cortosis-lined cave wall in a matter of hours, with Mara looking on in awe. For lightsabers, it's just a matter of time when the barrier is cut through.
Another thing to keep in mind is that blaster bolts only ping off of doors that are magnetically sealed (EpV, trash compactor). All other instances of blaster fire meeting walls had the wall absorb the bolt and nothing more.
-EF
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Jedi shouldn't have recovery or toughness.
They should have ritual biomancy. Also channeling spirit with excuses to use lightning as well as Tk effects.
Hibernation Trance
Sleeping powers
Poison powers
healing powers
all biomancy.
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Just my .02, I think a lightsaber would have to be at least a weapon 6.
A lightsaber can cut through a solid steel door with barely any effort at all. A .50 cal (weapon 4) would have a hard time making a hole in a 3 inch thick, solid steel door.
Also, strength /would/ play a part in lightsaber duels. This was a trade off for Jedi who chose to use a two weapon style instead of one two handed lightsaber.
bingo!
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in the dresdenverse Jedi are lawbreakers, power-wise.
i would give the sword stacking Claw for more damage,
Give the user supernatural speed when using the lightsaber, on top of his already inhuman speed, which would cost -2 on the sword by putting a prereq, you can't use it unless you have at least inhuman speed.
non jedi would cut their faces off with ls.
Easy to conceal? that sounds like a veil to me, or some sort of glamour. That would be a -2 for a small one, however there should not be any roll since its on/off. How about you put 2 points for a -1 for a +4 to stealth? its not defensive or offensive and very specific.
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Easy to conceal? that sounds like a veil to me, or some sort of glamour. That would be a -2 for a small one, however there should not be any roll since its on/off. How about you put 2 points for a -1 for a +4 to stealth? its not defensive or offensive and very specific.
Honestly, I'd just give the deactivated 'hilt' of a Lightsaber it the same roll to conceal as a pistol or a collapsed ASP baton, whatever that might be, and be done with it.
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Honestly, I'd just give the deactivated 'hilt' of a Lightsaber it the same roll to conceal as a pistol or a collapsed ASP baton, whatever that might be, and be done with it.
Me too.
I'm actually thinking about statting a Jedi now and all of his/her gear. I think a Jedi would be a fairly high refresh character too.
I don't know how comfortable I am with making a lightsaber an item of power, though.
A lightsaber is just a piece of machinery. It's a weapon that anyone can use - not just a Jedi.
In fact, some Jedi/Sith used swords instead of lightsabers because they liked the feeling of blade hitting flesh.
So.... that's something I am hung up on.
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Me too.
I'm actually thinking about statting a Jedi now and all of his/her gear. I think a Jedi would be a fairly high refresh character too.
I don't know how comfortable I am with making a lightsaber an item of power, though.
A lightsaber is just a piece of machinery. It's a weapon that anyone can use - not just a Jedi.
In fact, some Jedi/Sith used swords instead of lightsabers because they liked the feeling of blade hitting flesh.
So.... that's something I am hung up on.
Well, we've seen several Lightsabers get destroyed, and quite casually, so they're not Indestructible. They're also not too uncommon either, really.
Somehow letting them have a W:6 blade just as a free piece of Equipment just seems wrong, though.
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Well, we've seen several Lightsabers get destroyed, and quite casually, so they're not Indestructible. They're also not too uncommon either, really.
Somehow letting them have a W:6 blade just as a free piece of Equipment just seems wrong, though.
Well, when you consider that they hail from a future where there are space stations that can blow up planets, I don't think it's too bad.
It's also a melee weapon - not ranged.
Plus, the fact that a weapon of that power in /this/ world would be a big deal could be a huge plot hook too. Everyone would want to get their hands on it.
But consider, a ghoul has a weapon:6 with strength and claws. A Jedi (depending on race) would probably not have any kind of strength powers. That means a lightsaber would be about the same weapon rating as a ghoul without weapons.
When put that way, it actually almost seems a bit weak!
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Additionally, a Jedi doesn't stop being a Jedi without a lightsaber.
This is another reason I think the Lightsaber should be equipment rather than anything that causes refresh.
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Well, when you consider that they hail from a future where there are space stations that can blow up planets, I don't think it's too bad.
It's also a melee weapon - not ranged.
Plus, the fact that a weapon of that power in /this/ world would be a big deal could be a huge plot hook too. Everyone would want to get their hands on it.
But consider, a ghoul has a weapon:6 with strength and claws. A Jedi (depending on race) would probably not have any kind of strength powers. That means a lightsaber would be about the same weapon rating as a ghoul without weapons.
When put that way, it actually almost seems a bit weak!
Additionally, a Jedi doesn't stop being a Jedi without a lightsaber.
This is another reason I think the Lightsaber should be equipment rather than anything that causes refresh.
Points well made. Sounds like Lightsaber as W:6 Equipment that's hellaciously difficult to replace (if in the Dresdenverse) would work just dandy, then.
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Well, when you consider that they hail from a future where there are space stations that can blow up planets, I don't think it's too bad.
It's also a melee weapon - not ranged.
Plus, the fact that a weapon of that power in /this/ world would be a big deal could be a huge plot hook too. Everyone would want to get their hands on it.
But consider, a ghoul has a weapon:6 with strength and claws. A Jedi (depending on race) would probably not have any kind of strength powers. That means a lightsaber would be about the same weapon rating as a ghoul without weapons.
When put that way, it actually almost seems a bit weak!
Additionally, a Jedi doesn't stop being a Jedi without a lightsaber.
This is another reason I think the Lightsaber should be equipment rather than anything that causes refresh.
Seconded on the points well made. However, I think that comparing a lightsaber to a ghoul with Strength and Claws isn't a fair comparison, because the ghoul has spent 5 refresh to get to the point where his claws are Weapon:6, while the Jedi gets a Weapon:6 lightsaber free of charge and can spend that same 5 refresh on, say, Inhuman Speed and Evocation, putting him way ahead of the ghoul in terms of power, even considering the ghoul's grappling and lifting/breaking bonuses. It may not be overpowered in a future with giant lasers, but we're talking about lightsabers in the Dresdenverse here. I agree that it shouldn't cost refresh ala an IoP, but I don't think it should be free equipment.
I think that paying for lightsabers with focus item slots is the ideal solution, because Jedi are going to have those spellcasting powers anyways to represent the Force, and the fluff doesn't really support Jedi using focus items the way Dresdenverse wizards do. So what to do with those unused focus slots? Substitute a build-your-own lightsaber system! Start it at Weapon:3 (well within the normal range for free equipment), and let the Jedi spend focus slots to improve the Weapon rating by +1 each (or some sort of scaling system, whatever's balanced). Maybe allow alternatives like +1 to weapon skill for one defense each round.
This would mean that lightsabers would be pretty firmly tied to the Jedi template, which fits the fluff that only Jedi have the mind-body awareness needed to truly utilize a lightsaber's potential without cutting an arm off. It would also tie each individual Jedi to his lightsaber, which also fits the fluff.
Now I'm tempted to actually come up with a Jedi template. Hmmmm ...
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Meh... although a Jedi would not have to spend refresh to have/use a lightsaber, they probably would in order to make one or use it effectively.
Keep in mind that while a normal person can use a lightsaber, they cannot weild it effectively. Nor do they know how to make one. All Jedi make their own lightsaber.
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Do we want to include the customization options which we have seen in some of the games (KOTOR) and probably the fiction?
Perhaps Jedi should have their own Craft (Lightsaber) ability which is either:
A) a Skill that they roll (so their invention would be handled like any other Craftsmanship project),
and/or
B) Refresh spent on Focus Item slots, so that Jedi can, if desired, spend Refresh to add qualities to their weapon
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For some reason this thread makes me want to run/play in a fate-based Star Wars game.
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Personally, I would call a lightsaber a Weapon:5 that can be used with Weapons. Full stop, end of story.
However, if a Jedi wants to use the lightsaber for more than hacking and slashing, they're going to need Supernatural powers. Note that since they're powers, they don't get the +2 refresh for being pure mortal. Let's face it, Jedi can do things no mortal can.
Sample Powers:
Lightsaber Combat [-2]: When using a lightsaber, you get a +1 bonus on all rolls, and deal +1 stress. In addition, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against ranged attacks, but not area attacks.
Lightsaber Deflection [-1]: If you successfully defend against an energy-based attack with your lightsaber, you may sacrifice your next turn's action to turn the defense roll into a successful attack against any target within range. If you spend a Fate Point, you do not sacrifice your next turn's action.
The first one is pretty self-explanatory. It's the classic Jedi Defense power. The second one is nothing more than the Repost Stunt found on page YS156 under Weapons. I added the Fate Point expenditure for those times when the Jedi really wants to be that B.A. Besides, powers are stunts with perhaps a bit more oomph, right?
Also, Strength and Speed powers might be appropriate.
-EF
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I'd stick with calling a lightsaber an "IoP" just because a basic weapon doesn't give enough room for uniqueness in DFRPG. How about something like this?
Lightsaber (-whatever)
(+2) Discount Already Applied.
(-1) Marked as a Jedi. You carry the weapon of a Jedi, and those who see it will believe you to be one. This can be either good or bad (see Marked By Power).
(-1) It’s a Beam Of Focused Energy. A lightsaber takes the form of a handle that, when activates, emits an intense beam of focused energy. It inflicts weapon:4 damage on anything it touches, regardless of the force (or lack thereof) behind the blow. Strength and other similar powers do not increase the damage dealt by a lightsaber, though they can be used to overcome an opponent's lightsaber block. [Note that the 'it is what it is' power usually costs nothing; in this case the entire weapon is special. Assume this is the equivalent of a 1-h weapon (w:2) +2 stress (-1 refresh).]
(-?) Cuts Through Anything. Lightsabers ignore all sorts of physical armor, including equipment, Toughness powers, etc. Only force fields, other lightsabers, and certain rare, specially prepared materials can block one.
(-0) Disciplined Fighting Style. Lightsabers require specialized training to use effectively, and can be deadly to those who use them without the proper training and focus. Fighting with a Lightsaber uses Weapons restricted by and modified by the "Lightsaber Dueling" trapping of Discipline.
Then create the following stunt:
Lightsaber Dueling: You are trained in the effective use of lightsabers (this is a new skill trapping; most people can’t handle lightsabers without training). You may use your Weapons (modified and restricted by Discipline) to attack, parry, create blocks, and perform maneuvers with a lightsaber.
Lightsaber Defense: Your lightsaber training is such that you may parry or block attacks that would be impossible for someone wielding a mundane melee weapon. You may block ranged physical and energy-based attacks when wielding a lightsaber. You must already have the Lightsaber Dueling stunt to learn this stunt, and parries or blocks with this stunt are performed as described in Lightsaber Dueling.
Add additional powers and stunts (probably including ones like Eldritch mentioned) to round out lightsaber combat and add in more general Jedi powers.
Or something like that.
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If don't think there is ever going to be a ligitmate reason to use tradition lightsaber in the DF setting, the closest you would likely get is a flaming sword of eldrict power or the giant style sword of a troll king.
But if you are using DFRP mechanics in a star wars setting I believe a lightsaber would just be a weapons 5 standard weapons which can also be used like a welding torch etc to do composite damage over time to barriers.
To use a lightsaber you would either need a force awareness power or a stunt showing your years of grueling training.
Force Awareness: [-2]: You can feel the living force, and sense, treat as a Supernatural Sense, you can detect force energy, emotions, and other force relating things. [Pre-req power for force powers and advance lightsaber training]
As for item of Power this is a power I am stealing from a fate star wars rip
[-2] Weapon of Destiny: +1 to weapons rolls with your personal weapon, if your weapon is lost it will either eventually show up, you can spend a fate point for expediant recovery of your weapon, or if it is destroyed you can craft a like for like replacement with a small amount of time with the parts avaliable. (this takes a long scene).
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This is why no one is willing to tackle a new Star Wars RPG...too many fans have their own vision on how the setting works. And not a single one of them is wrong!
Star Wars is best done as a home-brew, IMO.
-EF
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Personally, I would call a lightsaber a Weapon:5 that can be used with Weapons. Full stop, end of story.
However, if a Jedi wants to use the lightsaber for more than hacking and slashing, they're going to need Supernatural powers. Note that since they're powers, they don't get the +2 refresh for being pure mortal. Let's face it, Jedi can do things no mortal can.
Sample Powers:
Lightsaber Combat [-2]: When using a lightsaber, you get a +1 bonus on all rolls, and deal +1 stress. In addition, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against ranged attacks, but not area attacks.
Lightsaber Deflection [-1]: If you successfully defend against an energy-based attack with your lightsaber, you may sacrifice your next turn's action to turn the defense roll into a successful attack against any target within range. If you spend a Fate Point, you do not sacrifice your next turn's action.
The first one is pretty self-explanatory. It's the classic Jedi Defense power. The second one is nothing more than the Repost Stunt found on page YS156 under Weapons. I added the Fate Point expenditure for those times when the Jedi really wants to be that B.A. Besides, powers are stunts with perhaps a bit more oomph, right?
Also, Strength and Speed powers might be appropriate.
-EF
I like this!
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Already knee deep in a Star Wars Fate game. Lightsabers work just fine for us as Weapon:2, ignore Armor:2
Blasters are Weapon:2 or 3, and (contrary to the movies and tropes) stormtrooper armor is Armor:2. Blast vests are Armor:1
Remember Qui-Gon took a long time to cut through a blast door besides probably using the Force to block the radiating heat from the molten alloy.
Weapon rating is how intrusive/effective the Weapon is on one's stress track. You don't want to get shot by a .357, blaster, stabbed by a gladius, OR carved by a lightsaber.
However, that stormtrooper armor will be great against everything except the lightsaber...
Seriously, from a gameply aspect if I had lightsabers at some ridiculous Weapon value like 4, 5, or 6 they would be way too overpowered. Lightsabers are not battlefield weaponry...
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Bent a friend's ear about his current Star Wars FATE game, and they are counting Lightsabers as equipment (no Refresh) but are charging Refresh for the training to use them properly. Didn't ask what weapon value they used.
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Seriously, from a gameply aspect if I had lightsabers at some ridiculous Weapon value like 4, 5, or 6 they would be way too overpowered. Lightsabers are not battlefield weaponry...
I hate to be purely argumentative but yes they are in all senses of the word, they are weapons used on the battlefield and they are also anti-material weapons that can carve through tank armour in a round (the walkers armour) something no weapons 2 weapons could do.
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Bent a friend's ear about his current Star Wars FATE game, and they are counting Lightsabers as equipment (no Refresh) but are charging Refresh for the training to use them properly. Didn't ask what weapon value they used.
Good point. The stats I posted are no refresh/equipment lightsabers. All manner of Force powers are necessary for deflecting/redirecting shots, dealing with radiating heat, or learning an advanced lightsaber form.
For me the whole "lightsaber cuts through metal like butter" falls apart when Luke gets a tag in on Vader's arm in ESB. He had the opening and swung hard. Lo, the arm remained attached...
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I hate to be purely argumentative but yes they are in all senses of the word, they are weapons used on the battlefield and they are also anti-material weapons that can carve through tank armour in a round (the walkers armour) something no weapons 2 weapons could do.
That was some kind of access panel he cut open on the ATAT. Lightsabers don't carve through anything thick enough in one round. It took Qui-Gonn far too long to work though a door...he didn't even get to finish. He had to very deliberately carve through the blast door exerting both his will and physical Might. Luke, on the other hand, hit a weak spot of some kind. Hell, there's even a discharge of some kind when he gets the opening for the grenade...and that discharge sure doesn't look like molten steel but electrical...like an access panel.
By "battlefield weaponry" I was going by the dfrpg weapon rating where I'm fairly certain their intent was weapon:4 for grenades, rpgs, artillery...i.e, not something PCs should just have available on a whim.
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A lightsaber is at LEAST a weapon 5.
Considering that a large solid steel pudao meant to be used by a character with inhuman strength is a weapon:4, a lightsaber would have to be higher than that.
I've read every single book in the Star Wars Universe up until they killed off Jacen Solo (bastards).
The point is, a lightsaber CAN cut through armor plating. They do so multiple times.
Also- for those of you who have not read any books, remember in Return of the Jedi when Luke cuts through the front of a speeder bike with his lightsaber? Uh huh
I personally would stat a lightsaber at Weapon: 6 and ignoring 2 shifts of armor.
A lightsaber can cut through an I-beam in one exchange.
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I've read every single book in the Star Wars Universe up until they killed off Jacen Solo (bastards).
The point is, a lightsaber CAN cut through armor plating. They do so multiple times.
Yes, but not quickly.
Also- for those of you who have not read any books, remember in Return of the Jedi when Luke cuts through the front of a speeder bike with his lightsaber? Uh huh
Those are rather skinny struts, not I-beams...
A lightsaber can cut through an I-beam in one exchange.
When? And in what context that fairly contradicts Qui-Gonn's difficulty with a blast door? I mean, I know Star Wars has sitting ducks in it, but I wasn't aware they had I-beams too...
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Yes, but not quickly.
Those are rather skinny struts, not I-beams...
When? And in what context that fairly contradicts Qui-Gonn's difficulty with a blast door? I mean, I know Star Wars has sitting ducks in it, but I wasn't aware they had I-beams too...
I don't consider episode I-III canon.
And in several books, Luke cut through a meter of solid rock like nothing.
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I don't consider episode I-III canon.
And in several books, Luke cut through a meter of solid rock like nothing.
Unfortunately, as much as we dislike them, the stuff that ended up on the screen is the definition of canon, while all the books have been treated basically like fanfic by Lucas, who - as I am told - picked and chose what he liked and contradicted the rest without any real consideration.
I suspect that if we ask 8 Star Wars fans how a given element of the setting works, we'll get 9 opinions.
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Unfortunately, as much as we dislike them, the stuff that ended up on the screen is the definition of canon, while all the books have been treated basically like fanfic by Lucas, who - as I am told - picked and chose what he liked and contradicted the rest without any real consideration.
I suspect that if we ask 8 Star Wars fans how a given element of the setting works, we'll get 9 opinions.
True.
But another thing to consider is that older lightsabers were less powerful and less energy efficient.
In the days of the Old Republic - at the dawn of it, ligthsabers requires a cable between the weapon and a powerpack worn on the belt.
It was actually the Sith that modernized lightsabers and put a power source in the hilt itself.
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I don't consider episode I-III canon.
And in several books, Luke cut through a meter of solid rock like nothing.
Ah, a severe disconnect we have there. Don't let meta plot weaknesses overrule evidence. It's pretty absurd your rebuttal of Qui-Gonn's difficulty is rooted in a) problems with a movie's quality and b) acceptance of some hack writer's "look at the cool scene I wrote" that reached a far smaller audience than said movie.
Well, all I can speak to on a reasonable level then is gameplay and balance. Lightsabers in my fate game are equipment like a blaster, so I have to balance in that regard.
Considering that in fate any physically dynamic pc is going to have an Endurance of +3 for 3 stress boxes or +5 for 4 stress boxes. Try running a game where a zero-shift connect is an auto-consequence...very broken.
It is ridiculous to me that a zero-shift connect with a lightsaber MUST result in a consequence or taken out result instead of just physical stress
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Ah, a severe disconnect we have there. Don't let meta plot weaknesses overrule evidence. It's pretty absurd your rebuttal of Qui-Gonn's difficulty is rooted in a) problems with a movie's quality and b) acceptance of some hack writer's "look at the cool scene I wrote" that reached a far smaller audience than said movie.
You mean unlike a hack, washed up director's CGI wetdream?
I find it pretty obvious that you haven't read any of the novels. There're about 100 of them now.
I will leave it at that instead of responding with the level of antagonism in your reply.
Well, all I can speak to on a reasonable level then is gameplay and balance. Lightsabers in my fate game are equipment like a blaster, so I have to balance in that regard.
So? Are you playing a 4 refresh game or something? A weapon: 6 is really not that big of a deal at submerged or above.
Considering that in fate any physically dynamic pc is going to have an Endurance of +3 for 3 stress boxes or +5 for 4 stress boxes. Try running a game where a zero-shift connect is an auto-consequence...very broken.
Have you actually played DFRPG yet? I mean that seriously - not in a snarky way.
Wizards at submerged level can fairly easily make a 10 shift evocation with 10 control.
I have a player with a physical stress track 10 boxes long.
It is ridiculous to me that a zero-shift connect with a lightsaber MUST result in a consequence or taken out result instead of just physical stress
My Scion of Tyr character has a 7 shift weapon while wielding a common, everyday sword.
A Jedi, if the force is considered channeling, cannot min/max combat stats and has to have discipline and conviction.
As both a fairly knowledgeable Dresden Files player/GM, and a Star Wars fan... I think you're mistaken. :)
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The cutting power of lightsabers varies widely, even from scene to scene within a given source. For example, in episode IV, when Obi-Wan faces Darth Vader, Vader's lightsaber quite clearly fails to cut Obi-Wan's robe. And some of the books I've read have had jedi facing robots that die in one hit, and then robots that are so heavily armored that a lightsaber is "useless". Seriously.
As such, I'd tend to say a lightsaber is an Item of Power. You have to have an aspect ("My Father's Lightsaber" or "A More Civilized Weapon" or whatever). It counts as weapon: 4, and has the sword of the cross' "all creatures are equal before god" ability. So it quite literally runs at the power of plot; if you've got a fate point to spare, it's an unstoppable weapon that cuts through whatever is in your path. No fate point? I'm sorry, that heavily armored blast door is just a bit too tough to cut through before the enemy reinforcements show up.
As for it being "not a big deal at submerged or above" - keep in mind here that DFRPG is a higher powered setting than star wars. A star wars jedi typically has inhuman speed, channeling, a lightsaber, guide my hand, and perhaps a few stunts. That's less refresh spent than a starting wizard. Even the big villains of the movies only added a little bit on top of that, upping channeling to evocation, and possibly picking up a few incite emotion based powers.
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As for it being "not a big deal at submerged or above" - keep in mind here that DFRPG is a higher powered setting than star wars. A star wars jedi typically has inhuman speed, channeling, a lightsaber, guide my hand, and perhaps a few stunts. That's less refresh spent than a starting wizard. Even the big villains of the movies only added a little bit on top of that, upping channeling to evocation, and possibly picking up a few incite emotion based powers.
Again I would have to disagree on this there a several examples of Jedi and Sith fighting 1000s of opponents (mostly in the Old Republic), there is Darth Nihlus who can eat all the life in an entire planet and Exar Kun who used force push to cause a supernova.
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Again I would have to disagree on this there a several examples of Jedi and Sith fighting 1000s of opponents (mostly in the Old Republic), there is Darth Nihlus who can eat all the life in an entire planet and Exar Kun who used force push to cause a supernova.
And I disagree with you. Those are plot device level characters, not playable characters. Or otherwise characters temporarily exceeding their refresh during plot device level events.
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This argument both bores and irritates me. It just seems so pointless.
So, Michael Sandy, have you decided what interpretation you're going with?
Or have you given up?
Or have we all missed the point completely?
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Mostly I was looking for reasonable options that didn't involve abusing the crafting rules.
Something like weapon 4, a stunt to use weapon skill to block ranged weapons. The 'cut through anything' could just be a refresh or two spent on bonuses for breaking inanimate objects. That and allow weapons and tools designed to cut through things to accumulate 'navel gazing maneuvers' that simulate slowly cutting through things that have a higher defense value than the weapon could breach normally.
I am quite happy with the discussion, even if the result is never actually used in a campaign I am in.
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Hm. Okay.
Sounds good to me.
And if the argument's fine by you, then I guess I shouldn't complain.
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Good point. The stats I posted are no refresh/equipment lightsabers. All manner of Force powers are necessary for deflecting/redirecting shots, dealing with radiating heat, or learning an advanced lightsaber form.
For me the whole "lightsaber cuts through metal like butter" falls apart when Luke gets a tag in on Vader's arm in ESB. He had the opening and swung hard. Lo, the arm remained attached...
In every star wars system jedi can absorb/dissipate energy. Easily explained. Lightsabers still nuke most things.
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In every star wars system jedi can absorb/dissipate energy. Easily explained. Lightsabers still nuke most things.
Too true. In I, Jedi, Corran's family is really good at that. Heck, he saw a "flashback" of his grandfather absorbing all the energy from a Sith's lightsaber, and using that energy to TK him to death. Granted, he absorbed the energy after it was stabbed through his chest, so it was his final hurrah, but still.
-EF
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Too true. In I, Jedi, Corran's family is really good at that. Heck, he saw a "flashback" of his grandfather absorbing all the energy from a Sith's lightsaber, and using that energy to TK him to death. Granted, he absorbed the energy after it was stabbed through his chest, so it was his final hurrah, but still.
-EF
I really liked that novel. I've always been a fan of Corran Horn.
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I think most of the books are as good or better than the films, I can't think of many book which where as bad as the prequel trilogy.
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Not many books, maybe, but there are some... :o
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Having read through this discussion, I think I can safely say that if a player wants to have a lightsaber, I would restrict him to the stunts shown by them in the original 3 movies. This discussion has been a bit of an eye-opener. Just because I have what I think is a firm idea of what a concept can do, that doesn't mean that everybody else will have the same concept of it!