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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JustADude on June 03, 2011, 01:22:01 PM
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As the subject implies, I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of how to modify the shape and condition of a genuine, non-conjured object using an evocation spell. Specifically, the character in question is a Scion with Channeling (Metal) as part of the power-set since the mythology behind his non-human parent suggests a great affinity for forges, blacksmithing, whitesmithing, and all other sorts of metalwork.
Unlike this post (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18533.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18533.0.html)), I do think it's appropriate for him to take a stress hit for the effect, and the actual duration of the magic is a few seconds at most, as is proper for Evocation. I just need to figure out the guidelines for how much each shift of Power would affect the shape of the object. Uses would include everything from shaping a piece of scrap into a of wrought-metal jewelery, such as in exchange for being given an unexpected gift, to turning a Weapon:1 pipe into a Weapon:2 (or even higher) sword.
Once again, Conjuration is NOT what I have in mind. These are actual, physical objects being manipulated by magic, not something being whipped up whole-cloth from ectoplasm.
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Well, technically, evocation doesn't have the find control to really do this properly. The rules for evocation don't really support this.
The best way I can see to model it would be to use evocation to make the metal pliable and to aid crafting quickly. What I'd do is treat evocation as a maneuver (with a base power of three shifts) to allow Crafting at rapid speeds. I'd then treat the skill of your work based on a Crafting skill roll in the next round.
I'd then use the Conjuration complexity rules as guidelines for the amount of power and the Crafting skill required. YS274.
Personally, I'd actually stat this up using Ritual, use Conjuring as a guideline, reduce the complexity by 1 and again for each step of quantity and size (thus 2 base, 1 for each step) since you're using material on hand and then just bump up the casting time on the time chart (1 shift of complexity equals a step up, as normal). I'd then use evocation maneuvers to make this easier if I had Channeling.
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I'd start by treating it as a maneuver (purely for mechanical purposes) except requiring a number of shifts equal to the Craft skill required to create plus however many time increments you need to make it last. This would make crude constructs lasting a day or so easy while highly skilled craftmanship and permanency are much harder to accomplish.
If you want permanency easier, you could default to a larger time increment or even ignore that part of the equation. But the idea of having cops wonder why there's blood on the pipe while the victim has knife wounds intrigues me... :)
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I'd start by treating it as a maneuver (purely for mechanical purposes) except requiring a number of shifts equal to the Craft skill required to create plus however many time increments you need to make it last. This would make crude constructs lasting a day or so easy while highly skilled craftmanship and permanency are much harder to accomplish.
If you want permanency easier, you could default to a larger time increment or even ignore that part of the equation. But the idea of having cops wonder why there's blood on the pipe while the victim has knife wounds intrigues me... :)
Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.
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I'd treat it as manuevers for evocation (from the mechanics standpoint) as well. 'Aligned Pattern', 'Formed Into *Insert Shape Here*', etc. Like the others said, thaumaturgy is what would do so best, or using evocation manuevers to aid you. Or, you could flavor your evocation attacks as using magic to strengthen/sharpen the weapon to nigh impossible degrees for just a few moments to hit your target with that weapon 5 you might now have.
Unless someone counterspells the process, it can't be reverted, provided magic isn't actively doing it.
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Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.
Right, but Magic Doesn't Last Forever. It's sort of a thing in the setting. Thus, your evocation can break down the metal, but you'd have to shape it with Crafting.
Remember, you can use Thaumaturgy at Evocation's speeds, you're just increasing the complexity by 3 or 4 (to reduce it from "a few minuites" to "a few moments" or "instant").
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Personally, I'd actually stat this up using Ritual, use Conjuring as a guideline, reduce the complexity by 1 and again for each step of quantity and size (thus 2 base, 1 for each step) since you're using material on hand and then just bump up the casting time on the time chart (1 shift of complexity equals a step up, as normal). I'd then use evocation maneuvers to make this easier if I had Channeling.
The character has enough Discipline, Lore, and Conviction (plus Aspects) to churn out a Ritual with that level of complexity on the fly, so that could work just dandy. If I'm doing both Channeling -AND- Ritual, I may just put it together under a -4 power with an appropriate name like Forge Magic, like the Changelings have Seelie or Unseelie magic.
Anyway, thanks for the help!
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You point your wand at the item in question and announce, "Reparo". :P
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I would start with the Conjuring (Thaumaturgy) rules, with the advantage that manipulating an existing object makes the final product permanent (not Ectoplasm), and thereby doesn't require a duration (or it requires a several-shift premium which we will call duration), but crossing thresholds isn't a risk for it. Though that may set an unwise precedent that matter can be easily disposed of by transmuting it to other matter.
Here are the guidelines I came up with:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23613.0.html
Of especial importance would be the Modifiers section, about believability and complexity. The GM should determine how plot-powerful a given change would be, then add Complexity as desired. Also, rapidly altering a mundane object with moving parts should be just as hard - or even harder - than making one up out of Ectoplasm.
That said, all of this goes back to the lead-into-gold issue. With this power, why isn't the character taking dirt and other detritus and turning it into gold?
As for the Evocation option: if the GM allows it, then start with an Evocation Maneuver to place the Aspect "Malleable Form" or something, then use the free tag to Invoke for Effect: the GM can charge extra Fate Points if a desired Effect would require more effort.
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Especially for a scion, sponsored magic should work well here. Changing the shape of an object into something (i assume) useful would be a simple task using craftsmanship or thaumaturgy as a replacement. With sponsored magic, you can do this at the speed of evocation, so that should be pretty much what you want.
Trying to do this with evocation would (for me) be the equivalent of a blind man going into a smithy and hitting around with a hammer for a few seconds and expecting to produce something useful. He might get REALLY lucky, but the chances are not good.
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I suppose the question here isn't "how do I do this right?" but "how do I do this quickly?" to which I think the best answer is Sponsored Magic from a source that has crafting or state-changing as its specialty, followed distantly by having enough of a Lore skill (or its equivalent) to hammer out a middling-expense ritual in just one ritual exchange.
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That said, all of this goes back to the lead-into-gold issue. With this power, why isn't the character taking dirt and other detritus and turning it into gold?
I'm not talking about transmutation of one substance into another substance, just using magic as a shortcut for the normal process of taking a hammer and beating the piece of metal into whatever shape it's supposed to end up in. Lead is still lead, iron is still iron, and conservation of mass stays in effect.
Especially for a scion, sponsored magic should work well here. Changing the shape of an object into something (i assume) useful would be a simple task using craftsmanship or thaumaturgy as a replacement. With sponsored magic, you can do this at the speed of evocation, so that should be pretty much what you want.
I suppose the question here isn't "how do I do this right?" but "how do I do this quickly?" to which I think the best answer is Sponsored Magic from a source that has crafting or state-changing as its specialty, followed distantly by having enough of a Lore skill (or its equivalent) to hammer out a middling-expense ritual in just one ritual exchange.
Sounds like that mostly hit the nail on the head, there; I think I was already unconsciously thinking about it when I mentioned rolling everything up under 'Forge Magic'.
Now, though, I'm trying to figure out what the Agenda should be; right now I'm thinking compulsions that would amount to the force being OCD about imperfections in metalwork, combined with antipathy towards Faeries of all types, since these spirits are so closely linked with iron and we all know what happens when you smack a Sidhe with a crowbar.
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Giving an example of what I think JustADude is talking about to make sure that I understand him.
Frederick the sorcerer has a metal pipe, which is a pretty lousy weapon (rating 1). He wants to make it better. So he calls up a blade of water and cuts off the end of the pipe at a sharp angle, making the pipe into a makeshift spear (weapon 2).
Is that what you mean?
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Giving an example of what I think JustADude is talking about to make sure that I understand him.
Frederick the sorcerer has a metal pipe, which is a pretty lousy weapon (rating 1). He wants to make it better. So he calls up a blade of water and cuts off the end of the pipe at a sharp angle, making the pipe into a makeshift spear (weapon 2).
Is that what you mean?
As far as I understood it, it was more something along the lines of "I have a bucket full of screws and I need a sword. *handwave* Now I got a sword." So from any shape into any shape, not from lousy shape to better shape. But I like the idea of using magic that way, I have to keep that in mind.
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Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.
The issue with ignoring time requirements is simply that you start replacing thaumaturgy with a more powerful alternative.
Now, though, I'm trying to figure out what the Agenda should be; right now I'm thinking compulsions that would amount to the force being OCD about imperfections in metalwork, combined with antipathy towards Faeries of all types, since these spirits are so closely linked with iron and we all know what happens when you smack a Sidhe with a crowbar.
I'm not sure what your character's concept is, but you might simply look to the legendary smiths from your character's background. Wayland, Hephaestus, Lugh, etc.
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Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.
I propose you walk us through an exchange-by-exchange simulation of how you would like to have such a process happen, with Skill checks and such.
For instance:
Exchange 1: cast Evocation
Exchange 2: Shape object with my hands (Craftsmanship)
Exchange 3: Object is ready for use
or
Exchange 1: cast Evocation
Exchange 2: Shape object with tools (Craftsmanship)
Exchange 3: Object is ready for use
or
Exchange 1: cast Evocation
Exchange 2: Shape object with your mind! (Craftsmanship modified by Discipline)
Exchange 3: Object is ready for use
or
Exchange 1: cast Evocation
Exchanges 2-12: Shape object with your tools, slowly, but much more quickly than creating a new one (Craftsmanship)
Exchange 13: Object is ready for use
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My one idea, I think would work, but it certainly lacks "finess";
If you don't mind it being done over several exchanges, instead of 1, I'd do it like this:
Every object has a quality and stress track based on that quality. Objects resist attacks with their quality and some may have an armor rating.
Why not "attack" the object with a spell - like any evocation attack where the power equals the weapon rating. The attack doesn't actually do damage, it just represents reshaping the item, although in reshaping the item, I guess you're, in effect, damaging it. Do stress to the object and give it consequences. The consequences are in line with shaping the object into something else. When you finally inflict an Extreme concequence...or "take it out" it's a new item.
A pipe into a knife would have mild consequence of Flat, a moderate of Sharpened etc...
I know that objects don't usually get consequences, but his magic would specialize in this kind of thing - it's purpose is to create consequenses in items to use for crafting.
So, for shaping most objects outside of combat, you wouldn't even roll (because that would be tedious and an object can't attack back). You'd say it takes 20 minutes and it's done. Then do a quick craft roll to see how well it worked.
But say you want to turn your enemy's sword into a useless blunt object during combat, you could, but it would take multiple exchanges and the higher the quality the sword, the harder it will be.
To actually craft it into something else, there'd always be a craft role associated with it and the difficulty would be based on how wildly different the new object is from the old one. Trying to increase the quality of the item would also increase the difficulty. On the up-side, you could tag all the items consequences for your craft roll.
EDIT: maybe you would roll outside of combat, because everytime you cast a spell you take mental stress and possible consequences. So your metal worker might not be able to do an item in one sitting. He could still do it WAY faster than using any mundane forging techniques.
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That solution feels to be appropriately aligned with the FATE Fractal approach of treating all game elements as "characters," @Taran! I'm still curious how @JustADude would envision the final result.
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Giving an example of what I think JustADude is talking about to make sure that I understand him.
Frederick the sorcerer has a metal pipe, which is a pretty lousy weapon (rating 1). He wants to make it better. So he calls up a blade of water and cuts off the end of the pipe at a sharp angle, making the pipe into a makeshift spear (weapon 2).
Is that what you mean?
As far as I understood it, it was more something along the lines of "I have a bucket full of screws and I need a sword. *handwave* Now I got a sword." So from any shape into any shape, not from lousy shape to better shape. But I like the idea of using magic that way, I have to keep that in mind.
Somewhere between the two of those, really. Using Sanctaphrax's example, my idea would have Frederick the Sorcerer take the metal pipe he managed to scrounge up and work some Earth Magic mojo on it to squash it flat, except for the part he's gripping, and crease a cutting edge into at least one side to make a crude, but effective, sword. If he could channel enough juice he might do some work on the crystalline structure of the metal to make it tougher and/or sharper than normally possible for mild pipe steel, and more akin to how an actual sword-blade would behave.
My original concern was how to quantify how much Power would have been required per shift of Weapon rating. As others have mentioned, the easiest way to do it is just take a Sponsored Magic and use modified Conjuration rules.
Also, if all he had was a bucket of screws he'd probably just use a standard Evocation attack to fling them at his opponent at high velocity... though I shudder to think about the puns that would result if he took someone out with that spell.
My one idea, I think would work, but it certainly lacks "finess";
If you don't mind it being done over several exchanges, instead of 1, I'd do it like this:
*SNIP*
That solution feels to be appropriately aligned with the FATE Fractal approach of treating all game elements as "characters," @Taran! I'm still curious how @JustADude would envision the final result.
Taran's idea sounds very, very cool in general terms, but it really would have to be in one or two exchanges, since this would mostly be for 'emergency' applications. The character is, as one might expect, does custom metalwork for a living, so he has plenty of access to mundanely created weapons if he has enough forewarning to grab his goodie-bag out of the trunk.
I'm not sure what your character's concept is, but you might simply look to the legendary smiths from your character's background. Wayland, Hephaestus, Lugh, etc.
The easiest way to encapsulate the general idea is to point at Zee, from the "Mercy Thompson" books by Patricia Briggs, but young, mostly human, and making his living as a blacksmith instead of a mechanic.
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That solution feels to be appropriately aligned with the FATE Fractal approach of treating all game elements as "characters," @Taran! I'm still curious how @JustADude would envision the final result.
I guess, firstly, you have to determine whether, using mundane means and given enough time and an appropriate workspace, item A can be changed into Item B.
You can change a 2 foot metal rod into a sharp metal stick, no problem. Can you change it into a 30foot support beam for a bridge? No way. Not enough material. Could you change it into a small firearm? Probably, but it would be more difficult.
With that in mind, the Gm can determine how easy it is. I think, at the very least, the item should take an extreme consequence. So a mediocre quality item would have to take 10 stress: 8 for extreme and 2 for its boxes. If you're turning a metal rod into a baseball bat, do you need to go through all its consequences? Probably not.
Take that same rod and turn it into a gun, and now you've got a more complicated process and probably you'd have to inflict more consequences before the object "concedes".
A power 5 attack spell cast by someone with discipline 5 will do about 10 stress to an average item. That means you can do simple things in 1 exchange. More complex items in 2 and super complex items in 3 exchanges.
Things of higher quality are going to take more time. I have an idea of how the craft difficulties would work as well. I just don't have time to post them right now.
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This is an odd enough situation that I'd feel totally alright with pulling numbers out of my rear end. Pipe-to-sword would probably be 4 shifts, capped at weapon 2. Messing with the crystalline structure of the metal is definitely beyond the scope of evocation.
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If he went the route of sponsored magic he would be getting the effects of tham. at the speed of evo. What kind of numbers do you think he should be using in that case Sanctaphrax?
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I think that sponsored magic is the smoothest way of doing it. Figure out complexity, it becomes the base power for the spell, then cast. Like I said above, the solution I presented lacks "finess".
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Same difficulty for weapon 2. But thaumaturgy would make an upgrade to weapon 3 possible, at a cost of 7 shifts or so.
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Same difficulty for weapon 2. But thaumaturgy would make an upgrade to weapon 3 possible, at a cost of 7 shifts or so.
Now, with an appropriate Sponsored Magic (aka, one focused on crafting magical metalwork), what would you say the theoretical limit one could enhance a weapon's rating by using magic? Both temporarily, for a single swing or for a scene, and permanently?
In this case, assume that the object in question is an extant weapon (consider it a 1.5-hand 'bastard sword', similar to Amoracchius in physical design, if it matters). Said weapon has been previously crafted by the character attempting the spell in question with all the loving care Mac gives his brew and, in the case of the permanent enchantment, the magic would be getting mixed into the blade as an inherent part of the forging process.
Also relevant, this Sponsor would likely also have been involved in the creation of at least one legendary blade, the sword Macabuin created by the Dark Smith of Drontheim, which is fabled to have been able to cut solid granite "just by touching it". It was the Dark Smith's greatest work, though, so I imagine it would've been a very extended working.
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Now, with an appropriate Sponsored Magic (aka, one focused on crafting magical metalwork), what would you say the theoretical limit one could enhance a weapon's rating by using magic? Both temporarily, for a single swing or for a scene, and permanently?
I'm not sure Thaumaturgy has a theoretical limit...though some rituals may take generations to set up. :)
As a purely practical limit and keeping in mind the law of diminishing returns, I'd suggest requiring a number of shifts equal to the square of the weapon increase. Weapon 2 would cost 4 shifts, weapon 3 costs 9, etc. As for how long it lasts, I'd use the existing time increment chart.
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I'm not sure Thaumaturgy has a theoretical limit...though some rituals may take generations to set up. :)
As a purely practical limit and keeping in mind the law of diminishing returns, I'd suggest requiring a number of shifts equal to the square of the weapon increase. Weapon 2 would cost 4 shifts, weapon 3 costs 9, etc. As for how long it lasts, I'd use the existing time increment chart.
That works well for temporary shifts, but what about forging an inherently magical weapon? Something akin to the Warden Blades, just as an example. Lucio was the sole supplier for the Council, and she was quite capable of keeping up with demand without wearing herself out.
EDIT: Given that the time taken for the Craftsmanship of the object would take far longer than performing the actual Thaumaturgy, the time constraints created by adding complexity seem almost moot. Perhaps simply tie how much mojo can be permanently stored in a newly forged object into the final quality rating of the object, some how?
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That works well for temporary shifts, but what about forging an inherently magical weapon? Something akin to the Warden Blades, just as an example. Lucio was the sole supplier for the Council, and she was quite capable of keeping up with demand without wearing herself out.
The narrative can cover the forging in any way which fits the story. Mechanically those are either Items of Power or enchanted items / foci. Permanent items are paid for with refresh and temporary with fate points.
EDIT: Given that the time taken for the Craftsmanship of the object would take far longer than performing the actual Thaumaturgy, the time constraints created by adding complexity seem almost moot. Perhaps simply tie how much mojo can be permanently stored in a newly forged object into the final quality rating of the object, some how?
That works for the narrative. Mechanically, power is limited by refresh / fate.
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A magic sword has to be an IoP or an enchanted item. Otherwise it caps out at weapon 3, just like a mundane item.
The above ruling is specifically designed to prevent shenanigans.
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The narrative can cover the forging in any way which fits the story. Mechanically those are either Items of Power or enchanted items / foci. Permanent items are paid for with refresh and temporary with fate points.
That works for the narrative. Mechanically, power is limited by refresh / fate.
A magic sword has to be an IoP or an enchanted item. Otherwise it caps out at weapon 3, just like a mundane item.
The above ruling is specifically designed to prevent shenanigans.
Gotcha. I assume if he's only making them on commission and never plans on actually using them himself, other than a few tests to be sure they came out right, it would just be a narrative reason for his Resources rating?
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Sure, could be an explanation for Resources if he's selling them, Contacts if he's supplying an organization, or could even be the reason some Power chose him as an emissary. All depends on what spin you want to put on the narrative.
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I just realized that my statement sounded like I was explaining an actual rule.
I wasn't; that's just my take on the issue.
Anyway, I agree with UmbraLux about the skills.