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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Crion on June 02, 2011, 03:33:34 PM

Title: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Crion on June 02, 2011, 03:33:34 PM
As I've started to put together some of my villains, I have to wonder: is it possible to have multiple forms of Sponsored Magic?

To be specific, would it be possible to have Sponsored Magic from a solid sponsor (Hellfire, (Un)Seelie Magic, etc) and a more vague "sponsor" (Leyline, Kemmlerian Necromancy)?

The current villain of the story is a Necromancer (has the equivalent of Kemmlerian Necromancy) who is in possession of a box that, rules-wise, would work like a Leyline. Would he have Sponsored Magic on his sheet twice, or do you believe that it should be limited to ONLY one sponsor?

Also, if you agree that it would be a second Sponsor, if the task at hand matched both agendas, how would you rule gaining Sponsor Debt? Would you limit it to only one sponsor, or would you just decide on it based on the plot?

Thanks for the input!

--Crion
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: kihon on June 02, 2011, 03:51:05 PM
What you have described might best be played out as One Sponsor of Magic and One Item of Power.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: zenten on June 02, 2011, 03:56:16 PM
Harry's managed to have up to three different sponsors at once, so I don't see why not.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: wyvern on June 02, 2011, 04:00:13 PM
I'd say that's two sponsored magics, though the second one may be limited by the Item of Power drawback.  (On the other hand, the second one might already be a one-point sponsored magic, in which case officially linking it to an Item of Power offers no benefit.)

As for sponsor debt: I'd say he could rack up debt with each sponsor individually.  If the task matches both agendas, then he could get two "free" (i.e. not costing a fate point) aspect invokes (one from each sponsor) at the cost of two points of sponsor debt (again, one for each sponsor).
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Becq on June 02, 2011, 05:09:03 PM
I think it's possible to have two Sponsored Magics.  However, keep in mind that each Sponsored Magic requires a Sponsor, and is the result of a bargain made with that Sponsor.  So it's important to think carefully about why each of the two Sponsors would agree to share their 'subject', rather than simply consider the other Sponsor to represent a breach of contract.

In your example, the magic box that acts as a ley line doesn't actually need to count as a Sponsor, unless you decide that it is senient, has an agenda, and will make demands in exchange for offered power.  If you do decide that it is a Sponsor, then it should have an agenda that is distinct from Kemmler's, though they might agree on some things.  While this is more likely to be smoothed over by the Power of Plot for NPCs, if a player were to attempt this, then there should definitely be moments in which the Sponsors pull the character in opposite directions.  What happens when two debts get called in, and satisfying those debts are mutually exclusive?  Perhaps one of the Sponsors might be willing to negotiate to withdraw their compel ... for a price (and one which would be costlier than the debt it substitutes for).

You could use this for the NPC, as well.  Perhaps the players might notice that his actions seem at times to be almost schizophrenic, making guessing his goals difficult and predicting his next move a challenge.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: devonapple on June 02, 2011, 05:26:35 PM
How would we price it out, though?

Having Sponsored Magic means the player has spent 2-4 Refresh (depending on how magically capable they already were).

Would each additional Sponsor be just another 2 Refresh? Or would we not even charge Refresh for it because, ultimately, the Debt is more important than spending the Refresh for the advantages of each Sponsor?
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: rickayelm on June 02, 2011, 07:44:26 PM
Every additional sponsor would have to be paid for sepperately.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on June 02, 2011, 08:30:50 PM
Pay each separately.  The ability to acquire debt and bonuses to different spellcasting areas more than justify the -2 (assuming Evocation and Thaumaturgy).  Granted, if you only had Sponsored Magic, it's a little steep to spend an additional -4.  I may allow it to be discounted by -1.~
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: sinker on June 02, 2011, 08:42:44 PM
I know it's a little wonky and not RAW, but I might qualify the first sponsored magic as evocation and thaumaturgy for the purpose of refresh cost of the second. Seems like 6 refresh isn't terrible for that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Becq on June 02, 2011, 11:28:33 PM
Based on the discussion justifying the discount for Sponsored Magic on YS287, I'd go with the following logic:

* Sponsored Magic is the equivalent of Channeling (ie, single-element Evocation) plus Ritual (ie, single-theme Thaumaturgy).
* When adding Sponsored Magic to existing Evocation, you are effectively adding an Element to your Evocation.  So the Channeling portion of the price is reduced to the equivalent of a Refinement to add an Element.
* When adding Sponsored Magic to existing Thaumaturgy, you are effectively adding a Function/Theme to your Thaumaturgy.  So the Ritual portion of the price is reduced to the equivalent of a Refinement to add a Function/Theme.

For the dual Sponsored Magic case, consider that:

* Channeling + Channeling = Evocation with 2 Elements
* Ritual + Ritual = Thaumaturgy with 2 Functions/Themes

So it seems reasonable to me that two Channelings + two Rituals should cost no more than Evocation + Thaumaturgy.  You lose an Element and a Function/Theme, plus two +1 specializations, but gain the bonuses associated with the Sponsored Magics.  I think this is balanced (noting, of course, that you don't get the bonus foci for the discounted version, as normal).
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Peteman on June 03, 2011, 01:39:29 AM
I would say that it is possible to have multiple Sponsors at once, though I don't know how one would represent it mechanically (-1 to -2 for each additional one maybe).

However, Sponsors tend to be fickle, so make sure they are compatible (You could probably swing a Gaia/Summer Court Sponsorship, but you won't find anyone with Summer and Winter Sponsorship).
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: UmbraLux on June 03, 2011, 03:04:22 AM
I suspect the biggest hangup with two sponsors is jealousy.  :)  Seriously, unless the sponsors always work together (in which case I'd stat them as one sponsor) their disparate agendas will be what is compelled.  You'd probably end up with an insane wizard!  Consider myth and how well Greek, Roman, and other gods got along...they usually sent a mortal to stab each other in the back before too long. 

That said, I think there are exceptions.  A location such as a grove may well stack with a druid's sponsor.  It would only work in the location's range, but it's possible. 
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Crion on June 03, 2011, 02:21:51 PM
Thank you all for the input so far! To address a few thoughts:

1) Cost. For this NPC, he already has full blown Evocation and Thaumaturgy (as required for Kemmlerian Necromancy), so I dropped the cost of the sponsored magics to -2 each.

2) IoP Option: I was considering making this an IoP, but after re-reading the explanation of Leyline-Sponsored Magic, and the concept of "bringing the power with you," I thought the idea of personally keeping the box in the city and bringing along with for certain tasks (the box demands souls, so bringing it along to "feed," so to speak, is the extend of bringing it around) was a bit more fitting. The item itself doesn't grant the power; the item is just the vessel that contains the sponsor, so it didn't seem fitting enough to act as an IoP on it's own.

3) Sponsor Agendas: The second sponsor is out to consume souls first, promote the goals of Entropy (think the forces of Down Below) as a close second. In this case, killing targets and/or taking away their free, then using the bodies for necromancy for entropy-like purposes will seem to be the bread and butter of both sponsors.
In this case, would you allow the character to gain a debt to both sponsors as each essentially invokes the same Aspect, or would you require something different? This seemed to be against the RAW (as you can online invoke each Aspect once), but still interesting all the same.


Again, just my notes and thoughts to see if that promotes any further conversations ^_^
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: UmbraLux on June 03, 2011, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: Crion on June 03, 2011, 02:21:51 PM
3) Sponsor Agendas: The second sponsor is out to consume souls first, promote the goals of Entropy (think the forces of Down Below) as a close second. In this case, killing targets and/or taking away their free, then using the bodies for necromancy for entropy-like purposes will seem to be the bread and butter of both sponsors.
In this case, would you allow the character to gain a debt to both sponsors as each essentially invokes the same Aspect, or would you require something different? This seemed to be against the RAW (as you can online invoke each Aspect once), but still interesting all the same.
While the character may not have a separate aspect for each sponsor, the power itself set's up a separate aspect.  So Hellfire plus Kemmlerian Necromancy are different aspects and should be compelled and used separately.  That said, one power may well use existing debt to unexpectedly add to a spell using power from the other sponsor...assuming agendas re satisfied.  That delicate soul trapping necromancy spell suddenly infused with Hellfire may well drive the soul insane...of course that may not be a problem for the wizard.  :)

Thinking about the books, it seems Harry has at least three sponsors at the moment.  So perhaps competing agendas should be less an issue than I'd initially thought.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on June 03, 2011, 03:43:43 PM
Quote from: UmbraLux on June 03, 2011, 02:50:13 PM
While the character may not have a separate aspect for each sponsor, the power itself set's up a separate aspect.  So Hellfire plus Kemmlerian Necromancy are different aspects and should be compelled and used separately.  That said, one power may well use existing debt to unexpectedly add to a spell using power from the other sponsor...assuming agendas re satisfied.  That delicate soul trapping necromancy spell suddenly infused with Hellfire may well drive the soul insane...of course that may not be a problem for the wizard.  :)

Thinking about the books, it seems Harry has at least three sponsors at the moment.  So perhaps competing agendas should be less an issue than I'd initially thought.

3?
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Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: UmbraLux on June 03, 2011, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: InFerrumVeritas on June 03, 2011, 03:43:43 PM
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Hmm, I missed any evidence of
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.  Need to re-read the books I guess.  :)  As for shenanigans, I don't really see a problem as long as each sponsor is paid for with refresh.  Don't think a second sponsor gives nearly as much a power boost as the first.  It's more a case of additional options...and agendas.

I do think sponsor agendas should be emphasized.  Else even one sponsor can cause an imbalance in power.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: zenten on June 04, 2011, 01:27:38 AM
I see "could Hairy do something like this?" as a good goalpost as a GM when a player wants to do something.
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Crion on June 06, 2011, 01:54:09 PM
@UmbraLux & InFerrumVeritas:
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Quote from: zenten on June 04, 2011, 01:27:38 AM
I see "could Hairy do something like this?" as a good goalpost as a GM when a player wants to do something.

Well said on that one. While my players have not read the series, they are liking the system and what it has to offer :-D
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on June 06, 2011, 02:32:03 PM
(click to show/hide)
...

The above has me wondering how to best handle place based "sponsors"...

Richard
Title: Re: Sponsored Magic: Only one, or multiple?
Post by: Katarn on June 06, 2011, 02:55:21 PM
Harry in Changes is the best evidence: 
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.  You could argue
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is one, but he's not bound to it (yet).

I see no reason why not, unless there's a conflict of interest (which could easily arise in the future given Harry's 2 definitive sponsors).