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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Michael Sandy on June 02, 2011, 06:26:57 AM

Title: Real world monsters
Post by: Michael Sandy on June 02, 2011, 06:26:57 AM
As bad as the magical monsters of fantasy are, sometimes the ones in the real world are worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13622679

Are things like this too dark to have in an RPG?  I mean, on the one hand it is something that fits in perfectly with what wardens or other heroes would try to stop.  There would be a huge climactic battle, demons summoned, and helpless abused humans saved.

There are human beings that treat other human beings like cattle, and don't even have the excuse of being Monsters.  They sacrifice babies for magic and it doesn't even WORK.  I can barely fathom the evil of someone doing it knowing it WOULD genuinely give them power.

Ever have a moment in a campaign where the evil just hit too close to home, the description was too vivid, the emotional reaction was too intense?
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: BumblingBear on June 02, 2011, 07:21:00 AM
I don't have a limit on gritty or realistic.

Each group is different, though.

Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: toturi on June 02, 2011, 07:30:45 AM
Depends on the RPGs in question. Some delve deeper into the darker sides of human nature.

It doesn't matter if other people believe that magic doesn't work, they do. In fact, I would think that it would be worse if they didn't believe the juju worked but they still did it anyway. Anyway, I think the hospital owner probably just missed a payment to the local strongman.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: NicholasQuinn on June 02, 2011, 09:29:03 AM
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Ever have a moment in a campaign where the evil just hit too close to home, the description was too vivid, the emotional reaction was too intense?


Yes, but the only player at the table affected was me. I didn't openly show my reaction, thus the game continued fine. Suffice to say; the bad guy paid for it. Harry's baseball bat definitely served as some inspiration.  

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There are human beings that treat other human beings like cattle, and don't even have the excuse of being Monsters.  They sacrifice babies for magic and it doesn't even WORK.  I can barely fathom the evil of someone doing it knowing it WOULD genuinely give them power.


Not everyone would agree that it doesn't work. But it is definitely wrong. However, I actually think that if this were to be used as an adventure; it shouldn't work. It should be simple 'Witchcraft' from the modern day, not any high-powered thaumaturgy from the DFRPG point of view. Why? Because as you say, it makes the situation all the worse; and makes the people far more evil. Of course, they should still believe it works.

[Edit:] Or perhaps it used to work. Perhaps the 'cult' gained the ritual from a book released by the White Council to render the cosmic vending machine useless. Now not only are the cultists evil, but so are arguably the White Council; although the latter would claim it is for the greater good, preventing Cults from using the real power thing - but when babies are dying anyway, does that really hold up against the Heroes moral standards?

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Are things like this too dark to have in an RPG?  I mean, on the one hand it is something that fits in perfectly with what wardens or other heroes would try to stop.  There would be a huge climactic battle, demons summoned, and helpless abused humans saved.


That would depend on the group/rpg.

Just a thought though, if you were to ease of the demons and keep with more mundane monsters, think of the opportunities for a Wizard's inner-conflict. As you say, these people are monsters. But the laws of magic don't agree with the difference. Would you end the life of said monster, to save the life of the human he is about to sacrifice? If it were a Vampire, the decision would be easy. Not so much now.

Of course, the above only works if a player is happy to go down that route. Either to decide at the last minute to use non-lethal force, or to end the pathetic excuse for a human-being's life in a tide of dark emotions. Such a character doesn't necessarily instantly become evil, just several shades of grey darker- and likely jaded.

Hell, the same applies for many types of character, its just Wizard's have the most obvious consequences. Not all characters find the concept of murder acceptable, even when its a necessity. Think Murphy when she first had to kill humans. Sure, in the heat of battle she would be fine with it, but she does reflect upon it. Even Renfield's made her uncertain. Other characters can also grow darker, or at least greyer, based on such a situation.


Quote from: BumblingBear on June 02, 2011, 07:21:00 AM
I don't have a limit on gritty or realistic.

Each group is different, though.

This. Whilst I would both be happy to play in, and run, an adventure with the above concept in mind; be it with supernatural elements, or kept purely 'closer-to-home' and mundane - not all groups would. You'd have a better idea then us as to how your group would handle it.


Thank you for sharing your find, and the news story. It made for an interesting, if slightly disturbing, read. I may actually use it as the basis for an adventure.



Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: crusher_bob on June 02, 2011, 09:35:29 AM
If you want disturbing and surreal violence, it's hard to beat General Butt Naked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked)
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: Wookinstien on June 02, 2011, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: crusher_bob on June 02, 2011, 09:35:29 AM
If you want disturbing and surreal violence, it's hard to beat General Butt Naked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked)

Wow, just wow.......   :o
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: Team8Mum on June 02, 2011, 11:12:22 AM
I would guess that would depend on your players and where there personal lines are.
I have a player where I could deal out any amount of abuse and rape (it's even in the pcs back ground) but I can't make reference to anything with 8 legs and a chitinous body without her going into fits!

On a related note - and from the day job... (I work in child protection). This one drifted across my inbox on a public mail out a few weeks back;
Safeguarding children's rights: exploring issues of witchcraft and spirit possession in London's African communities
http://www.trustforlondon.org.uk/Safeguarding%20final%20report.pdf

I have to confess to reading it with half a mind on, "actually some of this would be very useful for a suplement for the Laundry or Dresden".
  
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: admiralducksauce on June 02, 2011, 11:34:31 AM
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Ever have a moment in a campaign where the evil just hit too close to home, the description was too vivid, the emotional reaction was too intense?

Not DFRPG, but my brother ran a campaign set in Vietnam a while back and it was gritty and ugly and it was a really good campaign, but we got really into our characters and found maybe just a tiny iota of how fucked up it must have been to, say, even just tell your guys to cross a certain bridge as opposed to fording the river.  Maybe both are fine. Maybe the bridge is trapped.  Maybe the river is trapped.  Maybe both are trapped.  And you do it all again when you reach the next bridge.  Knowing that real people (including two of our uncles) did this and lived or died by nothing more than random fucking chance was humbling and maybe yeah, maybe a little upsetting when all was said and done.  It was more affecting than any "horror" game and more memorable than any fantasy epic campaign I've played.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: SunlessNick on June 02, 2011, 11:37:37 AM
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Because as you say, it makes the situation all the worse; and makes the people far more evil. Of course, they should still believe it works.  -  NicholasQuinn
I would say that anyone who kills people because they believe it powers magic for them is on the same level of evil regardless of whether the magic actually works.

On the other hand, a supplier who doesn't believe in the magic their customers purport to use is a unique kind of sick.  (Again though, not more so - to say that implies that getting power out of the atrocity makes it more defensible, and I reject that).

Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: NicholasQuinn on June 02, 2011, 12:43:16 PM
I totally agree with you. The actions described are sick, twisted and morally wrong in every way. If my previous post in anyway made it seem otherwise, I apologise.

However in the Dresden Files, powers corrupts; especially those that violate the laws of magic (such as human sacrifice to fuel magic). With that in mind, it makes them seem slightly used by the power, which is a poor defense, but a defense none the less. Of course, that is likely due to the fact they might not have intended to fall down the slippery slope- you never know. Although the OP made it seem they were fully incontrol of what actions they took.

I also (personally) find it easier to distance myself from the evils of magical beings, be it mortals with powers or supernatural beings following their nature. I know on every level it is just as evil for a mortal to commit such an act, as it is for a mortal with magic to do so; but it just seems a tad different. Maybe it isn't a scale of the severity, and more ... well, just difference.

But then, most would say the magical beings could only be fiction, whereas the human breed of monster is very much real.
(I say 'most' because some, including myself, believe in many Supernatural things, including the art of magic; at least in some forms)

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I would say that anyone who kills people because they believe it powers magic for them is on the same level of evil regardless of whether the magic actually works.

That was a slip on my part. Naturally if they believe it works, truely believe it, then yes. I guess it would be the same even if they didn't. It just becomes utterly pointless if it does not work. Evil can have a reason, however if it were meaningless it adds a slightly different tone.

Tone serves what I mean better then severity, I think. It would be different tones of evil, not whether or not it was more, or less, evil.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: SunlessNick on June 02, 2011, 02:15:12 PM
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If my previous post in anyway made it seem otherwise, I apologise.  -  NicholasQuinn
No need to apologise, sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

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Maybe it isn't a scale of the severity, and more ... well, just difference.
Possibly some sense of comfort in an atrocity having a point; being able to get at least that level of order out of it.  "He thought he'd get magic out of it, so we know why they were killed" feels better than "he murdered a mass of people for no discernable reason" - even more so, perhaps, if "he did get magic out of it, so they weren't murdered for the sake of a pointless delusion."  The moral enormity of the crime is the same, but the sense of a world where these things can just happen is lessened by the knowledge that there was a reason, especially a reason that worked.

Am I making any sense, or talking out of my arse?


Ok, pop psychology aside, and nodding to the topic.


As Bumbling Bear said, each group is different, and each player is different.  I've not run into a deal-breaking boundary for me as a player (in terms of witnessing or suffering; there are things I'd never have a character do).  There are things I would be antsy about doing as a GM though.  I figure the "this game will to dark places; please tell me if there are any boundaries or buttons that would take the game out of your comfort zone" thing would generally cover it.  I had something a little similar to the OP in one setting, though it was a Russian Mafiya gang, which sold trafficked people for medical experiments.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: Becq on June 03, 2011, 12:02:51 AM
Quote from: Michael Sandy on June 02, 2011, 06:26:57 AM
As bad as the magical monsters of fantasy are, sometimes the ones in the real world are worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13622679
If I ever needed evidence that there was, in fact, true good and true evil in the world (ie, rather than mere shades of grey), you've just provided it.  Well, for the true evil part, at least.

Its times like this I wish I could do what Dresden can.  If I could, there'd be a heat signature centered on that jail cell that could be detected from orbit.  And I don't think there'd be a Lawbreaker generated from that kill, either...
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: Team8Mum on June 03, 2011, 06:20:17 AM
Quote from: Michael Sandy on June 02, 2011, 06:26:57 AM
Ever have a moment in a campaign where the evil just hit too close to home, the description was too vivid, the emotional reaction was too intense?
Yes. A couple of times
One was the "you see a long thins black chitinous point come round the edge of the door, slowly followed by another, the shadow cast on the wall revealing more." which had the player jumping unmans screaming - I didn't realise her arachnophobia  was that bad. It was actually a scorpion but I didn't get far enough into the description before she freaked.

Another was cornering a possessed NPC they were tracking down on the top of a multi-story carpark and the guy in a state of confusion and fear threatening to jump. Which is how I discovered a friend had previously tried to kill themselves in a very similar way. We stoped that game, and the following week rewound it to the point they started tracking him down and went in a different direction.

It happens less at a table than it does in PBeM as you can see people getting uncomfortable and back off.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: tetrasodium on June 05, 2011, 02:51:05 AM
Quote from: Michael Sandy on June 02, 2011, 06:26:57 AM
As bad as the magical monsters of fantasy are, sometimes the ones in the real world are worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13622679

Are things like this too dark to have in an RPG?  I mean, on the one hand it is something that fits in perfectly with what wardens or other heroes would try to stop.  There would be a huge climactic battle, demons summoned, and helpless abused humans saved.

There are human beings that treat other human beings like cattle, and don't even have the excuse of being Monsters.  They sacrifice babies for magic and it doesn't even WORK.  I can barely fathom the evil of someone doing it knowing it WOULD genuinely give them power.

Ever have a moment in a campaign where the evil just hit too close to home, the description was too vivid, the emotional reaction was too intense?
This sort of thing was covered in one of the later books, maybe turncoat or changes, I can't recall for sure which
(click to show/hide)
  The wardens would probably involve themselves in the first law breaking bit, but the rest would be not their problem to deal with.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: Katarn on June 05, 2011, 04:39:38 AM
As has been said, depends entirely on your group.  I think my 3.5 DnD friends would be open to it, since we can get into in-depth discussions on this kind of things.

That being said, BE SURE IT'S OK WITH YOUR PLAYERS.  Everyone has issues, and if you accidentally tread on a player's it can hurt them badly, or even make them leave the group.  Approach delicate topics cautiously, and probe the players' reactions.  Know your own limits and don't cross them (even if your players want to).  The point is to have fun- if that includes extreme realism and grit, go for it.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: arsieiuni on June 05, 2011, 05:42:33 AM
"In some parts of the country, babies killed as part of witchcraft rituals are believed to make the charms more powerful, he says." (quote from OP's link)

Watch National Geographic Taboo, episodes on Witchcraft, Healing, Voodoo, Tests of Faith, and Evil Spirits. (can be found on Netflix)

Every culture has its limits on what is okay and what is taboo. I really have to wonder about the perspective that those who do these things have. It's fascinating on the anthropology level.

Anyway... One thing I'd say is : In any game, it's important to know your players' comfort levels. Before you start the first session, ask everyone as a group to let you know if they have any content-limits. I make it a point to say "Even if you think it would be a given, let me know if there is a line that if crossed in the campaign, you would be uncomfortable playing."
Then give an opportunity for them to tell you in private so if anyone is embarrassed they can do so. Or ask them all to write down their answer.

I have a few topics to avoid due to my group. I avoid rape and similar issues, certain social situations that I just won't put my players in, and heavy death/loss of family concepts (the latter being my own personal limitation). These are some things that just make the game table too uncomfortable for us to be happy.

On the other hand, I have an interesting group. And at my last session, much to my surprise, one female character ended up giving a teenage male character his first "sexual type encounter" and the players comfortably detailed the scene at the table verbally... gesturing occassionally. lol (Now this was a well-played scene between an awkward, self-conscious teenage boy and a very socially adept and open-minded low-twenties changeling woman who had befriended him recently. This was not outright verbal smut lol. It was really well played and it set some very important changes in the characters. It was also playing to the changeling's aspect "Enjoy life".) I was surprised at how comfortable my players were with this content... then I reminded myself we're in our mid-to-late twenties and not kids anymore. We can cover adult content. As long as everyone's having fun, it's all good. I honestly just felt like 'Damn, wish I had a bowl of popcorn for this.' :)

So just make sure to know your players' limits and you should be fine.
Title: Re: Real world monsters
Post by: sinker on June 05, 2011, 06:37:26 AM
Quote from: Team8Mum on June 03, 2011, 06:20:17 AM
Another was cornering a possessed NPC they were tracking down on the top of a multi-story carpark and the guy in a state of confusion and fear threatening to jump. Which is how I discovered a friend had previously tried to kill themselves in a very similar way. We stoped that game, and the following week rewound it to the point they started tracking him down and went in a different direction.

I was about to say that there wasn't anything that I would be uncomfortable with and then you brought this up. Personal experience can really make for some raw issues. It helps to have known your players for a long time. I have a group I have been playing with for maybe fifteen or twenty years and I'm pretty sure that I know what they're all ok with. When I game with others though I definitely make sure that I'm gentle with them.