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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zenten on May 30, 2011, 08:21:57 PM

Title: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up a Denarian coin
Post by: zenten on May 30, 2011, 08:21:57 PM

So, I'm plotting something (I'm the GM) that may result in a PC picking up a Denarian coin.  What I'm trying to see is if I understand exactly what this will mean.

From my understanding:

Picking up the coin doesn't in itself force any powers to be taken, but the Player can easily use it to justify things like Hellfire and super strength/speed/endurance.  I'm trying to go down the dark temptation path, as opposed to the "now the PC doesn't have any Refresh and is thus an NPC right away" path.

There will be a passenger in your head, but you might not realize it right away.  This passenger can warp your perceptions at will, without any counter to it.

Getting rid of the passenger requires giving up the coin, and since the PC in question is a Sorcerer it would also require her to give up all her magical power.

Am I getting all that right?  Am I missing anything?

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 30, 2011, 08:24:38 PM

That's true, but I'd say that the PC has to be able to fight it.  Social, mental, possibly even physical conflicts to take the PC out are likely consequences.

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: arsieiuni on May 30, 2011, 09:15:46 PM

I've seen someone talk about using a new stress track for having a demon in your head. Likely run it off of Discipline since its a mental defense.  :)

And maybe I'm just forgetting something but I don't see that giving up the coin would = giving up all her own original magic. Just what she gained from the Demon.

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: Taran on May 30, 2011, 11:26:36 PM

Why not just use sponsored debt?

Need a free fate point?  No problem, here it is.
Want some Hellfire? Got some of that!
Boy, supernatural speed would be great right now.  Good thing I got that!
Oooh that looks like it's gonna hurt!  No prob, I'll suck it up!

Total debt = 4.

That's 4 compels the demon can do on the player.

It might not sound like much, but every time he's compelled into a situation that is not true to his own nature, it could affect his aspects.

He gets compelled to blast a mortal with Hellfire = Lawbreaker

There are probably plenty of "events" that would cause him to change an aspect which can be done at various milestones.

Anytime he's forced to take an Extreme consequence or taken out or forced to conceed, you can say that "the coin protected you from death" or something to that effect.  Now he changes his High Concept...

I think a denarian coin is a slow process and should be done via role playing.  

If your character wants to throw it away, let him and maybe he never thinks about it again.  That's fine.  Maybe that's all the role-playing you need to justify that he got rid of it...just remind him, every now and then, that he can always summon it back to his hand if he needs it...

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: Taran on May 30, 2011, 11:28:57 PM

oops.  Mis-post

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: Taran on May 30, 2011, 11:47:44 PM

Quote from: zenten on May 30, 2011, 08:21:57 PM

Getting rid of the passenger requires giving up the coin, and since the PC in question is a Sorcerer it would also require her to give up all her magical power.

Am I getting all that right?  Am I missing anything?

(click to show/hide)

You don't need to get rid of your magical power.  Harry didn't.  He just changed the "shadows" perspective on life.  It was Micheal who told Harry he had to give up his power.

It is one theory.  That's it.

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: Todjaeger on May 31, 2011, 03:13:41 AM

While this is specifically for Hexenwolves, having a character suddenly develop a Demonic Co-pilot like on YS175, and then suddenly get temped with all sorts of things (power, abilities, knowledge, etc) with each thing gained costing the character some Free Will/Refresh.

The "shadow" of the Denarian, like a Demonic Co-pilot would have an agenda which the player might need to make Discipline checks to control or act against, with Mental stress resulting.

-Cheers

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: Taran on May 31, 2011, 03:44:15 AM

Quote from: Todjaeger on May 31, 2011, 03:13:41 AM

While this is specifically for Hexenwolves, having a character suddenly develop a Demonic Co-pilot like on YS175, and then suddenly get temped with all sorts of things (power, abilities, knowledge, etc) with each thing gained costing the character some Free Will/Refresh.

The "shadow" of the Denarian, like a Demonic Co-pilot would have an agenda which the player might need to make Discipline checks to control or act against, with Mental stress resulting.

-Cheers

The only thing that I don't like about that is that with Demonic Co-pilot you are fighting the "demons" desires. They are actively trying to force their will on their "host". Denarians don't really work like that.  They just offer you choices and let you decide.

I don't really see there being an opposed role...except maybe the occasional social combat to represent the Denarian trying to convince you what the best choice is.

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: Todjaeger on May 31, 2011, 05:02:21 AM

Quote from: Taran on May 31, 2011, 03:44:15 AM

The only thing that I don't like about that is that with Demonic Co-pilot you are fighting the "demons" desires. They are actively trying to force their will on their "host". Denarians don't really work like that.  They just offer you choices and let you decide.

I don't really see there being an opposed role...except maybe the occasional social combat to represent the Denarian trying to convince you what the best choice is.

I am not so sure I would agree that the bound Denarians don't try to 'force' their desires on someone.  As we've seen from the novels, there are two basic camps amongst the Denarians.  Some of the members of the order are known by the name of the host (Nick, his wife Tess, and their daughter Deirdre...) while others are known by the member of the Fallen associated with the coin the host picked up.  The basic difference between the two camps is that members known by the host's name are known that way because the host and the Fallen have a partnership.  The others whom are just known by their Fallen are they way because the Fallen personality has completely subjugated the host and taken 'the drivers seat..."

Given that some of the Fallen were in control, it does suggest to me that, depending on the sort of personality the GM wants the Denarian to have, there could be internal battles of will between the character and the onboard Denarian.  If that is the case, then something like Demonic Co-pilot could model the situation rather well.

-Cheers

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: sinker on May 31, 2011, 05:13:51 AM

You know, it really does depend on the Denarian. Lasciel was all about the long game, the slow temptation of power over a long period of time. Nicodemus specifically chose her for Harry because that was Harry's struggle (one of his aspects is the temptation of power). Clearly there were other Denarians that worked differently (can anyone say Ursiel?). I think it's largely how you want to play it.

If you do want to go with the temptation of power angle then I would definitely use the sponsored debt system, and keep in mind that they don't need to have sponsored magic to pick up debt (though if they're using it regularly I would at least suggest marked by power or similar). I would also play it very subtly. Remember that the first time Lash shows up Harry has no idea who or what she is.

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up the Denarian coin
Post by: ballplayer72 on May 31, 2011, 07:04:42 PM

Quote from: Todjaeger on May 31, 2011, 05:02:21 AM

I am not so sure I would agree that the bound Denarians don't try to 'force' their desires on someone.  As we've seen from the novels, there are two basic camps amongst the Denarians.  Some of the members of the order are known by the name of the host (Nick, his wife Tess, and their daughter Deirdre...) while others are known by the member of the Fallen associated with the coin the host picked up.  The basic difference between the two camps is that members known by the host's name are known that way because the host and the Fallen have a partnership.  The others whom are just known by their Fallen are they way because the Fallen personality has completely subjugated the host and taken 'the drivers seat..."

Given that some of the Fallen were in control, it does suggest to me that, depending on the sort of personality the GM wants the Denarian to have, there could be internal battles of will between the character and the onboard Denarian.  If that is the case, then something like Demonic Co-pilot could model the situation rather well.

-Cheers

But that could be simply the result of poor choices on the persons part.   Look at

(click to show/hide)

sanya.   He had magog but he was still sanya.  Now look at magogs host in SmF.   He's just magog now.  Probably because he wasn't careful to not give the demon any leeway.  Take too much from them, under the wrong conditions and just like the Fae, they will own you heart and soul.

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up a Denarian coin
Post by: Taran on May 31, 2011, 07:49:13 PM

I have to agree with ballplayer72.

I think certain Denarians purposfully set out to find hosts that are weak and will easily succumb to temptation, eventually letting the Denarian do most or all of the descision-making.

Others, like to find a host with similar goals/ambition.

The strong hosts still have a say in what goes on, and this is why the hosts keep their identity.

There was a quote from the book along those lines...I can't even remember...

Title: Re: Trying to get a handle on what it means to pick up a Denarian coin
Post by: admiralducksauce on June 01, 2011, 12:43:17 AM

And I think if it's a PC being tempted with a Denarius, then it's more appropriate to go for the long temptation as it's probably more interesting for everyone concerned in the long run.  I like sponsored magic for that, and maybe adding in a Demonic  Co-Pilot as a compel situation later on as debt increases.  NPCs are the ones who should be getting mentally sledgehammered.