So two questions, one is there something about this process that my group and I are missing?
And two, if we're doing it right has anyone found a solution to this problem (if you find it to be a problem at all)?
So two questions, one is there something about this process that my group and I are missing?Hmmm, you seem to do it differently. In my experience, thaumaturgy is one of two things. It's either a relatively easy spell done mostly "off camera" or it becomes a group project and a mini-adventure in and of itself.
Hmmm, you seem to do it differently. In my experience, thaumaturgy is one of two things. It's either a relatively easy spell done mostly "off camera" or it becomes a group project and a mini-adventure in and of itself.
I don't find that a group making a grocery list is any more exciting than one person doing it personally.
I don't find that a group making a grocery list is any more exciting than one person doing it personally.Lists? I'm talking adventure. How do you acquire those items? That knowledge? If all you have to do is make a list to have the item appear you may well be skipping the fun. :)
I'm not trying to be argumentative or negative here but I'm honestly wondering what you're looking for Tallyrand? It seems most of us are satisfied with glossing over the small stuff (getting small rituals out of the way quickly and with minimum effort) and going epic for the big stuff (making entire adventures around a ritual), so what are you looking for? Help us understand where you are at so that maybe we can provide a helpful solution.
Another question is how often are you (or your players) using thaumaturgy to solve a problem? Over the last five or six sessions with my group I think we might have used it five times. It was never more than a few minutes of any given session.
Werewolf's Blood and Angel's Tears are all fine examples of ritual materials if you're trying to pull off some very unusual spell, but most of the time everything you need can be found at a hardware store.That's why easy spells are "off camera". No point in doing more than making a single role and moving on.
As often as Harry talks about using Mouse Scampers there's someone using store bought glitter or silly putty. Also, even if we went with a mandate that ritual ingredients have to be WEIRD that would present with it's own problem. Now, every time my group wants to do a ritual the GM has to write an entire side adventure specifically for the Wizard. This also seems to be to be a not fun solution.Specifically for the wizard? If it's not important enough to involve the whole group, it probably should be off camera.
Personally that seems like a bit of an irritating idea from a players perspective. With a system like that no matter what you do or how hard you prepare it's still entirely up to random chance and 30% odds is pretty terrible.
By the current rules, a character with thaumatergy could do just about anything as long as they had a decent lore and enough time.FATE doesn't simulate "doing something". It's far more about building a narrative. As narratives differ from one group to another, so will how the mechanics are applied.
By the current rules, a character with thaumatergy could do just about anything as long as they had a decent lore and enough time.Actually, that's not true. Several things limit the power of thumaturgy;
Actually, that's not true. Several things limit the power of thumaturgy;
1) Thaumaturgy spells are fairly costly. To reliably kill someone, you need 30 shifts of power. Trapping the Erlking should be comparable, if not more difficult. And that is for fairly small, personal effects. Meteor from the Sky would be at least 60 shifts, if not more. So Lore of +5 is not going to cut it.
2) Skill declarations are not guaranteed and they should rise in difficulty as a skill is used more or the spell is getting bigger. Magic circle for a 10-shift ritual may be some chalk line on the floor. Magic circle for trapping a major entity is so complicated that only grandmasters could make it.
3) You need to control the power. A discipline of at least +5 is required to safely control power and interruptions (reflected as compels or aspects) can worsen your roll and make you fail - that makes the power explode in your face.
4) Thaumaturgy takes time. If the preparation is just a few quick declarations, nothing bad happens. But if you need to be focusing for hours at a time and then speak the incantation perfectly for an hour-long casting time, Endurance is going to limit your skills. This means you won't be getting as high rolls out of them - which leads to failures.
5) It bears mentioning twice; losing control of the power is BAD. If a ritual would take more than a scene, events keep unfolding in the world and may affect the ritual.
6) Thaumaturgy needs a sympathetic link. Getting someone's nail clippings, blood, True Name and the like can be an adventure unto itself.
Ah, then your group has never had to defend the caster from the bad guys long enough for him to cast the ritual that would seal the Outer Gates again. Or they have not been doing group thaumaturgy where they help the wizard with their own skills; a very skilled individual without magic may be able to provide more preparation to a ritual than the wizard himself.
And they certainly haven't had to deal with the burning building or demonic appearances or terrifying illusions when the spell gets interrupted by someone or something.
I guess my problem is that to do it "correctly" for a large ritual like that, it would take half a session - focused on one PC's "thing".While I wouldn't designate it as 'correct', this is what I was talking about. You either have a minor spell the wizard does with a bit of narrative and a roll or two or you have a significant spell where you involve the whole group.
For a game where the ritual is a large part of the plot, I think that the storyteller and group could make it work to be fun.