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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Watson on May 26, 2011, 05:56:55 PM

Title: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Watson on May 26, 2011, 05:56:55 PM
In Blood Rites, Harry wants to get the magic of one of his enemies “locked down”, and I am thinking about how he would go about doing that by using the rules. I assume that it is Thaumaturgy, and that the strength/complexity of the ritual acts like a block against magic. Complexity is based on the strength of the block, the area covered (+2 per zone?) and the duration.

If so, would it negate all magic inside the area (unless the power of the spell cast is equal or higher than the block strength? Would it be possible to target only one individual and block just that person’s magic (given a proper symbolic link) within the area? Would it even be possible to create an effect so that the magic of the target would be blocked regardless of if he or she moves away? In that case, it seems like a bit too powerful, given that a Wizard with Discipline 5+ can cast very high Complexity rituals with little or no real risk of failure.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: devonapple on May 26, 2011, 06:11:05 PM
I think I recall that Harry's effect was targeting the enemy spellcaster directly, through line of sight or a sympathetic link, and wasn't bound to a location. It *may* have even been Evocation, albeit a very strong one with a bolstered duration.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: MijRai on May 26, 2011, 06:16:10 PM
I'd say yes to most of those. Privded you have a target zone or a link to the living target, you should be able to do so. You still have to put shifts to duration as well though. And Discipline is for control, you want Lore and Conviction for Complexity. You'd have to set the block at a level at a few shifts over the defender's level, and throw in the zone cost or link requirement.

It isn't overpowered, since it is a wizard negating a wizard, and if the guy who did it went in the zone he affected, he couldn't cast a spell either unless he hadded even more shifts to get himself around it.

Devonapple, Harry never did anything to block magic like that in Blood Rites (besides the re-route lines). Ebenezar was in charge of that part, and we don't know exactly what he did. Since Mavra got away unharmed as far as we can tell, it didn't work well either.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Haru on May 26, 2011, 06:17:36 PM
Yes, it would be a simple block against magic. Standard duration for thaumaturgy would be 1 scene, which should be all you need anyway.

If you put the block on a person, yes he is going to be affected even if he moves. You wouldn't need to cover an area, if the target is a person. Best thing to avoid this: don't leave symbolic links around.

Covering an area would be possible, but I think getting a symbolic link for that specific area could be difficult in some places.

If you want, you could let the target make a lore roll to see if he detects the magic about to be thrown at him. Harry seems to be able to sense the curse coming in in BR, so it should be possible for others as well. You could do it as a race between lore of the target and the shifts already put into the spell, though the caster should have a headstart of at least one exchange. Or you could simply take the casters discipline - the shifts gathered this exchange, so the faster you draw the power, the more likely someone is to notice it, which would make sense (at least to me).

@devonapple
Didn't he have Ebenezar outside to shut her down? He would most certainly have used thaumaturgy there. And if not, in Grave Peril Harry did something with thaumaturgy to Kravos (Or else he wouldn't have needed that hair and the doll).
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: devonapple on May 26, 2011, 06:47:49 PM
in Grave Peril Harry did something with thaumaturgy to Kravos (Or else he wouldn't have needed that hair and the doll).

That is what I was remembering. My mistake.

Although the symapthetic link makes a strong case for Thaumaturgy, those Aspects ("Hair of Kravos" and "Doll of Kravos") could still be used in an Evocation, for the control roll if nothing else.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Haru on May 26, 2011, 06:51:59 PM
That is what I was remembering. My mistake.

Although the symapthetic link makes a strong case for Thaumaturgy, those Aspects ("Hair of Kravos" and "Doll of Kravos") could still be used in an Evocation, for the control roll if nothing else.

True, but it would be stupid, since he had all the time in the world (or at least enough) to do the ritual. If Kravos had surprised them, he could have used them to boost an evocation, of course. Though in a straight up fight I think he would have preferred his shield bracelet.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Belial666 on May 26, 2011, 09:39:13 PM
First of all, you don't target an area or a person. You target the building they are in with a Ward vs magic.

Secondly, a good enough photo is a sympathetic link to a building. But since Ebenezar was right there, he has no problem walking up to the building and touching it or, if he had to do it by distance, taking a few chips of the wall for a link.

Third, in order to differentiate between Harry's magic and Mavra's magic in the Ward, you do one of two things; you give Harry permission through your ward so it does not inhibit him or you make a Ward specific against black magic. Not being alive, vampires automatically use the same source of power as Necromancy.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Becq on May 26, 2011, 10:37:14 PM
A ward is a threshold.  It would inhibit magic crossing the threshold, but would do nothing against two people slinging spells at each other entirely within the ward.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Belial666 on May 26, 2011, 11:32:15 PM
Actually, thresholds diminish the power of magic inside the entire building, not something crossing from the outside to the inside. So if a Ward works like a threshold, it does exactly that; reduce powers of those people not invited.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Haru on May 26, 2011, 11:46:02 PM
I don't think a homeless shelter invaded by Black Court Vampires would have enough of a threshhold left to keep out anything, so a ward might not be doable in that situation. For a short term ward, which I would call a block if it doesn't last at least a few days, it should still work like this.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Becq on May 27, 2011, 04:30:56 AM
Actually, thresholds diminish the power of magic inside the entire building, not something crossing from the outside to the inside. So if a Ward works like a threshold, it does exactly that; reduce powers of those people not invited.
I'm not sure where you're getting that.  Every reference I found refered to crossing, not being within.  A few examples from the section on thresholds (YS230):

"the word threshold is used to describe the barrier that is formed around a home"
"In the broadest sense, the term “threshold” may be given to any metaphysical barrier that impedes or blocks supernatural power from passing from point A to point B." <-- (This basic definition seems extremely clear)
"Some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold [...] If they cross a threshold without counteracting it"
"when an entity crosses a threshold"
"crossing a threshold doesn’t make the wizard melt"
"a wizard crossing a threshold uninvited leaves a large amount of his supernatural power"
"Even a spell that tries to cross a threshold may be diminished."
"Many spell effects and some supernatural abilities will erode or completely disappear if they are carried across a threshold"
"such entities are particularly vulnerable to crossing thresholds. They may actually take damage from crossing one"

Please direct me to any place in the rules where it states anything about what effect a ward might have on anything already inside?  The only related reference I could find is the protective wards used when summoning, which keep the demon from escaping but otherwise have no impact on them.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: zenten on May 27, 2011, 02:56:49 PM
"a wizard crossing a threshold uninvited leaves a large amount of his supernatural power"

Right there.  You cross a threshold, and all your magic is blocked by the threshold, even if you cast it while inside it.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: devonapple on May 27, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
Right there.  You cross a threshold, and all your magic is blocked by the threshold, even if you cast it while inside it.

Yes, the strength of the Threshold acts as a persistent Block on all non-permitted (uninvited) magical effects.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Tedronai on May 27, 2011, 05:24:54 PM
Except that Mavra was already INSIDE this hypothetical ward, and thus never would have had to cross it, and never would have had to leave any of her power behind.
Beyond that, a Ward is not a Threshold.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Becq on May 27, 2011, 08:09:44 PM
Right there.  You cross a threshold, and all your magic is blocked by the threshold, even if you cast it while inside it.
Right.  But the suppression is triggered by crossing the threshold, not simply by being in it.  The act of crossing the threshold has an effect that persists.  This is very much the equivalent of a bouncer requiring a guy with a gun to leave it at the door as he enters.  Until he gets the gun back on his way out, the benefit of owning that gun is going to be 'suppressed'.  If, on the other hand, the guy was already inside with the gun before the bouncer showed up, then the bouncer being there has no impact on him or his gun.

Another analogy would be a castle moat.  If you try to cross the moat when the drawbridge is up, you might get dragged under by the weight of your armor.  If you make it across, you are likely to be tired from your exersion.  If you were carrying a musket, it might well be useless until the powder dries out.  But if you'd snuck across the drawbridge the day before the battle when it was still down, then the presence of the moat is going to have zero impact on your musket.

Yes, the strength of the Threshold acts as a persistent Block on all non-permitted (uninvited) magical effects.
But only those that *crossed* the threshold.

Perhaps someone with a better memory or the books handy could confirm this: didn't Dresden, while discussing the subject, indicate that the loss of magic lasted for some extended period of time, reqardless of what the Wizard did thereafter?  I think it was when Murphy was concerned about Dresden being impersonated by a spirit, and Dresden stepped into her house without invitation to prove he was human, knowing that the loss of magic would leave him vulnerable even after he'd left the house?
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: devonapple on May 27, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
But only those that *crossed* the threshold.

I agree.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Warderbrad on May 27, 2011, 09:04:30 PM
Perhaps someone with a better memory or the books handy could confirm this: didn't Dresden, while discussing the subject, indicate that the loss of magic lasted for some extended period of time, reqardless of what the Wizard did thereafter?  I think it was when Murphy was concerned about Dresden being impersonated by a spirit, and Dresden stepped into her house without invitation to prove he was human, knowing that the loss of magic would leave him vulnerable even after he'd left the house?

Quote from: Butcher-Summer-Knight-Chapter7
I got it then. Murphy wasn't going to ask me in. There are plenty of monsters running around in the dark that can't violate the threshold of a home if they aren't invited in. One of them had caught up to Murphy last year, nearly killing her, and it had been wearing my face when it did it. No wonder she didn't look exactly overjoyed to see me.
"Murph," I said, "relax. It's me. Hell's bells, there isn't anything that I can think of that would mimic me looking like this. Even demonic fiends from the nether regions of hell have some taste."
I stepped across her threshold. Something tugged at me as I did, an intangible, invisible energy. It slowed me down a little, and I had to make an effort to push through it. That's what a threshold is like. One like it surrounds every home, a field of energy that keeps out unwanted magical forces. Some places have more of a threshold than others. My apartment, for example, didn't have much of a threshold—it's a bachelor pad, and whatever domestic energy is responsible for such things doesn't seem to settle down as well in rental spaces and lone dwellings. Murphy's house had a heavy field surrounding it. It had a life of its own; it had history. It was a home, not just a place to live.
I crossed her threshold uninvited, and I left a lot of my power at the door as I did. I would have to really push to make even the simplest of spells work within. I stepped inside and spread my hands. "Do I pass inspection?"
It never says that it lasts longer than the wizard stays in the home which created the threshold, in fact it says leaves it at the door, which is more akin to the gun and bouncer analogy.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Watson on May 28, 2011, 09:02:57 AM
In Blood Rites, Dresden seems to have no problems casting evocation while inside the building. This means, assuming the "lockdown" is in place at all, that it can be directed against one specific individual.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Haru on May 28, 2011, 09:26:23 AM
I don't think the lockdown in BR was a threshold, because as I said before, the building didn't have a threshold to work with. And if Ebenezar did a block on the place, he would certainly account for Harry and exclude him from the lockdown. It would, under the circumstances, be a whole lot easier in any case, because what link would he have had to target Mavra?
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Falar on May 28, 2011, 02:04:15 PM
It would, under the circumstances, be a whole lot easier in any case, because what link would he have had to target Mavra?
Gee, why would the wetworks man of the White Council have a sample of one of the biggest threats from the more-or-less defunct Black Court? :P

Although, I think it's as easy as taking into account what Harry noticed, what the Black Court (and the Red, IIRC) uses for magic is not tapping the same source as Mortal Magic. What Ebenezer could have been doing was placing a several-zone's wide block against Vampire Magic, or against the source of Mavra's magic. Seeing as he's more than likely fought a Black Court sorcerer (and maybe even fought Mavra), he knows what he's blocking against.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: citadel97501 on May 28, 2011, 07:37:45 PM
"Snarky Tone", Considering she is still alive, I doubt that they have fought before. 

(Just kidding around but think about it during Changes,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Falar on May 28, 2011, 07:46:40 PM
She had to perfect the "Oh, wait, that was a fake me you killed" technique somewhere. :P
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: JustinS on May 29, 2011, 09:09:37 PM
So, the lockdown seemed a rather standard thing, and without a ritual link.

I'd see it as a block against ritual magic, or putting power into ritual magic, specifically.
Or creating a Special Skill of Non-evocation counter magic, that the person doing lockdown then used for the scene.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Watson on May 30, 2011, 10:28:33 AM
Yes, it must have been either specifically targeted towards Mavra or a general area block against only Thaumaturgy (is that possible?) as Harry was able to use Evocation while inside.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Tedronai on May 30, 2011, 10:46:24 AM
Mavra was a known sorceress with impressive evocation-like powers.  If only thaumaturgy had been affected, why did she not bring those powers to bear?  And why, with Mavra being known to have impressive evocation-like powers, would Eb only block thaumaturgy, even assuming that doing so would be possible?
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 30, 2011, 03:34:54 PM
How about this? (maybe not exactly what was done, but a good approximation)

Magic Lockdown
Complexity 22
12 shift block vs. Magic
Target All Black Court Vamps in Building
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Taran on June 01, 2011, 12:19:00 AM
Was Mavra successfully Locked down? I personally don't beleive so.

(click to show/hide)

Hmmmmm????
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Tedronai on June 01, 2011, 12:52:20 AM
As I recall, Eb specifically mentioned that he did not believe he would be successful at completely shutting her down, but that he would at the least dampen her power significantly.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: JustinS on June 01, 2011, 05:17:16 AM
The problem with targeting Marva or BCVs in general, is where is the ritual link?
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: NicholasQuinn on June 01, 2011, 09:06:07 AM
From Blood Rites:
(click to show/hide)

Would seem he doesn't need one. Or at least, that is one of the implicit suggestions. Although on the same page (269) he confesses he wouldn't be able to fully lock her down, and she might still remain 'annoying'.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on June 01, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
The problem with targeting Marva or BCVs in general, is where is the ritual link?

(click to show/hide)

Even without that, one could get a ritual link like the blood of a BCV, the dirt she sleeps in, wood from her coffin, a focus used for black magic, etc.  Just get creative.
Title: Re: Magical "lockdown" as in Blood Rites
Post by: Tedronai on June 01, 2011, 07:12:55 PM
Hmmm...'a focus used for black magic', you say?
Maybe Eb used
(click to show/hide)
, or his connection to it?