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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Holocron.Coder on May 26, 2011, 02:25:23 AM
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So, Refinement can give you +1 to two different element-stat areas (earth control, earth power, let's say). You can also get 2 item slots, which, assuming we go for focus slots, we get +1 to two different element-spec-stat (earth offense control, earth offense power).
The first bonus is clearly better, so why (outside of enchanted items) would you ever go for item slots? ???
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Specialization bonuses are subject to the same pyramid / column structure requirements as skills.
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So, Refinement can give you +1 to two different element-stat areas (earth control, earth power, let's say). You can also get 2 item slots, which, assuming we go for focus slots, we get +1 to two different element-spec-stat (earth offense control, earth offense power).
The first bonus is clearly better, so why (outside of enchanted items) would you ever go for item slots? ???
Specialty bonuses, require that you follow the pyramid, so after a certain point its always better to switch over to Foci which only require that all the bonuses on a Focus be the same amount. In addition it is entirely reasonable for a Foci being left behind, or broken as a compel from the ST providing you a fate point, this is a lot harder with specialty bonuses.
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Yeah, but even spreading the specialization bonus out over other elements, it still comes ahead (and you can't be "disarmed" from the bonus).
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Focus items can increase your casting bonuses independent of two rather important restrictions.
First, specializations have to follow the "stack" like skills. Focus items do not. This allows you greater specialization at the cost of versatility and effectiveness.
Second, specializations are limited by your Lore (to a maximum of +5 at Superb). Focus items can add to this.
Thus, to get a +5 in Control for one element, it would cost 7 refresh (1 point from evocation, the other 14 from Refinement 7 times) using specialization (reasonably this can be met at 6 refresh if you put both your evocation Focus Item Slots into Offensive and Defensive Control).
Using items, you end up with it costing 4 refresh (first items go into offensive and defensive control, refinement 4 times for 8 additional focus items in the same). This can reasonably be met at 3 refresh if you assume your evocation specialization is in Control for the same element.
The benefit of the 7 refresh option is that you're good with other elements and don't need to have your foci with you. The benefit of the items option is that it is cheaper to get to bigger numbers. Of course, the two can and should be used together.
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Focus items can increase your casting bonuses independent of two rather important restrictions.
First, specializations have to follow the "stack" like skills. Focus items do not. This allows you greater specialization at the cost of versatility and effectiveness.
Second, specializations are limited by your Lore (to a maximum of +5 at Superb). Focus items can add to this.
Thus, to get a +5 in Control for one element, it would cost 7 refresh (1 point from evocation, the other 14 from Refinement 7 times) using specialization (reasonably this can be met at 6 refresh if you put both your evocation Focus Item Slots into Offensive and Defensive Control).
Hrmm. I suppose it makes sense, put like this. I though the pyramid applied to items as well. The bonus on items has to be the same for all aspects? No +2 earth offensive control, +1 earth offensive power?
Using items, you end up with it costing 4 refresh (first items go into offensive and defensive control, refinement 4 times for 8 additional focus items in the same). This can reasonably be met at 3 refresh if you assume your evocation specialization is in Control for the same element.
The benefit of the 7 refresh option is that you're good with other elements and don't need to have your foci with you. The benefit of the items option is that it is cheaper to get to bigger numbers. Of course, the two can and should be used together.
That makes sense to me, I suppose. The focus item bonuses have to be the same? No +2 earth offensive control, +1 earth offensive power focus item?
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Yeah, but even spreading the specialization bonus out over other elements, it still comes ahead (and you can't be "disarmed" from the bonus).
Sure. And this is generally what I tend to lean towards - if only to avoid carrying a duffel bag full of focus items. However...a wizard with six refresh spent on refinements might have either of the following:- Specializations only
- Wind +3 (power & control)
- Water +2
- Spirit +1
- One specialization, six points of focus items
- Wind Spec +1 (power & control)
- Offensive Focus Item # 1 & 2 - +5 (assuming Lore is high enough)
So the second wizard gains +6 to offensive wind spells while the first is at +3. Of course the second wizard did so at the cost of (fairly) extreme specialization...and very large focus items.
Granted, this isn't a likely scenario. Most will have more of a mix of specializations and focus items. Whether a wizard leans towards being really good at one thing or learning several options is up to individual taste and personality. Overall, that's a good thing. :)
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Exactly. I personally prefer something along the lines of this (assuming Submerged, standard Wizard Template).
Superb Discipline and Conviction, Great Lore
Evocation Specialization Bonus and Focus Items: +1 Earth Control
Evocation Focus Items: +1 Offensive Earth Control, +1 Defensive Earth Power
Refinement 1 Specialization: +2 Earth Control, +1 Earth Power
Refinement 2 Focus Items: +2 Offensive Earth Control, 2 Enchanted Item Slots
This'll leave me with a total of attacks at Legendary+1 and the ability to call up 7 shifts blocks as rote spells (Epic control). I can still cast other spells at Superb (say with Spirit and Air). In addition, I haven't over specialized (not used any of my Thaum foci for Evocation, still have some enchanted items).
[Note, my numbers are running totals, not actual bonuses from the power]
If I wanted to build a combat specialized caster, it would look more like:
Evocation Specialization Bonus: +1 Earth Control
Evocation Focus Items: +1 Offensive Earth Control, +1 Defensive Earth Power
Thaumaturgy Focus Items: +2 Offensive Earth Control, +2 Defensive Earth Power
Refinement 1 (Specialization): +2 Earth Control, +1 Earth Power
Refinement 2 (Focus Items): +3 Offensive Earth Control, +1 Defensive Earth Control
This pushes me to Legendary+2 attacks and 8 shift rote blocks.
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If you work with a five element system, then the degree of specialization is severely limited. Theoretically, you could have 2 Fantastic, 2 Great, 2 Good, 2 Fair, & 2 Average. However I haven't seen a rule that allows you to retrain your specializations, which restricts you A LOT. Here's my math.
For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to replace the 10 things you can specialize with letters A - J.
A B C D E F G H I J
0 1 2 2 4 6 7 8 11 13
1 3 4 6 9 11 13
3 5 9 12
5 10
10
0 Is what you get by taking evocation. Numbers are Refinement numbers. So 12 is the 12th time you take refinement. If you can find a better pyramid please show me
Notice, you cannot take another rank at +1 because there's nothing for you to take it in. You can't take another rank in +2 because then you have 4 +2's and 2 +1's. You can't take another rank in +3 because then you have 3 +3's and 2 +2's. You can't take another rank in +4 because then you have 2 +4's and 1 +3. You can't take another rank in +5 because then you have 2 +5's and 0 +4's. So that's as high as you can get. 1 Superb, 1 Great, 2 Goods, 3 Fairs, and 3 Averages.
Unless there's some rule I can't find that would allow you to retrain this (and if there is please show me), or your table houserules it, then that's the inherent limit of Specialization. And even if you have some way to retrain, you're still locked by the theoretical pyramid mentioned ahead (with 2 in each step). So mixing and matching Item slots and specialization slots is pretty useful. And since it takes 10 refresh by my count for 1 Superb via specialization, or 3 refresh for an item.
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So, Refinement can give you +1 to two different element-stat areas (earth control, earth power, let's say). You can also get 2 item slots, which, assuming we go for focus slots, we get +1 to two different element-spec-stat (earth offense control, earth offense power).
The first bonus is clearly better, so why (outside of enchanted items) would you ever go for item slots? ???
Only wizards can take the first option. Sorcerers and focused practitioners can only take items.
-EF
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@ Eldritch: Sorcerers can get one level of (unrestricted) refinement per skill (Evocation/Thaumaturgy).
@ Obsid: You needn't buy Refinements one at a time. Save up a couple of Refresh, then spend them together. Note also that Sponsored Magic gives you additional 'elements' to focus in, which increases your theoretical maximum, but also note that your specializations are capped by your Lore.
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Only wizards can take the first option. Sorcerers and focused practitioners can only take items.
-EF
Actually not quite true. Sorcerers are restricted by the template to only being able to take a single Refinement (-1) per spell ability, i.e. a single instance of Refinement for Evocation and a single instance of Refinement for Thaumaturgy. What the sorcerer chooses to do with the options available from that point of Refinement is up to them. With Evocation it could be used to get additional focus item slots, Power or Control bonuses, or additional elements. Whatever the player and GM agree upon.
With a focused practioner, there is no restriction on their Refinements per the RAW.
Incidentally, and this would really be more of a house rule sort of thing, but I could see characters where the need to abide by the skill stack limits no longer applies, or that the stack limit has been 're-balanced'. Consider for instance the write-up for Gard. She has been running around for a millenium, and over the course of 1,000 years has had plenty of time to develop different skills. I could see where in an extremely long-running campaign, or with the entry of a plot-level character, that the ability to have a rank of at least Fair (+2) in every skill would be reasonable. I don't see why this couldn't also hold true for specializations, albeit I would expect that the only casters who this would apply to would be true masters like members of the Senior Council, or other similarly learned practioners.
In my opinion, a player who has a character that develops this sort of problem has likely been getting advanced a bit too faster, but that might just be me.
-Cheers
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With a focused practioner, there is no restriction on their Refinements per the RAW.
Templates restrict you to buying only those powers allowed by the template. Focused Practitioners cannot get specializations. (Though they could, for example, become a Sorcerer or Apprentice Wizard, then a Wizard, any of which would allow specializations.
Note, by the way, that the *real* restriction is that you can only buy powers that are appropriate to your High Concept. Templates are just a convenient package deal that defines guidelines for which powers should be considered appropriate. And are subject to adjustment, of course.
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If you have Ritual or Channeling, you can't use specializations.
This applies to Sponsored magic as well.
You can still take Refinement for items.
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One more thing that Focus Items can do that Specialization Bonuses cannot:
Focus Item-Bonuses can be changed.
Once you buy a specialization bonus it's fixed. Not so a Focus item... it can be changed at certain milestones.
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One more thing that Focus Items can do that Specialization Bonuses cannot:
Focus Item-Bonuses can be changed.
Once you buy a specialization bonus it's fixed. Not so a Focus item... it can be changed at certain milestones.
I do agree that's the by-the-book way it's done, but I feel like that goes against every other part of the system where players are allowed to tweak their character over time. Skills, Aspects, Stunts, even Powers (I think) can be added and removed or reconfigured at appropriate plot points and milestones. It makes no sense to me that specializations would be the one exception.
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Yeah, I would probably count the specializations as kind of like a skill. So at milestones when you would normally be allowed to swap two skills in your skill pyramid, you could choose to swap two specializations instead. Not by the book, but I think it's reasonable and in-line with the design philosophy of the game.
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Keep in mind you can also make specialized foci.
A foci that can only be used for a specific spell gets a +1 bonus. You might have a house rule that a foci that is only usable once a session is also more efficient.
Enchanted items are really only effective if you have a high Lore. If you have only a 3 lore, your enchanted items won't be that great.
You could have a warrior wizard:
5 conviction, 5 discipline
4 weapon, 4 athletics
3 lore, 3 endurance
They have their warden sword, a refinement in Evocation for a total of +1 power +2 control in their main element, and put 2 item slots into +2 power +2 control, only for 1 rote spell.
That is a nice healthy 7 power spell they can cast on the move.
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The +2 bonus thing when used for a specific spell is pretty key for things like Block spells. If you're throwing up a shield, you can get +1 to both Defensive Control and Defensive Power (it says it works as if you had a free slot). Not bad for one focus item slot.
Basically, though, the difference between specializations and focus items is a difference between versatility and power. You can get more power from FI, but Specs are more versatile.
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A foci that can only be used for a specific spell gets a +1 bonus. You might have a house rule that a foci that is only usable once a session is also more efficient.
Personally, I've thought about bumping up the specific spell bonus to a +2, just because I haven't really seen people make a whole lot of use out of it.
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Personally, I've thought about bumping up the specific spell bonus to a +2, just because I haven't really seen people make a whole lot of use out of it.
I see it used for bread and butter attack and shield spells. Not necessarily for Rotes (a +2 control bonus probably means you don't need a rote) when it comes to attacks, but definitely when it comes to defense (that first round shield spell that you want to pump as much in as possible and then persist).
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I wouldn't want to see the bonus increased for specific-spell foci. But I would like to see it scale better. As-is, you'd really only want to take it for small foci.
Also, a touch more versatility wouldn't hurt. If such foci could benefit a spell when it's cast at multiple different power levels, it probably wouldn't hurt the game.
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How would you do a foci that can only be used once a session?
Would you just double the bonus, like you half the bonus to get an always up enchanted item?
So you could have a +4 power, +4 control, only for one spell, once per session, for 2 item slots.
Or maybe +2 defensive power spirit, +2 defensive control spirit, once per session
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How would you do a foci that can only be used once a session?
Would you just double the bonus, like you half the bonus to get an always up enchanted item?
So you could have a +4 power, +4 control, only for one spell, once per session, for 2 item slots.
Or maybe +2 defensive power spirit, +2 defensive control spirit, once per session
Just a quick note, there is no surcharge for "always on" enchanted items. It works when it's needed, and every use beyond the amount invested costs 1 mental stress.
That rule was changed from the original PDF to the updated PDF.
-EF
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How would you do a foci that can only be used once a session?
Would you just double the bonus, like you half the bonus to get an always up enchanted item?
So you could have a +4 power, +4 control, only for one spell, once per session, for 2 item slots.
Or maybe +2 defensive power spirit, +2 defensive control spirit, once per session
Personally, I wouldn't. I don't think it is thematically appropriate.