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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Crion on May 24, 2011, 01:02:54 AM

Title: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Crion on May 24, 2011, 01:02:54 AM

As some of you may know, I'm using the DFRPG to run a non-standard setting. One of my new players offered a brilliant idea for a character, and I am curious as to how some of you would use or make this.

The character had a demonic sponsor in the form of Wrath during a war. The character outwitted Wrath thanks to the wording of the agreement (power in exchange for tasks during the war; the war ended, contract was over), but now has the attention of the others of the demonic court due to her actions, especially the Lady of Subversion (Lust), who is now her new "sponsor" to aid in her newest task.

The player mentioned the possibility of having to "change sponsors," so to speak, as her "patron" will pawn her off to the others of the court as a way to pay off other debts.

With this in mind, would the Sponsored Magic ability change with the new "sponsor," or do you believe the original patron's magic would stand? Additionally, do you think Sponsored Magic is the way to go, or do you thing a sponsored "Modular Abilities" would be a better choice?

--Crion

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Becq on May 24, 2011, 01:28:26 AM

First off, Sponsored Magic is specific to a given power source.  Different power source, different Sponsored Magic power.  Now in your case, it might not be a different sponsor.  If both demons are granting access to 'Hellfire', for example, then the power source (and the ultimate sponsor) remains the same; it's just a different spokesman.  If the two demons 'represented' different power sources/sponsors, then the power should be changed.

Up to you how you do this.  It could be a behind-the-scenes narration of a ritual in which the new demon burns out the traces of the old power and replaces it with the new power.  It could be that the old power gets removed, but the refresh return to get re-spent more slowly.  Perhaps in the meantime, the character is granted 'temporary access' to the new power, but has to take on debt for each use until the refresh is paid.

But the bottom line is that if you and the player and the group are cool with the change (and it sounds as though you are), then just find a dramatic way of making it happen.  (But it should be more than just erasing the old power and penciling in the new one.)

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Crion on May 24, 2011, 02:58:16 AM

Quote from: Becq on May 24, 2011, 01:28:26 AM

First off, Sponsored Magic is specific to a given power source.  Different power source, different Sponsored Magic power.  Now in your case, it might not be a different sponsor.  If both demons are granting access to 'Hellfire', for example, then the power source (and the ultimate sponsor) remains the same; it's just a different spokesman.  If the two demons 'represented' different power sources/sponsors, then the power should be changed.

Up to you how you do this.  It could be a behind-the-scenes narration of a ritual in which the new demon burns out the traces of the old power and replaces it with the new power.  It could be that the old power gets removed, but the refresh return to get re-spent more slowly.  Perhaps in the meantime, the character is granted 'temporary access' to the new power, but has to take on debt for each use until the refresh is paid.

But the bottom line is that if you and the player and the group are cool with the change (and it sounds as though you are), then just find a dramatic way of making it happen.  (But it should be more than just erasing the old power and penciling in the new one.)

Thank for the input, Becq. To add a few more notes, now that I have a few spare minutes:

The setting has seven demon "lords," each one representing one of the seven deadly sins. While each lord isn't a one trick pony (as they were heavy hitters in the first place, then took the mantles of each sin as a means of gaining even more prestige and power), they do focus a bit on their specialty.
For this player, she was thinking of having the trouble aspect of "Pawn of the Demon Lords," which I can invoke to have her run off to do something, act in accordance to her "sponsor," or even do the aforementioned change "owners" for a set time as her patron needs to settle a debt (this would be the equivalent of Maab lending Lloyd Slate to Titania, but making Titania give him his powers instead). We were thinking that, at some inopportune times, her sponsor would decide to give her to another demon lord for a time, which will radically change the magic she has access to, which also makes her rethink what she has at her disposal.

Now, as for your note on power sources: it is technically each sponsor. While the Demon Lords work for overall Entropy (as this setting as Entropy/Chaos and Law/Order instead of your typical Gods/Demons dichotomy), they are still powered in their own way, so I am ruling each as their own sponsor. For the most part, each one will offer magic specific to their own forte; Lust and Envy would focus on the equivalent of mental whammies (think Incite Emotion and a little bit of Dominate) and Glamours while Wrath would offer whatever magical abilities of destruction the caster can think of (but no so much on the fine tuning).

I like your note on the "temporary access" side of things; I may have to keep that in mind as an RP-stunt at a later time.

Thanks again for the input!

--Crion

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Becq on May 24, 2011, 04:02:15 AM

And by the way, it might be that the 'sponsored magic' for a lust demon looks quite a lot like the emotion control powers of a white court vamp.  So instead of creating a variant of the Sponsored Magic power, just give the character Incite Emotion, possibly with one or more of the upgrades.  In fact, accepting power from the lust demon might actually turn the character into a white court vamp (either slowly or rapidly) -- so add Emotional Vampire, and if you decide that the physical powers are part of the package, then require Feeding Dependency as well.

If you do something like this, I'd suggest running it per the section on Changelings.  Let the player decide how deeply she dives in.  If she sticks with just Incite, then so be it (she'd remain the equivalent of a white court virgin), but be sure to dangle those optional goodies in front of her from time to time.

You might decide that in your world, that's how the white court originally came to be...

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Crion on May 24, 2011, 12:24:14 PM

Quote from: Becq on May 24, 2011, 04:02:15 AM

And by the way, it might be that the 'sponsored magic' for a lust demon looks quite a lot like the emotion control powers of a white court vamp.  So instead of creating a variant of the Sponsored Magic power, just give the character Incite Emotion, possibly with one or more of the upgrades.  In fact, accepting power from the lust demon might actually turn the character into a white court vamp (either slowly or rapidly) -- so add Emotional Vampire, and if you decide that the physical powers are part of the package, then require Feeding Dependency as well.

If you do something like this, I'd suggest running it per the section on Changelings.  Let the player decide how deeply she dives in.  If she sticks with just Incite, then so be it (she'd remain the equivalent of a white court virgin), but be sure to dangle those optional goodies in front of her from time to time.

You might decide that in your world, that's how the white court originally came to be...

That is a rather interesting idea. Brilliant, actually. The only problem I see with it is the change of the "sponsor." Would the powers of the PC then be revoked if she were, for example, to change from Lust to Wrath or Greed for some time?

I may have to use the idea of creating White Court-esque opponents when the party deals with the as-of-yet-uncreated Demonologists I have running around. . .

Originally, I was thinking of offering the character Modular Abilities to represent the ability to access whatever powers the sponsor is willing to offer (e.g. for Lust: Incite Emotion, Dominate, Glamours; for Wrath: Physical powers, Shapeshifting into a war form, etc). This way, if the character was in a situation where a power would be near useless (caught in a warzone with Sloth's powers, for example), they could argue that the patron wouldn't want them to be defenseless or killed (remember, the demons cover more than their allotted sin would note) and can choose a power to increase survival, but perhaps face a debt afterward.

Again, just my thoughts, but I'd appreciate more soundboarding and feedback.

Thanks again!

--Crion

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Becq on May 24, 2011, 11:05:25 PM

First of all, I thought I'd seen a section talking about losing/giving up powers and getting refresh refunded, but I can't find it now.  Regardless, I assume it's possible -- after all, if it wasn't, then Charity Carpenter would still have some spellflinging capabilities lurking on her sheet, right?  Or maybe a better example would be Dresden ... after all, he

(click to show/hide)

swapped out Hellfire for Soulfire

over the course of the novels, right?  Any change to your character sheet requires some justification, with things like skills requiring the least and things like High Concept and Template requiring the most.  But characters are supposed to be dynamic, so such changes are legit, with the right story behind them.

Ok, back to your character (or rather your player's character, but you know what I mean).  In order for the character to have the original sponsored magic in the first place, she needed to have a Template and High Concept that allowed it.  For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to go with Emmisary of Power as the template and "Soldier in Wrath's Army" for the High Concept.  As a character touched by Wrath's power, this entitles her to buy the Sponsored Magic (Hellfire, or whatever) power, among others.

Later in the story, she breaks free of Wrath's influence.  The GM and player agree that this split is legit, so the character's High Concept is changed, prepending "Former" to it.  She is no longer entitled to access to Hellfire, so that is removed.  If the character had other powers that were tied to Wrath, then they might be lost, too ... although if, for example, the character was a Sorcerer prior to becoming an Emissary, then it probably makes more sense to just revert to the Sorceror Template.

Some time later, the character draws the attention of Lust, and some sort of Bargain is made.  The High Concept is modified again, perhaps to "Playmate Of She Whose Affections Are Negotiable".  This now 'allows' her access to whatever powers you and your player decide are applicable; perhaps the ones we talked about above.

So, if she later frees herself again, or transfers allegience (which probably shouldn't be terribly easy to do very often, unless you see doing so as reasonable under your demon hierarchy), you do the same thing again.  Modify the High Concept, strip powers that are no longer available, and add new powers.

It's possible these changes should probably take time, too.  Losing powers could be fast, since the sponsor is just cutting the character off.  Gaining new powers could be slow or quick, depending on how it happens.  (For example, it took Dresden a long time to learn Wizarding, but how long did it take to acquire Hellfire?)  Or perhaps losing and gaining takes little time (due to it being 'sponsored'), but it takes some time for the refresh from lost powers to recover.  (In this case, if the player had previously unspent refresh, then she could spend that on new powers -- thus dropping her to a fairly low refresh temporarily -- then over time, the refresh previously spent on Wrath powers would return, and become available to either generate Fate or to be spent on new powers.

Note that all of the above are ideas, and little if any is RAW.  But maybe it gives you something to work with.

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Obsid on May 25, 2011, 12:34:43 AM

It looks like you have a specialized version of Sponsored Magic. The best way to approach Sponsored Magic (in my opinion) is to ask What first, then ask Who. For example, when your player first gets a sponsor, ask What sort of power she wants. Hellfire is the obvious choice. Who does she get it from? Wrath. So, for as long as she does as Wrath wishes, she has Hellfire. The war ends and her obligation to Wrath (though not her debt apparently) is ended.

Wrath trades her debt to Lust. Player has no obligation to Lust, but she does have a debt. Lust can make Player's life a living hell unless Player accepts an obligation, but she can't make Player do anything until then. Apparently Player accepts some sort of obligation (maybe she's tricked or doesn't understand that she has a Choice).

What does Player get? Again, Hellfire seems the obvious choice. Who does she get it from? Lust this time. Note that Hellfire is like gasoline, it doesn't care if it's fueling a Humvee or a Cadillac. But the sponsor might. Wrath might only grant Hellfire for violent magic, while Lust may only grant Hellfire for seductive magic. This doesn't change what the sponsored magic is, it just changes how it can be used.

Alternatively, instead of granting Hellfire, you can treat the sponsored magic more like Faerie magic. In this case the What changes every time she swaps hands. I wouldn't make this a modular power, just a list of magic types. So in addition to Mortal Magic, Seelie Magic, and Unseelie magic. You also have luxuria (lechery/lust) magic, gula (gluttony) magic, avaritia (avarice/greed) magic, acedia (acedia/discouragement) magic, ira (wrath) magic, invidia (envy) magic, and superbia (pride) magic. (Use the Latin names, makes it sound more fancy).

In opposition you can have 7 archangels representing the Virtues. So now you have Castitas (Chastity) magic, Temperantia (Temperance) magic, Caritas (Charity) magic,Industria (Diligence) magic, Patientia (Patience) magic, Humanitas (Kindness) magic, and Humilitas (Humility) magic. I listed those all in order so you can see which sin would be opposed to which virtue. This would be similar to the opposition of Seelie and Unseelie magic.

Now, if you really want to run a modular sponsored magic power, which I would reserve for someone who gets passed around a lot (which would be a sign of a game between the demons), then that's fine. In this case create a Modular Magic (sponsored) ability. Run it exactly like Modular Abilities, except instead of Form Points, grant Sponsor Points, and instead of the listed abilities, use something like the following list. Adictive Saliva, Breath Weapon, Echoes of the Beast, Pact Instincts, Spider Walk, Supernatural Sense, Glamours, Greater Glamours, Cloak of Shadows, Ghost Speaker, Marked by Power, Spirit Form, Domination, Incite Emotion, Psychometry, Mimic Abilities, Refinement, Lawbreaker, Blood Drinker, Emotional Vampire, and Feeding Dependance.

A few notes on that. One, the player should make a set of powers for a sponsor before officially accepting the sponsor. This list can be added to, but not until she has all of the powers already listed (if she lists 5 powers, she needs to have all 5 until getting a 6th). Two, the GM must approve of this list. Three, if she goes back to a sponsor she's already had, she should use the same list she did before.

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Crion on May 25, 2011, 04:30:16 PM

Thanks for the input so far, guys! Now to point a few points of my own out there:

@Becq:
I know that any changes require a reason, and the player is already well aware of that. What you explained is almost exactly what the character's past entails: she was a former Soldier of Wrath during the war, made a name for herself in the demonic courts due to her actions during the war and her ability to get out of her entire debt with Wrath (essentially had Debt to the Sponsor that was negated due to the loophole of "until the war ends"), and is now striking off on her own. I don't know what the player's High Concept will be just yet (but a part of it, "Blood Eldren," already denotes contact with demonic forces and darker powers), but her Trouble Aspect will be along the lines of "Plaything of the Demonic Court."

The information you have presented would be brilliant for someone who is shifting allegiances on their own free will or as a major escalation of the story, and would be fun to act out those transitions, but someone being handed over from sponsor to sponsor over a shorter period of time is the challenge here. Thank you for the input there, and I may have to use it at a later time (or with this character as it grows).

@Obsid:
You have parts of this correct. The character made a name for herself by essentially cheating Wrath out of the debt, which is why Lust was willing to make a deal. With the Trouble Aspect "Plaything of the Demonic Court," the player mentioned the idea of being "handed over" to another "sponsor" for a temporary amount of time as a way for Lust, her overall patron, to pay off debts she may have accrued or to gain favours from other members of the Court. For example, if Lust needs something from Sloth, Lust can offer "temporary use of a mortal champion" in exchange.

Demons in this game have a very difficult time existing outside of the Pale (think the Nevernever, but darker), and even when summoned, just walking around erodes their existence, so having a free-willed mortal that can be handed around as currency to take care of things is a pretty good thing to have.

Our first line of thought was the use Sponsored Magic geared to each Sponsor (as you already mapped out), where it allows certain types of magic and a +1 bonus to the specialized magic (e.g. Lust would allow the equivalent of psychomancy, but with a +1 Complexity and Control when promoting emotions related to Lust). This way, whenever her Sponsor changes, her magic changes thematically but not very much mechanically (e.g. swapping from Lust to Sloth will change the emotions that can be altered, but that's about it).

The other option was using the Modular Magic option you mentioned, but I feel as though it is a bit too clunky and limited, especially since this is an 8 Refresh character that must have Marked By Power. This leaves her with 6 points open, and if two of them are tied up to make it "modular," she becomes a not-so free-willed agent with very little by way of capabilities, as Lust alone would require Incite Emotion at a range and Glamours just to get the basics done, and that doesn't include Lasting Emotion and Dominate. Modular Powers also would remove some of the Thaumaturgy-based options, like summoning, binding, and divination, and would also remove that slippery slope of Sponsor Debt.


I'm hoping to work with the player a bit this weekend on her character, just to get it fleshed out a bit more before we drop it into the game next month. If anything fun comes up, I'll bring it back here. But feel free the keep the thoughts coming, everyone!

--Crion

Title: Re: Multiple Sponsors: Your approach?
Post by: Becq on May 26, 2011, 04:27:37 AM

Well, if the sponsor is handing the reins over (with or without approval), then you do the same thing, but with less free will involved.  Maybe hand the player a Fate point for a compel on their High Concept to change the High Concept, remove the old powers and add the new powers.  If the sponsors are amicable to the change, then I'd support the changover being quick if not instantaneous.