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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Obsid on May 20, 2011, 03:49:02 PM

Title: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Obsid on May 20, 2011, 03:49:02 PM
Places in the Nevernever are connected to each other and to the material realm through ideas rather than space right?

So... can I travel from a Burgerking in my hometown to a Burgerking in another part of the world with relative ease through the Nevernever?

I mean, conceptually speaking, fast-food joints have a lot more in common then they don't. Likewise post offices, and various other cookie-cutter facilities should be more alike than un. So it would stand to reason that they be connected to the same, if not nearby places in the Nevernever. Open a portal from my BK, take three steps, open a return portal, and there I am half a world away. Choose locations that are thematically connected to the dominion of a friend to make sure its safe, and you have travel made easy.

Or is there a catch 22 that I'm missing here.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: MijRai on May 20, 2011, 04:14:30 PM
The only catch I can see is the Burger King living on the other side not liking your trespassing. He'll fry you with the onion rings. :D It is a pretty good idea, so long as you keep in mind there could be something like a grease demon or a giant fetch shaped like a clown on the other side. Or, there could be a Wyld Court of pixies who like burgers the way others like pizza.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 20, 2011, 04:56:20 PM
Using the "ways" make a great shortcut, but I don't think there's a "concept to concept" correspondence.

Richard
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: MijRai on May 20, 2011, 05:00:35 PM
Using the "ways" make a great shortcut, but I don't think there's a "concept to concept" correspondence.

Richard

There is, to a degree. In the latest book,
(click to show/hide)
Thomas (and plenty of other supernatural beings) is able to cross over into portions of the NeverNever that are close to his self.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 20, 2011, 05:09:11 PM
I agree that it exist "to a degree", but I don't see it being a strong correlation.

There are hundreds of FBI buildings - do they all lead to the same place? No.

Would all Burger King locations lead to the "realm of the High Burger"? No.


There is no strong "enter here and leave there" rules to work with.  That's why it is so hard to map the Nevernever.

Richard
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: devonapple on May 20, 2011, 05:12:39 PM
There is no strong "enter here and leave there" rules to work with.  That's why it is so hard to map the Nevernever.

Once a link has been established, it sticks around for awhile (functionally, the whole campaign), but yeah, divining it in the first place is difficult.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: MijRai on May 20, 2011, 05:55:48 PM
They may not be strong, but they are still there. They can still be used. Cutting a 100-200 mile journey to 1 or 2 miles via the NeverNever can be quite useful.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on May 20, 2011, 05:56:00 PM
Part of the difficulty is that for all their cookie-cutter-ness, one Burger King is NOT the same as another.  The one located just outside Grand Central Station is going to have a different emotional feel (hurry hurry hurry) than the one in Middle-Class Suburb #42 (families eating with their kids) or the one in Bad Part of Town Full of Gangs (dirty, close to violence, etc.).  Thus, they'd likely resonate with different parts of the Nevernever
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: wyvern on May 20, 2011, 06:06:09 PM
On the other hand, what a great plot element: someone is setting up a new cookie-cutter restaurant chain, backed by the funds from hundreds of years of investment and compound interest.  The food?  The food is terrible.  The places are all mostly empty, all the same, staffed by bored workers, with only a rare customer who doesn't know better.  It's losing money hand over fist... and yet it's still expanding.  All because someone is trying to *build* a world travel network.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Set Abominae on May 20, 2011, 07:13:51 PM
What about a Burger King IN the Nevernever?  :o

"Would you like fries with that?" suddenly becomes much more ominous.

(that wasn't chicken)
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: admiralducksauce on May 20, 2011, 07:30:02 PM
Reminds me of Snow Crash, where even suburbs are franchised and you can go from one McHousing to another McHousing 3000 miles away and know where everything is.

I think that there's enough meat (heh heh) to this idea that it could work here and there, but I also agree that assuming that every BK leads to every other BK is (and should be, for game balance if nothing else) false.

White Castle, on the other hand, DOES lead anywhere you want to go, as long as where you want to go is Neil Patrick Harris.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Set Abominae on May 20, 2011, 07:58:00 PM
Reminds me of Snow Crash, where even suburbs are franchised and you can go from one McHousing to another McHousing 3000 miles away and know where everything is.

I think that there's enough meat (heh heh) to this idea that it could work here and there, but I also agree that assuming that every BK leads to every other BK is (and should be, for game balance if nothing else) false.

White Castle, on the other hand, DOES lead anywhere you want to go, as long as where you want to go is Neil Patrick Harris.

I'm having trouble having trouble with that  :-\

As long as I get a bagful of sliders and get to ride a cheetah.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: admiralducksauce on May 20, 2011, 08:32:00 PM
I'm having trouble having trouble with that  :-\

As long as I get a bagful of sliders and get to ride a cheetah.

Man, the other side of the Nevernever from a White Castle would be SO awesome.  I gotta spring that on my group someday.

That and the Sasquatch sequence from Pick of Destiny.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: BumblingBear on May 20, 2011, 09:10:20 PM
This thread is making me hungry.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Seb Wiers on May 20, 2011, 09:16:43 PM
Perhaps for franchise restaurants, there would be (in the case of very close copies) a one-way connection back to the original location (or the "flagship model", or whichever of the many franchises is the most archetypal).  But I can't see every franchise connecting to every other franchise in an open, multiu-directional network. 
Otherwise, you'd think never-never networks would have been created LONG ago between, say, the many churches of the Catholic franchise.  Magically speaking, one Catholic church is (at least intend to be) IDENTICAL to the next...
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Cyberchihuahua on May 21, 2011, 02:28:20 AM
Just remember that places are linked by concepts. What is the concept of any fast food restaurant?

A place where a large number of carnivorous go every day for an easy, prepackaged meal....
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: BumblingBear on May 21, 2011, 02:29:55 AM
Just remember that places are linked by concepts. What is the concept of any fast food restaurant?

A place where a large number of carnivorous go every day for an easy, prepackaged meal....

Diabolical.  And true.

If I were going to cross over to the nevernever someplace, I think I'd choose a dance studio or a gazebo that lots of couples get married in or something.

And I'd bring steel core bullets. :)
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: toturi on May 21, 2011, 01:22:47 PM
And I'd bring steel core bullets. :)
I'd probably bring FMSJ instead, unless those steel core bullets have steel tipped penetrators.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Obsid on May 21, 2011, 01:49:39 PM
So I'm hearing a few strong nos. Several yeses. And countless buts.

I had actually thought about indicating geographic and cultural limitations in my first post. But I figured I wouldn't need to elaborate too much, since it's the basic idea that I'm talking about.

I was actually thinking Fast-food joints would be connected to some grim place associated with the ideas of stressful servitude and leisurely gluttony, not a pleasant place unless you're on the right side of the line. (get it, line? like the line to the cashier?). But the exact cookie-cutter establishments aren't important. I chose Burgerking because it was the first place that popped to mind, and I remembered a line or two from the books.

I agree that, "if they worked that way, someone would have taken advantage of it before" but who's to say they haven't?
(click to show/hide)
But maybe there's a special requirement. Like a metaphysical anchor
(click to show/hide)
Just because we don't know of someone who's done it, doesn't mean they haven't. It might mean that a lot of people have failed. But it's not like someone who succeeded would share their secrets.

So are there rules that would hinder this, or just a lack of rules to make it reliable?[/color]
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: toturi on May 21, 2011, 02:13:13 PM
So are there rules that would hinder this, or just a lack of rules to make it reliable?
I think it would be more of the latter than the former.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Falar on May 21, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
Thinking over it, I think your main problem would be the length of time a particular burger joint has been there - relatively unchanged. Of about a dozen places in my hometown, none of them are both a.) in the same location or b.) modeled the same as they were as when I was a teenager. That's a space of under ten years. I'm guessing that it would take a bit of time for a solid enough link to be mapped to be developed and it would have to be to a solid enough place. Burger joints are always in flux, even McDonald's, the king of the chains.

Now, thinking about the places where links have been developed to? The Pyramids? They've been around a while. A strip club? I don't know about your experiences, but the strip joints around where I'm at have been around a LONG time and it's probably not even all of those that form a solid, mappable link.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Obsid on May 21, 2011, 03:15:37 PM
Thinking over it, I think your main problem would be the length of time a particular burger joint has been there - relatively unchanged. Of about a dozen places in my hometown, none of them are both a.) in the same location or b.) modeled the same as they were as when I was a teenager. That's a space of under ten years. I'm guessing that it would take a bit of time for a solid enough link to be mapped to be developed and it would have to be to a solid enough place. Burger joints are always in flux, even McDonald's, the king of the chains.

Now, thinking about the places where links have been developed to? The Pyramids? They've been around a while. A strip club? I don't know about your experiences, but the strip joints around where I'm at have been around a LONG time and it's probably not even all of those that form a solid, mappable link.

I think I see a good point here, but in theory a link can be created to the nevernever from anywhere. Where it leads depends on the ideas behind the place. The fact that mortal facilities, and on top of that cookie-cutter facilities are constantly moving around and remodeling, plus that many of them are fairly young compared to what might have been there before. That's a good reason why they wouldn't all lead to the same place. How long does it take to change the nevernever parallel from one place to another if it's been untamed marshland for the past thousand years?
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Tallyrand on May 21, 2011, 05:16:11 PM
Yeah, to parrot much of what's already been said (Emotional resonance is more important that physical resonance etc) I would say that while many Burgerkings would likely go so similar places (if they're Burgerkings that serve similar areas) but it would be a very unreliable mode of transportation.  If I was going to make a character who takes advantage of business chains I would go for something that's larger and had a greater emotional resonance.  For example I think that the center of one big box store would be pretty similar to the center of another, or that the middle of most movie theaters would lead to a similar place in the Nevernever.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Arcane on May 21, 2011, 05:55:09 PM
How about airports?  They're travel nexi already, and thousands of travellers pass through them everyday to reinforce the resonance that these are places one goes to to travel from one place to another.   Might they not be the site of useful crossroads in the Nevernever?
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Tallyrand on May 21, 2011, 06:01:37 PM
How about airports?  They're travel nexi already, and thousands of travellers pass through them everyday to reinforce the resonance that these are places one goes to to travel from one place to another.   Might they not be the site of useful crossroads in the Nevernever?

Yes, but depending on the airport and the city it might not be a crossroads you want to enter.  I'm pretty sure that's the reasoning behind Chicago being so big in the Nevernever.  O'hare is a HUGE airport and I'm sure it's influence is enough to effect a large portion of the city.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: UmbraLux on May 21, 2011, 06:54:22 PM
You make a reasonable case for fast food joints relating to each other.  My question is, what would relate them to the Nevernever?  Also, why would they go to a single (or relatively close) area in the Nevernever?

Raith WCVs use night clubs as access to the Nevernever, but that seems a function of the Raith's affinity more than the clubs'.  Is it a court of gluttony based WCVs using fast food restaurants? 

In my view, thaumaturgy or supernatural affinities may well open a gate to the Nevernever just about anywhere.  However that gate will generally go to a roughly coterminous location on the other side.  Shortcuts need affinity to a Nevernever location that isn't coterminous.  That really requires deciding what is in the Nevernever...

I figure there are some unique sites mirrored on the other side.  Stonehenge, Easter Island, Pyramids, Cenote, etc.  It takes knowing the geography of both sides to find good shortcuts.  Which is why such information is so valuable. 
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: finnmckool on May 22, 2011, 02:10:28 PM
Just remember that places are linked by concepts. What is the concept of any fast food restaurant?

A place where a large number of carnivorous go every day for an easy, prepackaged meal....

I was thinking something like this as well. Some sort of feeding place. I was thinking something a little more Langoliers than velociraptor.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Haru on May 23, 2011, 02:32:23 AM
I certainly like the idea, but Fast Food places don't really have to be similar, just because they have the same name. For example, in one of the bigger cities in my area, there are 2 McDonalds. In one of them, the people who work there always seem grumpy and unhappy, and most of the customers as well. The other one is quite the opposite, the employees are always smiling at you, seem to be genuinely happy most of the time and it is all in all a nicer place. In the nevernever, those places are probably pretty far away, though it is only 2 miles linear distance.

Another thing is a comment in White Night from Harry. During the battle in the deeps, when Cowl enters, Harry says that though both portals to the nevernever are very close (in fact, they are in the same cave, so the metaphysical capacity should be the same), they would probably not open to the same place in the nevernever, due to the different personalities and styles of magic he and Cowl use. That would mean, that not only the place, but what the place means to the person opening the portal means, plus their general state of mind. In this case, Harry said Thomas could find the place, because he was almost killed in the deeps, and with Harry being his brother and being there when it happened, it is only reasonable, that Harry would be able to open the gate to the same place Thomas would go.

Maybe it has something to do with the kind of power a place has. If the wizard is strong enough, he can imprint his vision onto the opening and have it open to where ever he wants. If not (which usually seems to be the case) he has to use the imprinted connection that has been formed over time. Cowl (and maybe the Gatekeeper on his way to Demonreach) would certainly be strong enough to do something like this, everyone else uses the usual routes.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: bobjob on May 23, 2011, 07:37:07 PM
I think all Burger Joints are guarded by a type of NeverNever creature known as the Grimace.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: admiralducksauce on May 23, 2011, 08:26:07 PM
I think all Burger Joints are guarded by a type of NeverNever creature known as the Grimace.

And that just got yoinked for my game.  :)
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Rechan on May 23, 2011, 09:02:36 PM
Nevernever attachments depend upon connections of meaning and such.

Let me tell you, even among the same Fast Food Chains, there can be a difference.

One can be run down and dirty, full of unhappy employees, accessable mainly by the interstate so its customers are only people passing through. Compare this to the single fast food joint in a small town which might be the only place teenagers can get a job - all that promise and eagerness, as well as regular customers.

One could be a place where several kids birthdays have been had. Another could have been robbed, someone even died there.

There's also probably a different atmosphere to a McDonalds in China, to one in the US.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: tetrasodium on June 04, 2011, 01:12:23 AM
There is, to a degree. In the latest book,
(click to show/hide)
Thomas (and plenty of other supernatural beings) is able to cross over into portions of the NeverNever that are close to his self.
Another example from Changes is
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: JayTee on June 04, 2011, 05:22:41 AM
Would all Burger King locations lead to the "Realm of the High Burger"? No.

Richard

I beg to differ.  ;)

City Name: Realm of the High Burger

Theme: War of the Burger Courts

Aspect: Big Mac vs Whopper

The Faces:

President For Life Ronald Mcdonald, Ruler of the Macdonald Oligarchy

The Enigmatic "King", Monarch of the Burger Crown.

Status Quo: Ronald and "The King", along with their respective Courts have been in a constant state of low-level warfare in the Nevernever since the mid-twentieth century, when the worship of the Burger started to rise to prominence worldwide. While there have been other contenders at times such as the Wendy's Aristocracy and the Hardee's Union, so far the ruling powers remain at their peak.

....I'll stop now before I get completely carried away.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: JustADude on June 04, 2011, 08:42:44 AM
....I'll stop now before I get completely carried away.

Awwwwww!!! It was just getting good!
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Team8Mum on June 05, 2011, 03:57:36 PM
I have been reliably informed by some one who works for burger king in the UK that whilst the city centre outlets vary a lot due to having to adapt to the building they are in, the DRIVE THRU outlets (at eleast in the uk) all arrive flat packed on site and all have an identical lay out...
Also they have the passing trade advantage of air ports.

Personally my bet would be that the same basic design us used for ALL fast food joints.
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on June 06, 2011, 01:31:55 PM
It depends on the age of the restaurant... You see restaurant design is a changing thing and a restaurant built in the 80s doesn't look like one build last week - unless it's been recent redone.  Some of the restaurants have playrooms, some don't, some years booths are hot, other years single seats on a long counter is where it's at, and then there's the times where free standing tables (not booths) is what the customer wants so that's what they get.  Once built the restaurant stays that way for a decade or more because remodeling is expensive.

In 20 years you'll look at one of the remaining "prepackaged drive throughs" outlets and say "I can remember when all the drive throughs looked like that" and feel old.

Richard
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Wyrdrune on June 14, 2011, 01:36:40 PM
@JayTee: god, that is good!

i can see my players getting drafted into that war, at first believing it some sort of fun - hey it's ronald mcdonald vs. the burger king! what harm can be done? - then finding out that the threat is very serious. [insert you dark plot with threatening consequences here.]
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Arcane on June 15, 2011, 01:47:11 AM
@JayTee: god, that is good!

i can see my players getting drafted into that war, at first believing it some sort of fun - hey it's ronald mcdonald vs. the burger king! what harm can be done? - then finding out that the threat is very serious. [insert you dark plot with threatening consequences here.]
Would be interesting to see the Sponsored Magic they provide.  :)
Title: Re: Burgerking and the Nevernever.
Post by: Sh33p on June 15, 2011, 02:17:16 AM
Would be interesting to see the Sponsored Magic they provide.  :)
Boiling fry grease-omancy.

Anyone who's ever had a fry burn'll know how horrifying such a power would be. :o